BTF

On 4/7/2022 at 8:00 AM, temptation said:

Illustrating just one of my points above, of the last 10 NFL Super Bowl champions, SEVEN have had higher ranked offenses than defenses for the season when total yards are calculated, including the last five in a row.  

Perhaps at one time, the "defense wins championships" mantra was true, but the current data says otherwise.  That doesn't stop folks from trotting this one out annually however.

Interesting stat. It makes sense at the NFL level. The talent of the players is so off the charts, a team can prosper by slinging the football through the air. I think it's different at the high school and college level though. Especially high school. Maybe I'm an idiot, but if I'm a coach, I building my team around defense, ground game, and limited punting. 

How did Vince Lombardi put it? "There are four potential outcomes when passing the football, and three of them are bad."

On 4/3/2022 at 8:30 PM, Irishman said:

I had the opposite view. Looking at the bowl game; Coan got all the reps. I think Kelly is the reason that Buchner and Pyke saw the field at all during the season. With Kelly gone, the offense was completely in the hands of Rees. 

I was speaking of Pyne's opportunities when he got them. He looked very good, but Kelly continued his commitment to Coan. 

At least Kelly knew when to set Coan on the bench. Coan playing every rep against Oklahoma State was ultimately their death sentence. The regular season proved that Coan will go 3-5 offensive series in a row with stagnant offense. That's where Buchner and Pyne came in and helped the team tremendously. In fact, if it weren't for the performances of all three quarterbacks, Notre Dame wouldn't have been playing in a New Year Six bowl game. If it's not broke, don't fix it. Freeman/Rees tried fixing something that was already working, and as a result, have started the new era 0-1. 

8 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

Don’t forget that Luers, the smallest SAC school (*private school), just shared the conference championship with Carroll last season.

I don't see that being an annual thing. I hope it is as I love the competition and enjoy seeing Luers in the mix. But that's something that happens once every ten years or so. 

Fort Wayne could be trending that way as well. Carroll took a share of the SAC title in 2021. Homestead took the title outright in 2019 and 2020. Three years may not be enough to draw any conclusions, but as the student populations of those two schools continue to grow, the likelihood of them staying at the top is pretty strong. These suburban schools with large student bodies and a wealth of resources are becoming too much to overcome for the city schools. We'll see what 2022 brings. Right now it's a crapshoot between Snider, Dwenger, Homestead, and Carroll. 

6 hours ago, temptation said:

Nah, to me being a member of "the masses" means it is more likely you are an idiot in this day and age.

#81million

You have a valid point. Not as it relates to this topic though.

2 hours ago, temptation said:

Those same people assume that I love auto racing and go to the Indy 500 annually when I tell them I’m from Indianapolis.

Then according to the masses, you DO love the Indy 500 and go to it annually, even though you don't. 

If the masses say you are a Blue Blood, then you're probably a Blue Blood regardless of what the minority think. 

13 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

With the implementation of the transfer portal AND NIL, the definition of "Blue Blood" will be altered drastically.  Student athletes basically getting a free pass to transfer from one program to another without sitting out.... and the same student athletes signing NIL deals that sometimes rival pro contracts.  College programs will soon offer, whether it's public or not, a deal that athletes looking to transfer will be able to choose which school solely based on the worth of the NIL deal. Which means all those payments made by school supporters that used to be under the table, can very easily by made legal within the parameters of NIL. 

 

Blue Bloods will remain in tact I think. We're just going to see a whole new crop of powers...................Jackson State. 

12 hours ago, temptation said:

LOL.  I love the “college basketball is better when” take by all of the talking heads.  

College basketball is the last great hope for the underdog/little guy.  The St. Peter’s, FGCU, VCU, George Mason’s and old Butler teams come to mind.  That is why the casual fan who doesn’t care about basketball, or the regular season tunes in every March (plus the gambling element, lol).

The little guy has zero to no chance in high school or college football.  Hell, the closest thing we’ve had in the playoff era (Cincinnati) got their doors blown off  in the CFP and just became another victim of the vaunted SEC.

I will fill in the blank with my honest opinion…

"High school/college football is better when TEAMS FROM MULTIPLE GEOGRAPHIC AREAS are playing at a high level and competing for the championship." 
 

College basketball has this figured out (though the Big Ten/Pac 12’s dry spell is getting concerning).  The sport doesn’t “need” Indiana.  The Big Ten leads in college basketball attendance numbers annually despite the Hoosiers’ irrelevance.

Now, high school/college football?  There is a real concerning trend that has developed.  
 

NO ONE OUTSIDE OF THE SEC/CENTRAL INDY has a realistic shot at the big prize.

We can debate why all day, perhaps another conversation for another day…but the parallels are eerily similar and cannot be ignored.

Just my two cents.

