Footballking16

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

As an IU fan, I figured you would have figured out the mirage that 2020 was by now.  Multiple opt outs on both sides of the ball, particularly the defensive side of the ball which accounts for the ONLY year under Harbaugh that they failed to finish in the top 20 in defensive efficiency.  I know you don't like being told Santa Claus isn't real but come on.

Harbaugh's record speaks for itself at both levels and while you may be right that UM has underachieved in the minds of some, they are right back at the typical 9-10 win minimum they were at before Rich Rod and Hoke.  That is part of the reason that you will NEVER hear me bitch about a 10 win regular season.  The two coaches prior to Harbaugh made me grateful for those types of campaigns.

Still waiting on your list of 10 programs that are better.  Stop dodging the question.

Alabama

Clemson

Ohio State

Georgia

Oklahoma

Notre Dame

LSU

Penn State

Wisconsin

Guess I'm back and forth between Florida and Michigan. Michigan better H2H record vs Florida but Florida far better postseason record. And again spare me with your "meaningless bowl games". If beating rivals and winning titles is the only thing that matters then Michigan doesn't sniff this list. 

20 minutes ago, temptation said:

Michigan entered both the 2016 and 2018 (as well as the 2021) Ohio State game with control of its own destiny in terms of winning the Big Ten East title.  I've already said that you can throw out 2020 and anyone who disagrees (see #LEO) is incredibly dense.  So your first statement is inaccurate immediately.

I saw the spouting back and forth that you and others had in another OT thread about the Big Ten realigning divisions and you already know that the Big Ten East is the 2nd toughest division in all of college football.  It sucks to have not won it until 2021, but often a top 3-4 finish in the Big Ten East still yields a top 15 finish nationally.  Let's not pretend its the MAC or Conference USA here chief.  I saw your suggestions in the aforementioned thread and decided not to engage.  
 

The current gap between the "haves and the have nots" in college football is greater than its ever been.  By your definition, it sounds like every program not named Alabama, Georgia, Clemson or Ohio State is "irrelevant."  Those four programs are playing at another level completely from the rest of the country and if you don't think Michigan (along with 6-8 other college programs) are in that second tier, you are drunk.

You already knew all of this already but you are just doubling down on your stupidity instead of admitting you are wrong.

I want you to name 10 programs that are more nationally relevant that Michigan and upload a picture of yourself doing it with a straight face.

Spoiler alert:  You can't.

You can continue to tell yourself 2020 doesn't count. Not only does 2020 count, it happened and it was real. It was so real that Harbaugh was forced to take a 50% pay cut just to stay employed.

No doubt the B10 East is a tough division, never argued otherwise. And Michigan is only the 3rd or 4th best team in that division. So what?

Why do you care what I think about Michigan? It's a has been program that finally had a good year and yet is still blowing up in their face. Head coach wanting out of Dodge, top assistant taking a demotion to go to Miami, replacing a defensive coordinator with a nobody, etc. It's just funny to me. Counting down the days watching a 9-3 Michigan team lose once again in the Gator Bowl while its fans incessantly yell, "WE'RE A TOP 10 PROGRAM"!!!!

Rinse, lather, repeat. 

10 minutes ago, DE said:

I already told you.  Read the room.

Michigan hasn't sniffed a conference title in 5/7 years Harbaugh has been the head coach. That is a trend. The rest are outliers. The only other year Michigan finished better than 3rd in their own division was 2018 in which they lost to Notre Dame, gave up 62 to Ohio State in a winner take all game, and got embarrassed in their bowl game. There isn't a true Wolverine fan alive that would call that a successful season.

Wal-Mart fans like Temptation might think so since winning 10 games is somehow the barometer of a successful season, but real Michigan fans who have at least seen Michigan as an elite program realize how far away from national relevancy they really are. 

Top 10 nationally relevant program my ass lol. Can't even compete for a a division title  70% of the time during Harbaugh's tenure. 

Thanks for the laugh fellas. 

2 minutes ago, DE said:

No room to read.  Just pointing out your inaccuracies you are spouting as "facts".

What's inaccurate? 

1 minute ago, DE said:

Outlier also.

Finishing 3rd or worst in your own division in 5 of the 7 years you've been a head coach is a trend my friend. Teams that finish 3rd or worst in their own division aren't competing for national titles. Read the room. 

Just now, DE said:

😂

I'm not even a Michigan fan and I see the insanity in that statement.

What's the insanity of it?

Michigan's finish in the B10 east since Harbaugh's arrival:

3rd

3rd

4th

T-1st

3rd

T-5th

T-1st

Acting like Michigan is some program who year in and year out is competing for B10 titles and NY6/playoff appearances is ludicrous. Would it kill you to do your own research or are you incapable? 

9 minutes ago, temptation said:

2020 was an outlier for Michigan.  They are a solid 9-11 win program year in and year out and have been forever.  Bowl games are an embarrassing and overrated metric in the modern era of football.  With opt outs for teams that miss the CFP, they are organized scrimmages/spring games.

