BTF

13 minutes ago, temptation said:

ND had an amazing night game atmosphere and ducked Trevor Lawrence.

Clemson's backup set a record that night and still couldn't beat Notre Dame. The Irish were winning that game no matter who was under center. I pegged that one at the beginning of the year. Night game in South Bend? That had signature win written all over it. If Notre Dame ducked anyone that year, it was Wisconsin. I predicted Notre Dame to lose in Lambeau Field. Cancelled due to covid. 

10 minutes ago, temptation said:

You said yourself that last year’s Westfield squad was on another level.

Other then 2-3 games on their schedule, the Shamrocks simply showed up, took care of the football, played their game and rolled.

I hate to break it to you but they didn’t have to take Homestead seriously.  

Let’s also not forget that I am talking about fanbases and folks in the stands. Coach speak and that transitioning to how the players perform is a completely separate argument.

No coach in their right mind is going to publicly tell his players the same things he says off the record.

The results speak for themselves.  I actually predicted Homestead would hang in that game if you remember.  

I’m done falling for it until I see it actually happen.

Lol, they didn't play Homestead. It was Carroll. I'll just take your post with a grain of salt. I've been bantering with you for far to long to know that you're too smart to believe that Westfield beat Carroll by multiple scores without taking them seriously. And they did hang in the game. It was a one score game late in the third quarter. 

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

They are cute 6A programs that no player or fan (excluding coaches) within a 30 mile radius of Monument Circle takes seriously or can even find on a map.

Westfield would have lost by multiple scores to Carroll last year if they didn't take them "seriously." That's why Indy has had so much success against Fort Wayne............they just happen to take Fort Wayne programs seriously when they play.

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Agree, but the title of this thread is “rising programs.”  You can’t be considered as rising and be labeled as such unless you eventually have a breakthrough.

They are cute 6A programs that no player or fan (excluding coaches) within a 30 mile radius of Monument Circle takes seriously or can even find on a map.

Lol, cute? I don't think you have to beat an Indy team to be considered "rising." And honestly? I don't know if Carroll is rising or not. Remember, i said this prediction is "pretty bold."

1 minute ago, temptation said:

I even gave credit to O$U, lol.

And yes, Michigan and ND are mirror images of one another.  They are very much mentioned in the same breath.

One just happens to play in the second toughest division in football and the other is an independent that has inflated TD record recently because it’s “rivals” are all in the toilet.

Unfortunately, both have also crapped the bed in games where they could price they are tier 1.

The Irish’s day of reckoning is coming.  

The night game at the Horseshoe…hope Coach Freeman is comfortable with some on the job training.

I'll be the first to acknowledge that Notre Dame has their hands full in Week 1. But we also have to acknowledge that Freeman is recruiting at an Alabama/Georgia level. 

I like the Wolverines, but their body of work doesn't equate to Notre Dames over the past five years. You can cite scheduling all you want, but anyone reading this knows that the Irish have had the better program in recent years. 

2 minutes ago, temptation said:

So a banner year is top one-third?

Not much to boast about in a class with 32 teams.  Not everyone can be elite.  

Indy football is in unchartered territory right now. Never have there been this many programs that are this good. That's a compliment to Indy area football and a compliment to Homestead and Carroll for sticking them in the middle of the pack in the MIC and HHC.

1 minute ago, temptation said:

This also applies to the next level.  Outside of Ohio State or Clemson, no one else nationally can be taken seriously until they beat the brass from the SEC.

The Buckeyes did it a few years back but are now on the clock.  Clemson’s next 3-4 years will reveal their standing.

Notre Dame and Michigan are “Midwest good.”

No one else is even in the waiting room.

Lol, you must be in a combative mood today to lump Notre Dame and Michigan in the same sentence. One year of being good doesn't put the Wolverines in Notre Dames category. 

2 minutes ago, temptation said:

IMO, you aren’t legit until you DO break through and beat a team from Indy.

Both Carroll and Homestead are mid-pack HCC/MIC (8 team MIC) teams on their BEST days.

You have to make noise on a state wide level to be taken seriously in this discussion.

Until then, they are “Fort Wayne good.”  Nothing more.

I'm sure they'll both accept that compliment. 

13 minutes ago, temptation said:

Need to see it annually…or at least semi-annually.

You can’t cite credit for success prior to anyone on the current roster being born and expect to be taken seriously.

Related note:  Penn is on the clock.

