foxbat

Or be "the guy."

Lowest last cycle in 1A was School for the Deaf at 121 and followed by Rock Creek Academy and Traders Point at 128. The top of the pack is Milan at 380. That's about a 3:1 ratio top to bottom. The two teams that played in LOS this year, CC and SA, are 365 and 352 respectively. The middle schools are North Davies (32) and LCC (33) at 296 and 287 respectively.

Red pen ... blue pen ... compromise ... purple.

So the pen is purple? 😀

Here's the telling line that says that it isn't @DT unless he purposely tossed that in as 180 headfake. Some suggest that private schools have an unfair advantage. It’s a false argument. All the private schools are in the first four classes in terms of student population. If they’re good, they’ll have to play up a class because of the success factor. Given his headstrong multiplier stance, if he had to write the above, I expect it looked like this at his desk ... NSFW:

I bet you could find 24 teams in Indiana to play 8-man ball. It would start with many schools in 1A and potentially homeschool teams, but I'd venture a guess that there are some 3A/4A schools that would even opt for an 8-man team as opposed to trying to continue to compete in 3A/4A with 11-man ball. I know that 7-on-7 at the high school level tends to be treated more like camp/scrimmage, but there are already youth programs that have been doing 7-on-7 and 9-on-9 contact ball for regular seasons either in response to numbers or to create more teams and more opportunities for kids to play. And some of these are in programs that feed into schools as large as 5A ... so the concept isn't too foreign.

NCC shows Jeff with 19 football titles dating back to 1984 and Harrison with just 1 in 2016. And the year that Harrison won it, they actually shared it with Kokomo. Jeff has flat out won it or shared it for the last four seasons straight. With that said, Harrison has won the all-sport crown the last six years in a row. I think that you are absolutely correct that Shanley is a significant part of Jeff's not being overrun. While Jeff and Harrison are not yet discussed in state conversations at this point, I think the amount of relative progress at both schools recently is something to commend both of their coaches for. I'm hoping that both coaches stick around and continue to build those programs.

OT: My mom does too, but her quarterly estimated tax stuff is tied to her retirement distributions and investments income rather than employment income as she's been long-ago retired. I know that she definitely gets a refund if there's over-payment of those estimated taxes ... and vice-versa an additional bill if she's short at the end of the year on the estimated taxes. One tax-related item where you don't get the money back is FSAs. In that one, if you don't spend it, you lose it. But that's a whole bunch different than a multiplier scenario as it's individually-based and the amount to put in the FSA is selected by the individual, not an external entity. Matter of fact, the individual figures out whether they even want to do it or not. In that case, you still get the whole tax savings whether you use it or not, but it's possible to be at a net loss in the whole thing depending on how much you leave on the table.

All of the posts, until the "wiseman" post focused on that. BTW, if you want to focus on COVID and SES, then show your numbers? The only thing we have to focus on is DATA THAT WE HAVE. If you want to produce some data that backs your premise, by all means please do so. But again, per your own admonishment please limit it to Jeff and Harrison and this year or future. I mean, if we want to focus on the current data that we have, then THIS SEASON ... the only COVID season in Indiana history ... Jeff beat West Lafayette, Harrison, Kokomo, McCutcheon, Logansport, Muncie Central, and Lake Central to make it a 7-for-7 sweep over schools with better R/FL ratios AND did it in a COVID year. Their single loss of the season comes from Merrillville who has a F/RL ratio of 61.11 compared to Jeff's 61.44. If you've got something else ON TOPIC regarding COVID and SES and Jeff and Harrison, definitely would love to see it.