I like seeing the traditional powers knock heads against one another no matter the level or sport. Do I prefer the underdog eventually winning the big show? Absolutely. I'd rather see St. Peters take down a traditional power for the title versus taking down Houston. Most people around the state were probably rooting for Carroll or Merrillville to take out Westfield. We all love that sort of stuff. 

What I'm finding more and more is that most people around the country still equate the name Indiana with basketball royalty. Obviously this is coming from middle age and retired men. But the message is out there. Indiana is still synonymous with basketball greatness, like it or not. The same can be said for the likes of Hobart, Penn, or whoever else you want to throw in there. Penn is absolutely a Blue Blood through and through. Fading fast? No. Fading slowly? Possibly. Their resume over the last 10 years is still pretty impressive. 

2 hours ago, tango said:

I tried to tell him yesterday. Its a good topic so now I'm just ignoring it..   

I see that now. I researched a lot of schools in putting this together. There's bound to be a typo hear and there. Leave it to someone from Northeast Indiana to screw up the classification of a school in SW Indiana!

While on the road today, I tuned into ESPNU. Coincidently, they were discussing the importance of Indiana basketball becoming relevant again. They were referring to the Hoosiers as a Blue Blood and that college basketball isn't the same when they aren't in the mix. I thought they made a very good point, but I'll reconfigure their point into high school football:

"High school football is better when ___________ is playing at a high level and competing for the championship." This is how they were defining Blue Blood status. I thought this was an interesting way to look at it. 

Hobart and Penn would be good examples to fill in that blank. What about Bloomington South. You don't even need numbers and stats to come up with a list using that method. 

2 hours ago, XStar said:

Are you just listing their current classification?  Some teams had success but at a lower level than where they are here. 

Yes, I'm just going by where they are currently. Not necessarily what class they were in when they had most of their success. 

44 minutes ago, TigerFan20 said:

Evansville 

Correct

14 minutes ago, Sledge said:

Fun exercise. To me, it seems that the term "blueblood" has turned into what some people would consider a power program. 

I feel like "blueblood" should be the best of the best. Maybe 5-10 programs statewide, not per class

Off the top of my head: Carmel, Warren Central, Ben Davis, Center Grove, Cathedral, Bishop Chatard, Roncalli, Bishop Luers, Andrean, Lafayette Central Catholic

Best of the best over a specific period of time? I like your list as a starting point, all locks for sure. But there are other power programs that don't have the luxury of 3000+ students or unlimited boundaries. Pound for pound should be taken into consideration. How would Pioneer or Adams Central do if they had 3000 students? They'd give the MIC powers a run for their money. And you can't discount what Penn, Snider, Hobart, and Dwenger have achieved over four decades. 

4 minutes ago, temptation said:

New Pal agrees.

New Pal's run of sectional titles in '87, '89, & '90 put them over the hump. Most of their success came after 2004. 

48 minutes ago, Goose Liver said:

Hobart 12 trips downstate,,,,runner up 8 times.  (70's, 80's, 90's ....)

A sectional championship in 2022 checks all the boxes. Still a sickening thought not to include them NOW. 

52 minutes ago, WCGrad92 said:

If criteria is the line after the Maintenance line , then Monrovia would be considered.  SF Runner Up in 2009, SS Runner Up in 2014, State Champ in 2015, SS Runner Up in 2016.  that 1 State Title, 2 Semi State Titles, 4 Regional Titles and 4 Sectional Titles within 15 years.

I think Monrovia makes a good case for "successful programs in recent memory." Their success started thirteen seasons ago. Definitely a Blue Blood if they keep it up for seven more years. 

1 hour ago, temptation said:

I'll only speak to what I think I know well (I know maybe a shock for many of you), and use judgment rather than data.

In my opinion, the only 6A blue bloods are the four MIC schools and Penn, but the Kingsmen are fading fast.  They are trending in the wrong direction and a couple more poor years and they are bounced off my list.

I'm just not sure you can use measurables like sectional and regional titles as a barometer due to the HUGE imbalance of strength throughout the state.  A sectional/regional title for Penn does not carry the same weight as one for the four teams mentioned above.  I'd say the same for Carmel actually, until recently.

I think Penn has the resources to right the ship. They're not on the hot seat quite yet in my opinion. One sectional title in the last four years isn't a good look, but is that enough to erase decades of dominance and five state titles? If you go back a decade, they have two semi-state titles, five regional titles, and six sectional titles. They were one point removed from from a third state title appearance. And they were very competitive against Center Grove in the 2015 state title game. I think the better (not by much) team won, but a bounce here or there could have changed that outcome. 

I took into consideration the strength of schedules in Indy when coming up with my list. I was pleasantly pleased to find that the traditional MIC powers were not affected by any of the criteria. Is there another MIC team that you think could be a Blue Blood had they played in a northern conference? Maybe Avon?