That renders both Homestead and Carroll as legit. As legit as you can get without beating a team from Indy. Let's give credit where credit is due. You can say what you want about the the Homestead team, minus Hardwick, that fell asleep on the bus ride down to Noblesville in 2020. But Carroll had a pretty darn good team last year. Unfortunately for them, Westfield fielded their best team ever..........by far. I think the Chargers would have done pretty well last year against anyone not named Westfield, Center Grove, or Cathedral. 

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Ah, Carroll and Homestrad.

Still waiting.

(Maybe I’m just bitter because I was also sold a bill of goods that US men’s soccer  “was on the cusp of becoming a world power” all the way back in the early 90’s.)

Homestead: How far back are we going? Cavicini's '97 & '98 teams were Top 4 in the state. Drew Wood's 2000 team was somewhere in that Top 4. Although consistently good in the Zolman era, they seem to top out as good, but never great. Unfortunately we'll never know how good they could have been in 2020 after Braeden Hardwick went down with a torn ACL in Week 7. 

Carroll: Yeah, Dinan is in his 13th season, so it's hard to make excuses. When he started, their program was just an afterthought, so we knew it wouldn't happen overnight. I still think they have an upside with an increasing enrollment and arguably the best facilities in the state. Not to mention, he's a pretty good coach. 

Put up or shut up...........bla, bla, bla. We get it Temp. 

I wanna say Carroll (Fort Wayne). This opinion is pretty bold considering the Chargers haven't even made it past regionals in 12 years under Dinan. His record is 90-45, but many of those victories came against schools with much smaller enrollments. That being said, he's had a few teams that were pretty good. Last year was his best, but he unfortunately ran into Westfield's best. He tutored under Russ Isaacs for ten years, so he knows what it takes to build and maintain a program. And Carroll just continues to grow in student population. I wouldn't be surprised if they surpass the 3000 mark in five years. They have outstanding facilities. I think the Chargers could be a player at the 6A level for years to come. But they need to prove that last year's defense wasn't just a one year fluke. 

22 hours ago, HHF said:

Fort Wayne Northrup Head Coach Jason Doerffler will take over at Leo High School

Doerffler posted a 23-58 record with the Bruins over 8 seasons. Northrup is bumping up from 5A to 6A for the 2022 season.

Coach Doerffler takes over from the highly successful Jared Sauder, who was 139-42 over 15 seasons with the 4A Lions.

His uncle, Dale Doerffler, was one of the better coaches to come out of Fort Wayne. His North Side teams were Snider's nemesis in the 80's and sometimes state ranked. 

Father Dean probably goes down and Northrop's second most successful coach. He had some good teams in the late 80's and early 90's. He also had a very successful stint at Concordia. The Cadets were a doormat before he took over. 

Conclusion: Coaching is in the blood in that family. I kept waiting for Northrop to have a breakout season, especially after he added his father to the staff. A breakout season never materialized. I think for a program to be successful, the entire school has to be "bought in." Maybe that just wasn't the case at Northrop. Good luck Jason at Leo. 

46 minutes ago, temptation said:

I am not extremely familiar with Fort Wayne nor Allen County but is this basically Northeast Indiana’s flight to the suburbs that we are seeing in Marion County?

Yes. Homestead, Carroll, and Leo. Too much Amish owned property between Fort Wayne and Woodlan on the east side for them to to be next. No development on the south side for Heritage to be next. Look for the three forementioned programs to continue to grow. Homestead and Carroll will both be pushing 3000 students in the near future and I look for Leo to bump up to 5a at some point. 6A could be on the horizon for the Lions. 

13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Why is Snider some much more talented than Northop? 

I think Snider is just more committed to their football program than Northrop is. The Bruins have talent. They've always been solid at track and baseball. 

If Cathedral is more committed to their football program than Roncalli is, just say so. I'm not from Indy, I'm just wondering why their is the talent gap that you speak of. 

6 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

And I'm still guessing Cathedral would have beaten Roncalli by 3+ scores any of the last two years and by more this coming year had they played. Roncalli isn't on the same stratosphere in overall talent as Cathedral. 

Why is that? Why does a kid that goes to Cathedral have more talent then a kid that goes to Roncalli? Do the Irish do a better job of going after top rated talent? Or is Cathedral's strength and conditioning program just that good? If Cathedral's talent level is astronomically higher than their competitors, I'm just curious as to why. I can assure you that a Catholic kid from Dwenger is no different than one at Cathedral, yet Cathedral would have gone 10-0 against Dwenger over the last ten years. Why the big difference? 

