Footballking16

2 hours ago, temptation said:

Caesars has released some early season betting lines…

OSU -13.5 vs ND

OSU will cover, but if this was anybody other than an OSU player coaching ND this would be a 35-7 game…..at half. And it still might be. Might also be the final score too.

31 minutes ago, BTF said:

I have them down for four decades. The 70's, 80's, 2000's, and 2010's. They disappeared in the 90's.

Only the following schools have been successful every decade from the 80's until now: Ben Davis, Dwenger, Luers, Cathedral, Chatard, Roncalli,Snider, Zionsville and Penn. Those nine pass the test for Blue Bloods. Carmel and Warren Central get a pass for the vast amount of success that they achieved every decade but the 90's. Twenty nine other programs can make a case by tweaking the criteria here and there. 

It's been a fun discussion. 

 

Carmel didn’t disappear in the 90’s, they just didn’t win any state titles. They won multiple sectional and regional championships and subsequently had multiple semi-state appearances. That decade of “disappearing” is a decade of excellence for all but 5 or 6 programs in the state. Just goes to show you how good Carmel has been for so long.

But yes, good topic and discussion nonetheless.

11 minutes ago, BTF said:

You said "sustained success." They never even made it to the final game in the 90's. That's not sustained success. 

Winning 9 state titles and 7 runner-ups spanning 5 different decades is the definition of sustained success. They have the most sectional titles of any program in the history of the sport. They are the walking definition of a blue-blood. 

9 minutes ago, BTF said:

But not Warren Central and Carmel.

That being said, I think you could make a case for both programs as their success in every other decade was enough to make up for their lack of success in the 90's.

You could also make an exception for Snider. They were successful every decade. Five state titles are hard to come by when you have to play several programs twice your enrollment to hoist up the trophy. 

Both Warren and Carmel have had sustained success the last 50 years despite not winning a title in the 90's. There isn't a more successful big class school in the history of the sport than Carmel. They are most certainly an Indiana blue-blood and arguably at the top of the list in my opinion.

16 minutes ago, BTF said:

Carmel is out............no success in the 90's. 

Carmel is almost certainly not out. I said in order to be considered you needed to have minimum 5 state titles in at least 3 different decades. They certainly fit that bill. 

5 minutes ago, BTF said:

 And then there were seven. Snider and Zionsville eliminated. 

Ben Davis, Dwenger, Luers, Cathedral, Chatard, Roncalli, and Penn.

 

You forgot Carmel who has titles in the 70's, 80, 2000's, and 2010's. But yes that's a pretty solid list. My personal Mt Rushmore for Indiana High School Football is:

Carmel

Cathedral

Luers

Chatard

7 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

So...Clemson isn't a blue blood, but Duke became a blue blood the moment Coach K took over the program?......even though it took 11 seasons to win his first title.  He was 85-65 over his first 5 years.  I am not debating they aren't a blue blood program....I am simply saying it took a few years of sustained excellence to become a blue blood.....but not your 40-50 year timeframe criteria.

No. Clemson isn't a blue-blood and nowhere ever did I say Duke instantly became a blue-blood once Coach K took the reigns. K was at Duke 42 years and Duke achieved blue-blood status sometime during his tenure, my opinion in 2015 after winning his 5th title. This would have been 35 years into his tenure. I believe that is enough to qualify them in that regard. 

10 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

BTW, I never said a decade....I just don't believe it has to be 40-50 years.  And if we use your criteria, there are example of teams considered blue bloods that were dominant in the earlier period of those 50 years, that are certainly not dominant today.  The authors that believe there are only 8 blue bloods list Nebraska, USC and Michigan in that list.  Based on their performance over the past 10-20 years, I struggle with calling those blue blood programs any longer.

My opinion is that it takes close to 40-50 years to gain blue-blood status but again that's arbitrary. And it certainly should take longer than a decade or two to lose blue-blood status. Clemson right now is sitting at about a decade of sustained success. That qualifies them in the elite category (current) but still nowhere close to that blue-blood level. In my opinion Clemson needs at least another 20-25 years of similar success before being mentioned with the true blue-bloods of college football. 

I consider Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma, USC, and Notre Dame to be the blue-bloods of college football. All five of those programs have had a sustained level of success for 50+ years. Michigan, Nebraska, and Texas are right behind them.

1 minute ago, BTF said:

That being said. What is the criteria? Are we going back to the 80's or just the 90's? 

One state championship

One state championship appearance per decade (80's forward)

Two regional championships per decade (90's forward)

Four sectional titles per decade (90's forward)

 

Again tough to do with Indiana High School football considering the amount of closures and consolidations over the years as well as enrollment boosts and other factors. I think there's several schools who fit the blue-blood criteria for a sustained period of success going back 40-50 years. I think to be considered a true blue-blood you need a minimum of 5 state titles and titles must be won in at least 3 different decades. That eliminates a good chunk of programs who have been on the upswing the last 15-20 years. 