11 minutes ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

So 20th century high school football isn't relevant?

I would say historical success wins out over recent success to be considered a Blue Blood. Find a different name for "recently successful." 

Blue Blood: Success is in the blood. A Blue Blood has maintained success over a period of decades. I think a team should have some level of dominance over a twenty year span at some point in the program's history. 

Adams Central (22 sectionals) and Sheridan (19 sectionals) both eliminated. No way. 

Updated list based on the ten year rule:

1A: No teams 

2A: Andrean, Memorial, Luers, LCC, Linton-Stockton, Pioneer

3A: Southridge, West Lafayette, Western Boone.

4A: Chatard, Roncalli

5A: Columbus East, Dwenger, Snider, Cathedral, New Pal, Valpo

6A: Ben Davis, Carmel, Center Grove, Warren Central, and Westfield

This eliminates 12 teams including Penn. No thanks. I have a hard time calling Westfield a Blue Blood, but not Penn and Hobart.

Penn: 25 sectional titles, 18 regionals, 12 semi-state, 5 state titles

Hobart: 22 sectional titles, 17 regionals, 10 semi-state, 4 state titles

Westfield: 11 sectional titles, 6 regionals, 5 semi-state, 1 state title

The above case in point proves that historical success should bear some weight. My original criteria needs some tweaking. I would consider Hobart a Blue Blood even though they aren't on the list. Westfield doesn't come to mind, but they made the cut. That doesn't make any sense. I wouldn't necessarily eliminate Westfield, but I might say that if you have three state titles to your credit, you automatically qualify as a Blue Blood regardless of your recent success. 

2 hours ago, temptation said:

My rule of thumb is if the current players who are a part of your program (or if you are recruiting them at the college level) were not born or were too young to remember when you were elite, it’s expired.

Indiana/Georgetown basketball come to mind.

Nebraska/Tennessee football do also.

In my opinion a Blue Blood is a program that has maintained success decade after decade. Otherwise you're  a Johnny Come Lately. You have to come up with a new name for programs who've succeeded just in the last ten years. Blue Bloods are defined by their titles. Titles that were achieved 30 years ago count. But a true Blue Blood continues to be successful. One could argue that a title fifteen years ago shouldn't be added into the "maintenance" part of keeping your status. Although I'm an advocate for fifteen, I could be talked into ten. 

Last ten years: One state title. Two regional titles. Three sectional titles. This won't add any teams to the list, but it will eliminate some. 

57 minutes ago, temptation said:

Great off-season topic.  Following.

FWIW:  I don’t think blue blood status is eternal.  Your criteria is solid but I think any such status expires after a certain amount of time without success.  

(We can debate the specifics of that time period all day.)

Going back twenty years in college basketball is extreme. I thought I'd go fifteen. Are you thinking ten? I do think history has a place. I mean if someone wanted to argue that their 4 titles outweigh someone else's 9 sectional championships in the last 10 year, then I think they could make a case. 

Maybe an exception given to Hobart, Jimtown, Tri-West, and Franklin Central? Four state titles each for those programs. 

Gibson Southern's four sectional titles fell well short of the required ten. They check all the boxes for recent success, but no where on the radar historically. 

37 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Thanks for starting an interesting topic.  Beats seeding, reclassification, and P/P vs Public debates. 

I would say class is irrelevant somewhat.  IMO the 1A "Blue bloods" - Pioneer, Linton, and LCC are currently in 2A, WeBo/Southridge and Ev Memorial/Chatard are all higher than when they started their runs, same with Columbus East and New Pal (I think) will be returning back to 4A after many years playing up. 

33/34 schools would be a little more than the top 10% where I would draw the line.  Not sure who I would take off though.  Probably Zionsville and Valpo, just because its seems that 4A-5A have been watered down a bit with SF over the last decade.  But that is splitting hairs. 

It got me thinking after reading an article about college basketball Blue Bloods. Thought it would be fun. That list could change in several directions depending on the criteria used. I weighed back and forth as to whether one state championship was enough. Having at least 10 sectional titles and and 5 regional titles were the stats I started with. 

4 minutes ago, tango said:

Ev. Memorial has never played in 2A. We were in 3A from 1985 through 2018. In 2019 we became the only 3A to win state in 4A after being bumped because of the SF.  And we've always bled blue blood. . . 

IU hasn't been a blue blood since Calbert Cheaney graduated. 

Evansville Memorial is currently in 2A. Regardless of class, they are a Blue Blood.

Some still consider IU a Blue Blood since they have 5 national championships. 

17 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Andrean qualifies if you count being in two different classes. 10 sectionals, 5 regionals, 3 semi-states, and 2 state championships in the past 15 years.

Typo: Andrean was in all along. Somehow missed them when plugging the name in. Good catch.