Yes, but if you don't make that money, you get those estimated taxes back. If you make more, I'm pretty sure the IRS doesn't say "c'est la vie." 🙂

Perhaps they would ... but that doesn't mean that SES is driving Harrison success. It's an interesting attempt to make it the issue, but there's much more. What brought Coach Shanely and Coach Moore to Jeff? It wasn't lack of opportunity. Harrison's community has done a nice job of investing in Coach Peebles and giving him time to implement/build a program and not running him out on a rail or riding his butt in the first couple of seasons just because there wasn't turn around immediately. If I were a young coach that's EXACTLY what I'd be looking for ... not necessarily the tax rolls. If it's all about tax rolls, then at least more than half the schools in Indiana are screwed. Thanks goodness there are some more level heads manning the coaching ranks of Indiana schools. Harrison has had the SES as well as the differential with Jeff for nearly three decades worth of school seasons as reported on Harrell's. If SES were a bigger contributor, that would have reared it's ugly head much earlier. It would also likely be seen using the other data point in the area of similar enrollment size which is McCutcheon. Even tossing in West Lafayette, which has an even better F/RL number than Harrison and McCutcheon, Jeff is still 2-1 and only lost to West Lafayette in the year that West Lafayette won state. They are 2-0 in the last two meeting. Even against LCC which has an SES that looks much more like West Lafayette, Jeff is 1-0 ... beating LCC 54-0 in that meeting. Against for other schools with better F/RL numbers, Jeff beats all four on the field and has done so for nearly three decades with two of them and for all four in the last decade and all four in the last five seasons too. And as for how this thread is trending ... SERIOUSLY? YOU introduced the idea of SES ... YOU started the trending. There wasn't talk of anything SES-related until your "wiseman" post.

And therein is the bigger issue with a multiplier vs. SF. SF is based on what you did, not based on what is expected. Imagine in January telling the IRS that you expect to make $120,000 ... $10,000/month. They say, "OK your tax for the coming year is going to be $10,000 and you have to write the check up front." Then in mid-February you lose your job and are unemployed for the rest of the year. Your income for the year ends up being $15,000. Under multiplier it'd be "tough sh*t" that's what you were supposed to make, we don't really care what you did and you basically get stuck paying $10,000 on $15,000 income while someone else who made $120,000 and didn't lose the job also pays the $10,000. And the person who thought they were going to make $120,000, but got a better job and actually made $200,000 also pays $10,000 for the year. Under SF, we wait until the end of the year to see what you did ... performance ... and, if you did more, then you "pay" for it.

Might want to pickup that mic because why would Jeff have had so much success against Harrison? For the past 27 seasons, Jeff is 21-10 over Harrison ... there were four seaons where they played each other twice and in three of those seasons they split ... and, as mentioned above, in the last 10 seasons, Jeff has won 8 of those. In some of those seasons, the only game that Jeff If it takes 27 years to lose at a roughly 2 1/2-to-1 margin and 4-1 in the last 10 seasons, it would appear that the F/RL might not be mush of an influence. And, at that rate, Harrison's not going to "make it up on volume." Jeff is a little bit less successful with McCutcheon, but still holds a [edit: 14-10 15-10] gap with them and, in the past 10 seasons, is 6-4 ... and is 4-1 for the last five seasons including four straight wins for the last four seasons. Again, at a 4-1 ratio, McCutcheon's not going to be making it up on volume either. Sounds like a good talking point until you realize that Purdue's state appropriations amounted to 14% of its FY2021 Operating Plan. There are also plenty of state-owned buildings at Purdue that should be maintained by the state that end up getting maintained by Purdue due to shortages in appropriations. Also, there are plenty of folks at Jeff who are Purdue families too including mine ... my taxes go straight into Jeff as well as my support in fundraising efforts since three of my kids attended or are attending Jeff. I mean if you really wanted to take a swipe at folks who get much more of their paycheck supported by taxpayer money perhaps policemen/sheriffs, firefighters, mail personnel, city water works and roadworks, public high school employees, judges, prosecutors and defenders, and many other government employees who keep the lights on and society functioning with a higher percentage of "government subsidy" for their jobs. That's probably not a good or decent thing to do though. Of course, there are others of your other favorite targets, like SIA, that might be better more acceptable targets that get that "government consideration" that you speak of.

The largest FOOTBALL class in Harrison history ... this was also mentioned in another post in the thread. And this is BEFORE any impact of new housing areas. It's not a question of getting new people into the school but making sure to convert/maintain numbers ALREADY IN YOUR HALLWAYS.