Michigan used to be the cream of the crop in the B10. Ohio State is a full marathon ahead of the Wolverines right now. Michigan used to be a top 5 program, they're arguably only a top 3 or 4 program in the B10 right now. Penn State, Wisconsin, and Michigan State have all played in and won Rose Bowls in the last 10 years.

Say what you want about Michigan and not winning bowls that don't matter, you can't beat any of your rivals. By what metric does Michigan measure their football program then? You aren't beating Michigan St. You aren't beating Ohio State. And you sure as hell aren't winning postseason games. So your barometer of success is beating up on Indiana, Northwestern, Maryland, Rutgers of the world??? Sounds like a top ten program to me.

Keep doing what you need to do to rationalize.

1 minute ago, temptation said:

The Michigan football/Indiana basketball analogy does fit on some levels, particularly with the fanbases but I'm pretty sure 2021 solidified Michigan and Harbaugh as more than just a brand.  Unranked to the college football playoff is hard to ignore.  Even in years where Michigan has "only " managed to finish in the top 20 (considered a down year), IU hasn't been able to make a 68 team field in basketball.  That's where the analogy falls apart.

I am just enamored by your definition of "nationally relevant."

2021 is an outlier for Michigan.

Michigan has finished unranked in the AP as many times as they've finished ranked since Carr retired. Michigan isn't anywhere close to the program it used to be, # of viewers be damned. A bunch of dummies who still think Bo Schembelcher is the coach. 

You can't beat Michigan State on a regular basis these days and are only competitive with Ohio State in one out of every five years. Michigan hasn't won a meaningful bowl game in ages and it's been a decade plus since you've been to the Rose Bowl. 

Have program standards fallen that far up in Ann Arbor? Are these what the "boots on the ground" are preaching these days?

7 minutes ago, DE said:

Slap has 5 banners BrUh

And just like Michigan, Indiana basketball has been a nationally irrelevant basketball program in the last 20 years. Have no shame in admitting that. IU basketball still draws huge TV ratings, always one of the top revenue producers each year, etc...it means jack shit in the W-L column. 

Michigan needs to worry about becoming the best team in its own state before anything else. 

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

But with 130+ FBS teams, claiming that an obvious top ten program is "not nationally relevant" is a bold take...even for an IU fan.

6 of the top 10 most watched college football games this past fall involved Michigan.. 

You'd trade places with me in a heartbeat, no?

Would I love for Indiana to be an above average B10 team?

Sure. 

1 minute ago, temptation said:

You are once again replacing fact with opinion.  I'd challenge you to name 10 programs more "nationally" relevant than Michigan since Harbaugh took over in 2015.  You are cherry picking your stats.

The only opinion in my last post was about the coordinators. The rest are facts. 

4-10 against Michigan State is absolutely a fact.

4 wins against Ohio state since 2000 is absolutely a fact.

Haven't played in a Rose Bowl in over 15 year is absolutely a fact.

Haven't won a Rose Bowl in 20+ years is absolutely a fact.

Harbaugh interviewing with the Vikings is absolutely a fact.

Michigan has a losing record against Ohio State and Michigan State and a .500 record vs Penn State since Harbaugh has taken over. They've finished better than 3rd TWICE in their own division in said time frame.

Facts my friend. Michigan is no longer your daddy's Michigan. Haven't been in awhile. 

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Yet is a top 10 program nationally despite your claim of “one nationally relevant season for the first time in over a decade.”

Says the Wal-Mart Wolverine  fan. 

4-10 against "Little Brother" since Carr's retirement (2007).

4 wins against Ohio State this millennium.

Haven't sniffed a Rose Bowl in 15 years and it's been over 20 since they last won one.

Head coach couldn't get out of town fast enough after best season in 20+ years.

Lost both coordinators and replaced them with absolute nobodies.

This is exactly what I'd expect a "Michigan" fan to say.

2 hours ago, DE said:

I know.  Though, I am not the one trying to go toe to toe w/ the all time win leaders (Michigan and Temp).  😉

You and janitor boy need to just sit this out.

Ha. The all-time wins leader isn’t even the best D1 football program in their own state and haven’t been for awhile.

2 minutes ago, DE said:

🤣

Wal-Mart Wolverines.

What does that make IU......Dollar General Hoosiers?

Whatever you wanna call em, Slap.

21 hours ago, temptation said:

#LEO

Michigan has one nationally relevant season for the first time in over a decade and all the Wal-Mart Wolverines come out of the woodwork. Cute.

1 minute ago, HHF said:

The Big Ten does have geographic parity, if you use a North-South model:

North : NE/IA/MN/WI/UM/MSU/NW

South :IL/PU/IN/OSU/PSU/RUT/MD

 

I don't care what they call it going forward. Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, and Michigan State don't need to be in the same division. It's blown up in their face on multiple occasions since the they've gone the playoff route. 

7 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's a shame IU didn't make a push for Jessie Bates. He took the only Power Five offer given to him and ended up at Wake Forest. Now he is ranked as the 5th best defensive back in the NFL and playing for a Super Bowl ring. . I'm with DT on this one. More focus on the State of Indiana. 