22 minutes ago, BTF said:

Good point.

And that's why it's really hard to do in Indiana High School football unless you are simply establishing them by class or big school/small school. Because unlike college football or basketball there are multiple titles a year to be won. 

2 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Just curious as to why it takes a half century of sustained top performance to be considered a blue blood.  I understand an extended period...but 40-50 years??

Because being considered a blue-blood is an ultra-exclusive title. If we recognized every program who has shown a decade worth of sustained success, you'd have 30 something blue-blood programs. It would diminish the title.

3 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Coach K was there 40 years....but his Duke program was nowhere near a blue blood program during his first decade.  So even if a blue blood for 3 decades, he doesn't meet your 40-50 years criteria.

Duke is T-4th all-time in national titles. Duke went to 4 Final Fours and had two runner-ups in Coach K's first 10 years. Duke has achieved blue-blood status since K took over in 1980. There isn't a question about it. 

6 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

BTW, regarding Clemson, and many other programs....I guess it boils down to who is defining blood bloods.  I look at the articles that define 8 schools as blue bloods and one could argue that based on the last 2 decades, they should be falling off. Schools such as Nebraska, USC, Texas, etc.  But using the criteria below, Clemson is considered a blue blood.

I've never seen Clemson considered a blue-blood in Football. By anybody. I've never seen them listed as a top 10 football program of all-time. By anybody. Because they aren't. Good program, but nowhere near blue-blood status and arguably not even top 15 all-time. The last decade, as good as it has been for them, doesn't change that narrative. Currently an elite program, but they need another 10-15 years of sustained success to even be considered, in my opinion. 

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

I agree with you.  Some people need to get the almanacs out.... Maybe me, and foggy memory, but Duke has been good for 4 decades and Clemson has had some bad years, but has been good in the last 4 decades.

Clemson has been one of the best 2-3 programs the last decade and won a title in 81. They were .500 throughout the 60s and 70's. They had some 10 win seasons in the 80's and 90's but also a ton of 6-5, 7-4 type seasons as well, all the way up until hiring Dabo. Top of my head, programs who are historically better than Clemson throughout the duration of college football:

Alabama

Ohio State

USC

Oklahoma

Notre Dame

Those are the 5 I considered Blue Blood

Texas

Nebraska

Michigan

Georgia

Penn State

Florida

Tennessee 

FSU

Miami

Auburn

There's another 10 who are all historically better than Clemson. 

3 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Strongly disagree.

You could possibly lay claim to top 20 simply on recency bias, but there's no way there are top 15 historically and they aren't anywhere close to blue-blood status.

17 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Based on that definition, Duke would not be a blue blood in college basketball.........nor would Clemson be considered in college football.  

2 decades is not enough???

Clemson is nowhere close to being considered a blue-blood in college football. Not even close. They are an elite program right now but not even in top 15 or top 20 all time. 

Duke has been good at basketball a lot longer than 2 decades. K was there nearly 40 years. 

3 hours ago, BTF said:

According to Gatorguy's spreadsheet, Reitz comes in at 36. I had Reitz in my original 33 (no particular order). I think there are about 40 schools out there who would stake their claim to being a Blue Blood. That tells me that recent success needs to be taken into account to get that number down to 20. 

How much of that spreadsheet accounts for pre-class football? I think you need at least 4-5 decades of some kind of sustained success if you’re trying to define a blue-blood program. I realize that may not be possible in Indiana high school football given all the consolidations and closures of schools over the years, but I don’t think recent success is necessarily a strong indicator of blue-blood status. There’s no question that a school like Center Grove is the premier football school in the state of Indiana right now. But historically, not sure I’d even consider them to be a top 10 big class program as it stands now. 20-30 years from now that may be a different story.

1 minute ago, BTF said:

"Lol" was my reaction as well. It just kind of left me speechless. 

Giving credit where credit is due, his list included some really good programs. I just don't know how you can include the likes of Bloomington South and Center Grove, but not Luers, Dwenger, and Snider. At the end of the day, I think there are approximately 25 programs that could make a case for Blue Blood status. The best post I've seen so far is the spreadsheet that was derived from a point system. 

1. Chatard

2. Cathedral

3. Luers

4. Carmel

5. Ben Davis

6. Roncalli

7. Dwenger

8. Penn

9. Sheridan

10. Hobart

11. Warren Central

12. Ritter

13. Snider

14. LLC

15. Center Grove

16. Jimtown

17. Andrean

18. Mater Dei

19. Tri-West Hendricks

20. Northwood

21. Evansville Memorial

22. Adams Central

23. West Layfayette

24. Franklin Central

25. Columbus East

That's a pretty good Top 25 if you ask me. Some will ask where Bloomington South, Pioneer, and New Pal reside. All three would be included in a Top 30. Zionsville comes in at 32, Lowell at 35, and Heritage Hills at 36. I guess we can all look at the ranking and come up with our own conclusion as to who is a Blue Blood and who isn't. 