6 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Who told you Cathedral doesn’t have feeder schools? They aren’t a diocesan school per se, but make no mistake, they draw the same kids from the same schools year after year. Brebeuf is in the same boat as they aren’t a diocesan school either.
 

This debate ended 10 years ago when Indianapolis and the surrounding counties went to open enrollment. 

If I'm living somewhere in the Indy Metro with a kid who is a gifted football player and wanting him to go to a private school, then I'm sending him to Cathedral more than likely. Sure, I'll take a look at Roncalli and Chatard. But it all starts with the Irish. Kudos to that program for building it to where it is today. 

If Cathedral is producing the kind of athletes from only their student body and no kids enrolling there for football reasons, then they need to hold a strength and conditioning clinic for every Power Five football program in America.

Again, not picking on them, just love seeing them rumble with the big boys in 6A. Because after all, they are a "big boy" when it comes to football. Easily a Top 5 program statewide, not sure why they would even want to play down a class. That's not challenging your program in my opinion.  

58 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

They have less kids than Roncalli and about 150 more than Brebeuf yet I’ve never once seen you make the argument that Roncalli or Brebeuf need to be in 6A despite being located in the same county with the ability to draw from the same “2 million people”.

Someone on here told me that Cathedral doesn't have feeder schools. If that's false, and Cathedral  draws only from their pipeline like Dwenger does, then I stand corrected. It was my understanding that Cathedral draws from all over. 

37 minutes ago, temptation said:

Just out of curiosity, why are you lumping Merrillville in with Cathedral?

The Pirates have been in their rightful place all along, no?

Depends on how you look at it. In 6A they are the smallest school, in 5A they are the largest. But their competition at the 5A level is more similar in enrollment than their 6A counterparts. 

With regard to Cathedral. I never look at their enrollment. I look at their district, which basically encompasses a metro of 2 million. I'm not picking on them, in fact I have the upmost respect for Catholic football teams, but lets be real here. They aren't some tiny little school that beats up on their three times larger counterparts. 

5 minutes ago, temptation said:

Some programs don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.  @HHF’s point about them always running into a juggernaut hits the mark but there are no excuses going forward now.

Agree. Merrillville and Cathedral are both in their rightful classes now. It should make the tournament more exciting. The Pirates are playing schools their own size now and so is Cathedral. 

5 minutes ago, temptation said:

I’ll take a wait and see approach.

Surprise surprise.

22 minutes ago, HHF said:

Merrillville damaged their statewide reputation that night against Chatard.  They had bigger, faster and stronger athletes at every position and just got their asses kicked by a team that was dialed in and focused on the moment.

MHS should have one the game by 3 scores if you base it on talent alone.

Pirates dont have a signature win outside of the DAC in a long time.  

Still waiting.

They are now where they want to be.  

 

Fair

1 hour ago, HHF said:

Merrillville has a recent ugly loss at 3A Chatard, which dampens confidence in their ability to win in the south.  

Forgot about that one. That was ugly. Not necessarily the score, but the fact that they lost to a 3A program. That being said, wasn't Chatard widely considered one of the best 3 or 4 teams in Indy that year? Or was it the year before?

3 hours ago, temptation said:

Though on a smaller scale, I’ve been awaiting Plainfield’s breakthrough to the next level in a similar fashion to what I mentioned about Homestead.

You are probably right as Cathedral being out of the way should give us an accurate representation of where the Quakers stand in the 5A landscape.

They are having an historic track season currently and if they can buy in to the Center Grove model there is zero reason they can’t take the next step.

So it sounds like it's the Plainfield/Decatur Central show down south? Will be interesting to see how they do against Merrillville. The Pirates are a good football team, make no mistake. They had the misfortune of running into the best two football programs Westfield has historically put on the field in '20 & '21. In 2019, they were upended by the eventual state champs. There might be have been 4 or 5 teams in the Indy area that they just would not have beaten, but I think they would have stacked up nicely against the rest of Indy. 

Now lets just hope he's as good of a head coach as he is a recruiter and was as a coordinator. 

All opinions welcome, that's what makes for good forum. If there was no debate, there would be much less interest. 

Thanks DT for the rankings. It goes into depth we don't see in most other polls. If any poll is a joke, it's the AP and the Coaches Poll. 

Gibson Southern's reputation speaks for itself, those especially from Southern Indiana know that. If anything, appreciate a low ranking or no ranking at all. It'll probably just give GS the motivation they need, that they may not have had otherwise.