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Declining Numbers Impacting Competitive Balance


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1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Does a school need permission to not field a football team?

There are 100 high schools in Indiana that have "chosen" not to play varsity football.  No school is obligated by any entity to offer football on its athletic menu.  Its 100% choice.

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17 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Seems like that should be their choice, right?

 

I'm not seeing it.  Three guys make the difference between 1A and 2A and 5 between 2A and 3A?

I think it's a question of the players and not the numbers in 1A. 

It's just going to end up being a situation of gaming the numbers anyway for many that want to have a team regardless of whether they want to be LOS competitive or just "Friday night active."  A 1A team with 20 that wants to play is going to grab 2 kids from the band to say that they are on the team even if they don't play.  There will be similar issues at that 2A level as well.  I don't have an issue with "recommended" numbers, but required for something like extra-curricular activities seems like that would be the call of the individual school.  I'd also like to see some type of science behind the numbers because these look relatively arbitrary.  Is there any research on the ability to complete a season based on number of starting bodies?

I set the base number at 22 for Class 1A because it takes a minimum of 22 to complete a full 11 on 11 practice or scrimmage.  There is a safety element involved here that should not be overlooked.  Its not uncommon for a school like West Lafayette with 70 dressed players on the active roster going up against a school with 25 dressed players.  This is how catastrophic injuries occur.  

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17 hours ago, temptation said:

Related:

Can anyone tell me how/why Tech High School has suddenly become a premier destination in boys basketball?

They are bucking that inner-city trend but I cannot figure it out for the life of me.

Without digging too far into the weeds, Tech and Attucks have become destinations because their coaching staffs welcome transfers. Attucks has also had a tremendous amount of success recently. Tech won the title with Trey Lyles.

If transferring is being done legally by IHSAA rules, there's not much I say about it. This is happening all over the area, and some schools are open to it. Others are less open to it, but it's happening in every sport.

If it's not being done by the book, it's up to people to prove that. All I know is that you have kids playing at different schools in Marion County for all four of their years in school sometimes.

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39 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Without digging too far into the weeds, Tech and Attucks have become destinations because their coaching staffs welcome transfers. Attucks has also had a tremendous amount of success recently. Tech won the title with Trey Lyles.

If transferring is being done legally by IHSAA rules, there's not much I say about it. This is happening all over the area, and some schools are open to it. Others are less open to it, but it's happening in every sport.

If it's not being done by the book, it's up to people to prove that. All I know is that you have kids playing at different schools in Marion County for all four of their years in school sometimes.

How or why could a school not be open to transfers?  If a kid moves into your school district are there coaches who wouldn't let them play because they transferred in?  Hard to imagine.  If the kid moves in and both ADs sign off then I see no problem.

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54 minutes ago, HHF said:

I set the base number at 22 for Class 1A because it takes a minimum of 22 to complete a full 11 on 11 practice or scrimmage.  There is a safety element involved here that should not be overlooked.  Its not uncommon for a school like West Lafayette with 70 dressed players on the active roster going up against a school with 25 dressed players.  This is how catastrophic injuries occur.  

Again, I'd like to see some science in this.  Anecdotally, it's an issue of can vs. will. 

I'm not sure who WL is facing on their schedule, but I'll bite.  They play a 1A school and a couple of 2A schools in their schedule, but none of those have down to 25 dressed players.  I'm not sure if WL plays anyone who has 25 on a roster.

I guess, before I buy into considering this as a premise, perhaps we could get an idea of just what we are talking about here?  How many schools are out there that currently wouldn't make your cutoffs?  Are they still competitive and/or safe for what they want to do?  As an example, in 2019, Trader's Point dressed roughly 19 kids for a sectional championship against LCC.  They lost a total of two games in 2019: one to eventual state runner-up, Indy Lutheran, and the sectional championship to state winner, LCC.  Would have been a shame if they were unable to compete that season over an arbitrary number.

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50 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Without digging too far into the weeds, Tech and Attucks have become destinations because their coaching staffs welcome transfers. Attucks has also had a tremendous amount of success recently. Tech won the title with Trey Lyles.

If transferring is being done legally by IHSAA rules, there's not much I say about it. This is happening all over the area, and some schools are open to it. Others are less open to it, but it's happening in every sport.

If it's not being done by the book, it's up to people to prove that. All I know is that you have kids playing at different schools in Marion County for all four of their years in school sometimes.

Transfers do not have the same impact in football that they do in basketball.  

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6 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Again, I'd like to see some science in this.  Anecdotally, it's an issue of can vs. will. 

I'm not sure who WL is facing on their schedule, but I'll bite.  They play a 1A school and a couple of 2A schools in their schedule, but none of those have down to 25 dressed players.  I'm not sure if WL plays anyone who has 25 on a roster.