Where do you put a school like Evansville Reitz when it comes to blue-blood status? Evansville Reitz been playing football forever and has a ton of mythical (and legit) state titles pre-IHSAA era and at one point (not sure still this case) had the 2nd most wins in Indiana History. Won a few state titles this century as well. 

4 minutes ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

I think "blue blood" is more about sustained excellence than number of championships.

The top of the list is Cathedral who has won championships in the 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, and 20s

I may have missed someone who tied that mark

That's how I interpret it as well and why some people still consider Indiana basketball a blue blood. Championships in 4 different decades spanning multiple coaches. They haven't been great the last 25 years, but I think it takes a hell lot longer than 25 years to establish blue-blood status and should take every bit as long, if not longer, to lose it. 

28 minutes ago, temptation said:

No Warren huh?  Wow.  They need a NINTH state championship to make the cut, lol?

Luers has to be on that list as well. Too tough to do a a true blue blood list in high school football. Too many classes therefore too many titles to go around. Blue-blood status is an extremely exclusive title. 

1 hour ago, Staxawax said:

Yeah, a defending state champion wanting to move up in class to avoid potential opponents. Right.

Don't think it's crazy. North Davies moving to 2A likely puts them in a sectional with Linton-Stockton and then a regional with Providence (defending 2A champ). Both Linton and Providence finished with better Sagarin ratings as 2A schools and than any team they'd face in a potential 3A sectional or regional. 

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

I also believe that Mishawaka petitioned to remain in higher classes after getting bumped even though their enrollment allowed them to be in a lower class.  If I recall correctly, Mishawaka petitioned a couple of times to move up.

Believe Mishawaka did right when the IHSAA implemented its 6th class. It was before teams like Cathedral, Dwenger, etc were regularly cycled up to 5A and were still in 4A. Mishawaka avoided northern powers like Lowell and Dwenger. 4A was stronger at the time than the new look 5A featuring 32 teams, especially in the North half of the bracket. 

12 minutes ago, Old Man High Pants said:

4A was a meat grinder prior to the success factor. 

Best class in terms of parity if you ask me. 

Cathedral, Roncalli, Dwenger, Columbus East, Reitz, Lowell all very strong.

16 hours ago, Bobref said:

Accuracy is one thing. Completeness is another. I strive to be both.

You’re just miffed that Michigan didn’t do it first. Oh wait, isn’t Appalachian State an HBCU …?

Be careful Bob.

Beating Ohio State for the first time in a decade has brought out the worst in some Michigan fans. 

And they got their Michigan Man back. 

8 hours ago, Lysander said:

If I were a conspiracy guy I would say that its all because the IHSAA just couldn’t wait to bump Cathedral to 6A and had to validate that decision somehow…..but then I’m no conspiracy guy…..

Be interesting to see the new 6A South sectional alignment. Cathedral in a sectional with LC, LN, and North Central likely ensures the Irish will remain in 6A on an almost permanent basis (nothing wrong with that either). 

4A would have been a good barometer for Chatard. New Pal (I believe) will be loaded the next year or two and Kokomo bumping down strengthens 4A which in my opinion has been one of the weaker classes for sometime. 

1 minute ago, BTF said:

Maybe it depends on where you reside in the state. Up here in Fort Wayne, we've considered Carmel an Indy team all the way back in the 80's. 

Lived right on the Hamilton/Marion Co border. Always considered Carmel a suburban school, HSE and Noblesville were all big 5A enrollment schools within Hamilton Co. Hell I considered both Lawrence Schools and North Central suburban schools back then, though it has definitely changed in the last 10 years. 

Carmel has almost always gone north in the state tournament in every sport and is almost always in sectionals with their Hamilton Co brethren. 

17 minutes ago, temptation said:

Glad to see you back.

Carmel’s mega school status has gotten them lumped in with Indy schools since the formation of the MIC in the mid 90s.

HSE (eventually Fishers too), CG and Avon were about a decade later and Westfield and Brownsburg roughly a decade after that.

Currently, Zionsville and Whiteland are next in line.

 

Hmmm.

I was in high school from 04-08 and definitely lumped Carmel in with the other Hamilton County schools before I associated them with the Ben Davis' and Warren Central's of the world, regardless of conference affiliation. HSE had well over 3k kids when they split after the 06-07 school year and would have been considered a mega-school enrollment back then. 

23 hours ago, temptation said:

Accurate.  Indy schools didn’t really take suburban schools seriously until the 2010’s…they were rarely given a reason to.

Carmel?