From what perspective? The kids that play at LCC are almost all from the Catholic schools. I think there's one kid on the current LCC team who was a Klondike kid in the youth program, but he's Catholic and came over in junior high. Outside of that, there really aren't many kids that haven't spent much of their lives in the LCC youth program, the Catholic elementary schools/junior high, or the Catholic pews. There are a couple of brothers who played recently who aren't Catholic, but they played youth football with LCC. As a tradeoff, my son played soccer for their church school. O'Shea spent many years at McCutcheon before he went to LCC and also I think he was at Attica too before McCutcheon, so he'd been a fixture around the Lafayette area for a while. I actually think each of the other schools' performance is tied more toward their own coaching movements. For Jeff, it kind of started with Moore coming in and then Shanley building up that program. Peebles at Harrison has taken a bit longer to get traction, but he's getting good buy-in from what I can see. When you end up with the largest freshman class in school history you've got to be doing some things right that resonate. West Lafayette has been pretty strong under Fry and Overley had plenty of success too. I'm not as familiar with McCutcheon although I know that recently they changed out their youth program to all flag. That's not necessarily a bad thing as I think RCHS has done the same thing and has had good results.

There isn't a whole bunch of movement between Jeff and Harrison, but you are correct that Jeff had a significant player for three years that was a Harrison kid ... that kid has moved on again from Jeff. They also had a kid a couple years before that, in a significant position, who was a West Lafayette kid for a while. I do have a colleague who, many many years ago lived in teh Harrison district, but his daughter attended Jeff due to the arts; especially when the Rohrman Center went in. I think Harrison would have to worry more about kids edging over to West Lafayette. I'm not sure about this, and it may just be a rumor, but I'd heard that West Lafayette was moving toward open-enrollment.

The current freshman class is pretty good size. I believe that this year's freshman football squad is the largest in the school's history. As I mentioned before, they hung tight with Westfield 28-21. If I'm not mistaken, someone posted in another thread that Westfield's freshman team was undefeated this year. I tried to see if I could find scores for Westfield's freshman to gauge how that 28-21 game compared to other teams that Westfield's freshman played, but the only thing I found was a schedule from 2017 and MAxpreps doesn't have an entry for Westfield's freshman football. That poster was saying that the Westfield freshmen were a solid squad this year which they thought would bode well for Westfield in future seasons. Regarding the all-sport trophy, it appears that Harrison has taken that from 2015-2020 per the NCC site: https://northcentralconference.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/59/2020/09/all-sports.pdf.

In number of students ... yes. In terms of program performance, Jeff and Harrison have always been fairly close in how they perform. Jeff's had a couple of better years recently as they've crawled out of the funk they were in for a long time while Harrison was also climbing out. If you look at the last ten seasons, Jeff has beaten Harrison eight. The last two seasons though have been more impressive for 5A Harrison even though they lost as they lost by only 7 last season and had a shootout with Jeff in the lost this season 76-55. More impressive for Harrison this season though was that they dropped one game to 6A Jeff, a game to 6A Westfield, a game to 4A Roncalli by a score of 49-45, and a 33-21 season-ender to 5A Zionsville. Interestingly, while the varsity dropped their game with Westfield 34-10, the freshman only lost 28-21. There are high hopes for Harrison.