I guess, before I buy into considering this as a premise, perhaps we could get an idea of just what we are talking about here?  How many schools are out there that currently wouldn't make your cutoffs?  Are they still competitive and/or safe for what they want to do?  As an example, in 2019, Trader's Point dressed roughly 19 kids for a sectional championship against LCC.  They lost a total of two games in 2019: one to eventual state runner-up, Indy Lutheran, and the sectional championship to state winner, LCC.  Would have been a shame if they were unable to compete that season over an arbitrary number.

How about a little common sense?

Does everything need to be proven by a set of scientific facts?  Are we not capable of seeing competitive imbalance using the eye test?

 

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Just now, HHF said:

How about a little common sense?

Does everything need to be proven by a set of scientific facts?  Are we not capable of seeing competitive imbalance using the eye test?

 

Common sense tells you that Foxbat just provided a real life example of a team fielding 19 players who more than held their own.

Feel free to share an example of a team fielding low numbers that has directly lead to a “catastrophic” injury.

Thanks

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22 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Common sense tells you that Foxbat just provided a real life example of a team fielding 19 players who more than held their own.

Feel free to share an example of a team fielding low numbers that has directly lead to a “catastrophic” injury.

Thanks

Theres always a "Northwood" story to tell.  We/ve been fortunate to avoid catastrophic injury mainly thru the use of the running clock and mercy rule.  

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21 minutes ago, HHF said:

Theres always a "Northwood" story to tell.  We/ve been fortunate to avoid catastrophic injury mainly thru the use of the running clock and mercy rule.  

So you have no examples of catastrophic injuries and your arbitrary number isn't founded or based upon anything? 

Noted.

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26 minutes ago, HHF said:

How about a little common sense?

Does everything need to be proven by a set of scientific facts?  Are we not capable of seeing competitive imbalance using the eye test?

 

Before I run out and tell a bunch of faceless teams that they can't play this year because of an arbitrary number that someone came up with, I'd like to look at the data.  I'd like to see is it tied to numbers or something else?  Look, we've already endured a thread about how it's not safe or competitive for the bottom half of 6A to play against Ben Davis and Carmel, yet the defining difference between 5A and 6A in your proposal is a mere 5 players.  Forgive me if I see waning internal validity in the argument and would like to see something else.

If it really is such a big thing, there should be all kinds of examples that we can point to to at least start looking at the problem.  You tossed out WL as an example, yet there's no one that I've seen WL play in the past decade or so, or longer, that I can think of that even comes close to your example and they play in a conference with 1A and 2A schools.  Likewise, I threw out a very recent example based on a game that I watched in person where a team with 19 players actually led the eventual state champs, with a roster of nearly 45 players no less, by a point at halftime in a sectional final.  If you don't have the numbers or just want to play in generalities, then by all means, feel free to do so; but don't get mad at the rest of us who might be willing to listen to your plan or give it consideration and ask for something to help us along in that evaluation.  I'm not the one making the initial premise.

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So you have no examples of catastrophic injuries and your arbitrary number isn't founded or based upon anything? 

Noted.

I've read on The GID about serious injuries suffered by Benton Central and Bishop Noll players due primarily to the extreme physicality imbalance between themselves and their opponents.  Ive given my logic on the 22 starting point for class A.  The suggested MPS for the rest of the classes are assigned relative to the starting point and the percentage increase in enrollment bands.  Not a perfect science, but a start.  

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24 minutes ago, HHF said:

I've read on The GID about serious injuries suffered by Benton Central and Bishop Noll players due primarily to the extreme physicality imbalance between themselves and their opponents.  Ive given my logic on the 22 starting point for class A.  The suggested MPS for the rest of the classes are assigned relative to the starting point and the percentage increase in enrollment bands.  Not a perfect science, but a start.  

What type of injuries? Like severe head trauma, paralysis, etc? Or we talking about unfortunate but normal football injuries such as torn ligaments, fractured bones, sprains, etc that occur at all levels of play regardless the size or strength of the athlete?

Edited by Footballking16
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1 minute ago, HHF said:

I've read on The GID about serious injuries suffered by Benton Central and Bishop Noll players due primarily to the extreme physicality imbalance between themselves and their opponents.  Ive given my logic on the 22 starting point for class A.  The suggested MPS for the rest of the classes are assigned relative to the starting point and the percentage increase in enrollment bands.  Not a perfect science, but a start.  

Benton Central is a 3A school that had a roster of 37 last season.  7 more than your cutoff "numbers."  Your numbers wouldn't have impacted them or their "serious injuries."  Now where do we go from here.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What type of injuries? Like severe head trauma, paralysis, etc? Or we talking about unfortunate but normal football injuries such as torn ligaments, fractured bones, sprains, etc that occur at all level of play regardless the size or strength of the athlete?

Neck injuries and compound fractures

You bring up an intertesting point with your reference to "all levels of play."

This goes to the root of the problem.  Football, more than any sport, goes to great lengths to create "levels of play" in an effort to provide a level playing field and to mitigate one yteams potential inherent strengths over another.

