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Substitution question


crimsonace1
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A scenario from Friday's IU-Illinois game (which I was able to see despite an hour's drive from my game thanks to college games lasting 4+ hours). 

Final drive. IU is in hurry-up offense. Apparently it subbed, so Illinois - the defense - uses the opportunity to replace about eight players. IU snaps the ball while the ILL players are running off the field. Ball is snapped, incomplete pass results, flag thrown for illegal substitution. 

After a long discussion, flag is picked up, clock is reset to the time of the previous snap and essentially, the previous play was voided. Because IU had subbed a player, I believe that's the proper application of the rule (although the announcers were baffled - I caught the first part of the play on radio and then saw the aftermath on TV). 

It got me to thinking what the high school rule is in such a situation. If the offense makes a pre-snap substitution, does it have to give the defense the opportunity to change its personnel before the snap? If the ball is snapped (I know one official - the R or U - will often hold the play until the defense's chance to sub happens in the college level) before that happens, would it be adjudicated in the same way (no play, reset time and ball to previous spot)? 

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2 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

A scenario from Friday's IU-Illinois game (which I was able to see despite an hour's drive from my game thanks to college games lasting 4+ hours). 

Final drive. IU is in hurry-up offense. Apparently it subbed, so Illinois - the defense - uses the opportunity to replace about eight players. IU snaps the ball while the ILL players are running off the field. Ball is snapped, incomplete pass results, flag thrown for illegal substitution. 

After a long discussion, flag is picked up, clock is reset to the time of the previous snap and essentially, the previous play was voided. Because IU had subbed a player, I believe that's the proper application of the rule (although the announcers were baffled - I caught the first part of the play on radio and then saw the aftermath on TV). 

It got me to thinking what the high school rule is in such a situation. If the offense makes a pre-snap substitution, does it have to give the defense the opportunity to change its personnel before the snap? If the ball is snapped (I know one official - the R or U - will often hold the play until the defense's chance to sub happens in the college level) before that happens, would it be adjudicated in the same way (no play, reset time and ball to previous spot)? 

That was an odd call....just looked like the officials were not on the same page. The telling the QB to wait moved away too soon. 

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13 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

It got me to thinking what the high school rule is in such a situation. If the offense makes a pre-snap substitution, does it have to give the defense the opportunity to change its personnel before the snap? If the ball is snapped (I know one official - the R or U - will often hold the play until the defense's chance to sub happens in the college level) before that happens, would it be adjudicated in the same way (no play, reset time and ball to previous spot)? 

The NF code does not contain a “match up” substitution rule like NCAA. Teams are on their own with respect to timeliness of substitutions.

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On 9/3/2022 at 7:01 PM, crimsonace1 said:

A scenario from Friday's IU-Illinois game (which I was able to see despite an hour's drive from my game thanks to college games lasting 4+ hours). 

Final drive. IU is in hurry-up offense. Apparently it subbed, so Illinois - the defense - uses the opportunity to replace about eight players. IU snaps the ball while the ILL players are running off the field. Ball is snapped, incomplete pass results, flag thrown for illegal substitution. 

After a long discussion, flag is picked up, clock is reset to the time of the previous snap and essentially, the previous play was voided. Because IU had subbed a player, I believe that's the proper application of the rule (although the announcers were baffled - I caught the first part of the play on radio and then saw the aftermath on TV). 

It got me to thinking what the high school rule is in such a situation. If the offense makes a pre-snap substitution, does it have to give the defense the opportunity to change its personnel before the snap? If the ball is snapped (I know one official - the R or U - will often hold the play until the defense's chance to sub happens in the college level) before that happens, would it be adjudicated in the same way (no play, reset time and ball to previous spot)? 

I tried to go back and find the play by play in a box score but haven't found one yet. I know the announced said they voided the play, but the R's announcement was not heard on the broadcast. I thought the ball was snapped at the succeeding spot with no clock adjustment. They treated it as if the penalty for illegal substitution was declined. The replays I saw I didn't see an IU player sub so I assumed the Center Judge reacted to seeing the defense subbing and assumed the offense had subbed. The R pushed him back because there was no substitution. If that was true the mistake was attempting to prevent IU from snapping the ball. A friend said IU did sub one player so the Center Judge was right to hold up the play but he should have stayed until Illinois completed their sub. Illinois was being slow in their sub and if IU didn't like being held up they shouldn't have subbed. If the latter is what happened it's possible the flagged was picked up (would have been declined anyway) and they went with the result of the play. It's also possible it happened as you said it with going back to the previous spot and previous clock, but that's now how I remember it at the time. Regardless the officials made a mistake on how they handled the play. It was a crazy situation.

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8 minutes ago, JustRules said:

I tried to go back and find the play by play in a box score but haven't found one yet. I know the announced said they voided the play, but the R's announcement was not heard on the broadcast. I thought the ball was snapped at the succeeding spot with no clock adjustment. They treated it as if the penalty for illegal substitution was declined. The replays I saw I didn't see an IU player sub so I assumed the Center Judge reacted to seeing the defense subbing and assumed the offense had subbed. The R pushed him back because there was no substitution. If that was true the mistake was attempting to prevent IU from snapping the ball. A friend said IU did sub one player so the Center Judge was right to hold up the play but he should have stayed until Illinois completed their sub. Illinois was being slow in their sub and if IU didn't like being held up they shouldn't have subbed. If the latter is what happened it's possible the flagged was picked up (would have been declined anyway) and they went with the result of the play. It's also possible it happened as you said it with going back to the previous spot and previous clock, but that's now how I remember it at the time. Regardless the officials made a mistake on how they handled the play. It was a crazy situation.

That was how I saw it.  The CJ reacted to the mass substitution and assumed IU had subbed.  It appears then he looked to the wing on IU's sideline and got a signal that IU did not sub and backed off.  But the play was definitely chaos and I couldn't hear the TV at the bar where I was watching. 

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In a similar situation (2 minute, hurry up, end of half, etc), what are the mechanics involved in equipment related issues? 

e.g. Play ends in bounds, defensive player's helmet comes off (which means he has to come out), offense is trying to line up and run a play while he's still picking  up his helmet.  Do officials stop the game clock until he gets off?  Does he have to get off on his own?

I've seen equipment stuff handled different ways in end of half situations, wondering what is "correct"....

Sometimes its that DE that has that one shoe that just comes off at the most opportune times....🤪

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