They signed 3 of the top 10 prospects in the state this year, two of them 4 stars. The in-state 4 stars that Indiana has recently signed have all been massive busts and either can't get on the field or have transferred out to lesser programs. Reality is that IU isn't going to beat out Ohio State, Notre Dame, and Michigan for the top in-state kids. IU did everything in their power to try and lure Curry. They offered Craig and Tanona who ended up at Notre Dame. Can you blame them? 

I watched for years as Cam Cameron and Gerry DiNardo recruited in-state kids who had no business playing in the B10. Indiana has undoubtedly evolved into a football state but the talent between Indiana and neighboring stats like Ohio and Michigan is night and day. Indiana won't survive as a football program relying on in-state talent. This shouldn't come as a shock to anybody. 

2 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Yes, but outside of Missouri, they are aligned by geography, not by anything that the SEC has intentionally done.  Going to the B12 model of a title game without divisions would be more in line with taking steps to insure what you are suggesting.  In reality, there's a better parity geographically in the SEC than there is in the B10.

It'd be nice to have two B10 schools in consideration, but let's be realistic here, I think the B10 would be happy to, consistently, have one team in that top 4 where the expectation before the games start is that the B10 school WILL be in the final game.

Right but the B10 does have that issue where there isn't geographical parity. They need to fix it to ensure better playoff visibility. Penn State and Ohio State won the B10 title game back to back years in 2016 and 2017 and didn't get playoff invitations. They're stacking the deck against themselves when 3/4 best teams in the conference can't play for the title in any given year. 

1 minute ago, TRCJunkie said:

When comparing recruiting, we have got to stop referencing rivals/ESPN. 247's Composite rankings are much better, consistent, and more respected throughout the whole industry. 

I like 247 because it incorporates all of the recruiting sites to give a more aggregate ranking. 

6 minutes ago, HHF said:

The Big 10s goal has never been to get 2 teams into the playoffs.  They are happy to have one.  Hence the stacked east.

Its all documented.  Do the research.

Well there's been multiple years they haven't sent a single participant. It would be a layup if they proportionately balanced their divisions. I don't think anyone has ever accused Kevin Warren of being a forward thinker. 

2 minutes ago, foxbat said:

???  The SEC has divisions ... East and West.  The reason that they can send multiple teams to a 4-team playoff has very little to do with divisions.  It has to do with the fact that the SEC happens to produce stronger teams ACROSS divisions as opposed to them all bunched in a single division.  Of course, it also helps to send a couple teams when one of your schools has Nick Sabin coaching it and he can lose to an unranked team and still end up in the top four.  I wouldn't be surprised if Alabama skips the first half of the season and still ends up in the National Championship hunt.

I know the SEC has divisions and they're balanced much more proportionately than the way the B10 does it. You have Alabama, LSU, Auburn on one side and Georgia, Florida on the other side. Imagine if all those teams were in the same division? It be their version of the B10 East and they'd have no realistic shot of ever sending two teams to the playoff and they run the risk of beating up on each other before the SEC title game is played. 

3 minutes ago, HHF said:

Highly ranked texas and OU teams in the 90s and early 2000s were getting upset in the B12 title game fairly regularly, knocking the conference out of the playoff picture or the national title chase, depending on the format in play at that time.  The BT watched that closely and wanted to avoid that possibility when they ditched the leaders and legends for the East - west alignment.

 

Big 12 played in 6 of the 10 BCS National title games from 2000-2009. Not sure that was the problem. The NCAA ruled after the 2010 season that conferences must have at least 12 members to host a title game, Big 12 only had 10...go figure. After the 2016 season, NCAA came out and said there didn't need to be a minimum number of conference participants to hold a conference championship game so the B12 reimplemented one and did it without divisions to ensure the two best teams played for the championship game. B10 should follow or at the very least make sure Ohio St/Michigan and Penn State are in opposite divisions. 

8 minutes ago, HHF said:

The BIG actually uses reverse logic in this instance.  They purposely loaded the east to "ensure" that the conference would be repped in the playoff.  There have been many upsets, especially in the Big 12, where a big favorite has been knocked off by a lesser divisional champ.  Most BT title games have been blowouts.  There has yet to be an upset.  That is the way the league stays in the playoff mix.  

An undefeated Ohio State/Michigan vs an undefeated Penn State in the title game all but ensures at least one team in the playoff every year, possibly two if the game is close. SEC has it figured out, it's why they've been able to send multiple teams to a 4 team playoff on more than one instance. 

The B12 doesn't have divisions anymore and has only had a title game in the playoff era since 2017. 

1 minute ago, HHF said:

You must be off your meds.  You agreed with something I posted.  Call the Doctor!

Been advocating for years the imbalance of powers in the B10. If anything, the B10 screws itself in terms of playoff participation under the current setup. B10 championship game should be a defacto play in game for the playoff and in rare occurrences the possibility of getting two teams in. Current setup runs the risk of teams like Michigan/Ohio State/Penn State beating up on each other. 

Just now, HHF said:

The best thing to happen to IU football is the recent news that the BT is considering eliminating divisions.  Lets hope that comes to fruition and we can replace the OSU/UM/PSU/MSU gauntlet with regular games against NW/MN/IA/NE/IL. 

That would go along way in bringing back some kind of parity. I agree.