Pee wee

Midget

Bantam

Youth

Junior High

Freshman

JV

Varsity

Small College

Mid College

Major College

Professional

 

When two teams show up to play on a Friday night, one with 70 players dressed and a few D1 athletes, the other with 20 skinny kids and a 2 man coaching staff, something is clearly out of balance.

 

5 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Benton Central is a 3A school that had a roster of 37 last season.  7 more than your cutoff "numbers."  Your numbers wouldn't have impacted them or their "serious injuries."  Now where do we go from here.  

 

How many were freshman?

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19 minutes ago, HHF said:

When two teams show up to play on a Friday night, one with 70 players dressed and a few D1 athletes, the other with 20 skinny kids and a 2 man coaching staff, something is clearly out of balance.

How many times a year does this occurrence happen? Often, seldom? Are you fudging numbers and using more hyperbolic nonsense? 

Sounds like a scheduling problem if anything to me. That can be solved without contracting a football program ya know?

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5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

How many times a year does this occurrence happen? Often, seldom? Are you fudging numbers and using more hyperbolic nonsense? 

Sounds like a scheduling problem if anything to me. That can be solved without contracting a football program ya know?

If that football program is hyper uncompetitive over a period of time and causes other problems including game cancellations, contraction should definitely be on the table as an option.  

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18 minutes ago, HHF said:

If that football program is hyper uncompetitive over a period of time and causes other problems including game cancellations, contraction should definitely be on the table as an option.  

That didn't answer a single question I asked though?

How many times a year does a team with 70 varsity players with a few D1 athletes play a team full of 20 skinny kids and a 2 man coaching staff?

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

That didn't answer a single question I asked though?

How many times a year does a team with 70 varsity players with a few D1 athletes play a team full of 20 skinny kids and a 2 man coaching staff?

Not talking about DT's specific point...

but at several JV & Freshman games in the MIC, I have seen some teams come in with upwards of 50+ players and some of the other teams only having 15-20 players. 

It's not a varsity issue whatsoever IMO. 

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6 minutes ago, HHF said:

 

How many were freshman?

Showing 7.  Still made your number at 30.

Is this a new addition to your number cutoffs?  Now it has to been non-freshman?

Incidentally, WL only had 53 on the roster last season ... and 11 of those were listed as freshman.

Using your comparison issue, WL and Benton Central, which actually play each other every year, would have been 42 non-freshman vs. 30 non-freshman.  For 3A, seems close enough on straight numbers on paper.

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20 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Showing 7.  Still made your number at 30.

Is this a new addition to your number cutoffs?  Now it has to been non-freshman?

Incidentally, WL only had 53 on the roster last season ... and 11 of those were listed as freshman.

Using your comparison issue, WL and Benton Central, which actually play each other every year, would have been 42 non-freshman vs. 30 non-freshman.  For 3A, seems close enough on straight numbers on paper.

He'll find one example from a game played sometime back in 2014 that fits his agenda.

Give him till the end of the day. 

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8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

That didn't answer a single question I asked though?

How many times a year does a team with 70 varsity players with a few D1 athletes play a team full of 20 skinny kids and a 2 man coaching staff?

Dont have a clue.  One is too many in my view.  It should never happen if the sport is managed correctly.  It only takes one game for a 260lb kid like GK to run over a 130lb DB and its game over.  

7 minutes ago, MICFan34 said:

Not talking about DT's specific point...

but at several JV & Freshman games in the MIC, I have seen some teams come in with upwards of 50+ players and some of the other teams only having 15-20 players. 

It's not a varsity issue whatsoever IMO. 

Its a high school football issue.  

In the MIC, its more evident at the lower levels.  Kids get hurt in those games too.

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18 minutes ago, HHF said:

Dont have a clue.  One is too many in my view.  It should never happen if the sport is managed correctly.  It only takes one game for a 260lb kid like GK to run over a 130lb DB and its game over.  

GK hasn't played high school football in 4 years and is a generational type talent that you'll likely never see at West Lafayette or the 3A level again. GK would hurt a lot of 6A DB's in certain one on one situations. How many kids have been personally injured by GK type players to the extent they need to shut down their football program?

Of all the hills to die on this is your place? My god my expectations for you were low but this is incredibly low. 

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6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

He'll find one example from a game played sometime back in 2014 that fits his agenda.

Give him till the end of the day. 

BC is 10-80 since 2013 under 5 different head coaches.  Perhaps they should consider contraction.  

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

GK hasn't played high school football in 4 years and is a generational type talent that you'll likely never see at West Lafayette or the 3A level again. GK would hurt a lot of 6A DB's in certain one on one situations. How many kids have been personally injured by GK type players to the extent they need to shut down their football program?

Of all the hills to die on this is your place? My god my expectations for you were low but this is incredibly low. 

LOL

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