I understand where you are coming from, but as I look at this, it's a school/coach issue as much as it is a kid issue. Football is a team sport and while folks get heated in the course of a play and sometimes right after a hit you shove someone or say something, no one should ever feel that they have a right, green light, ability, or anything else to leave the sideline like that, run across the field, and strike someone else. Youth ball may be different than high school ball, but frankly it shouldn't be. I've coached 18 seasons of youth ball and never, in all of my years of coaching, ever had to worry about any of my players talking back to ref, pitching a fit on the field, striking another player after a play even if they were hit first, etc. In every season we have a couple early practices long before we ever play our first game where I sit the kids down and tell them exactly what I expect their behavior to be and exactly what I expect it not to be. We talk about not talking back to a ref or questioning a call. We talk about if they have an issue they tell me about it and I'll talk with the ref or the other coach. We talk about always walking away if you are struck after a play and letting the refs and me worry about what will happen. We also talk about helping the opponent up after a tackle and, if offered a hand up by an opponent accepting that offer even if you took a big hit. We also talk about the fact that they are part of something bigger and that their actions, both on and off the field, are not just reflective upon themselves, but also reflective of their teammates, their coaches, their program, and their schools. Then as part of the talk before the first game I remind them of that and add one more thing, "To act like you've been there before. Be humble in victory, and gracious in defeat." I love it when my kids perform on the field, but I love it just as much when they respect the game, the refs, the opponents, and their own teammates. And my players all know that and know without a doubt exactly how I expect them to play and to act. It's a harsh thing to have happen, but if it happened on one of my teams, I would hold no ill will against the association and I would explain it to my team that the fault was mine and the player's for not doing a better job looking out for our team.

Oh yeah ... @gonzoron's a confirmed Rushphile from many years back. I think @Irishman's in that group too.

@Donnie Baker's a big fan too! He often makes Rush references over the Hoosier Conference threads.

Does this answer it? 2-3 Classification by Enrollment; Different Classes Assignment; Change Class AssignmentSchool enrollment figures used for classifying Schools shall be the enrollment in grades 9-12 for all students, as certified in the annual report filed with the State Department of Education in a classification year. a. Schools with single gender enrollment shall double the certified enrollment figures for classification purposes. b. A School may be assigned to different Classes in different sports. c. A School shall be assigned to a Class by the IHSAA and shall enter the IHSAA tournament in that assigned Class unless it notifies the Association, in writing, that it wishes to move up One (1) or more Classes. This notification shall (1) accompany the submission of the School’s enrollment figures and (2) be effective for the succeeding Two (2) years. A School may choose to move up in a specific sport/s. This was also in the FAQ section: How are Schools, during Team Sports reclassifications, placed in classes when there are Schools which change Classes because of the Success Factor?A. Application of rule 2-2, the Reclassification Rule and rule 2-5, the Success Factor Rule, determine the placement and the number of Schools in each Class. During reclassification in a Team Sport, Schools are placed in Classes based upon Rule 2 - Classification of Schools22enrollment pursuant to rule 2-2; these Classes are customarily of equal size. A School subject to the Success Factor is then placed into a larger-enrollment Class pursuant to rule 2-5. In Team Sports other than football, even if this re-classing results in a Class having more Schools than another Class, rule 2-2(g) prohibits moving any School into a lower-enrollment Class. However, in the Team Sport of football, rule 2-2(g) is inapplicable, and after a School is re-classed into a larger-enrollment Class pursuant to rule 2-5, the smallest School in that Class shall move down to the next lower-enrollment Class in order to have equal sized Classes. https://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/about ihsaa/2020-21 By-Laws.pdf Not necessarily State Law, but could be By-Law.

Unless the premise being provided is rendered incorrect by the numbers. 🙂

I've always enjoyed the idea of mixed-class conferences and thought that they were an effective way to allow more diversity in play and experience. Even when LCC's varsity was playing in the equivalent of a 1A conference back in the HHC, the youth program and the junior high program were playing in mixed class environments. The youth program was at one time playing teams that fed into 1A, 3A, 4A, and 5A high schools and the junior high was playing teams that fed into 1A, 2A, 3A, and 5A if I recall correctly. Now that LCC is in the Hoosier it's kind of the same across the board from youth to graduation. I'd hate to see the Hoosier dissolve or drastically change. Don't know how many other conferences have a similar setup.

Don't know about permanent expulsion, but definitely a lengthy suspension. I'm also all for charges being pressed, but is there a way to insulate the ref from "being the bad guy" and "ruining the kid's life?" Because you know that's how it's going to be framed. Can the school file charges on behalf of the ref? That way, it's not the ref having to be the "bad guy," but the accountability for proceedings being initiated and carried out closer to the person who caused the action as opposed to the victim? I get this kind of stuff when I catch a kid cheating ... somehow it's my fault and I'm ruining his life by giving him a zero on the exam.