Footballking16

24 minutes ago, BTF said:

If a school of 4000 and a school of 2000 have the same work ethic from the coaches to the players, the bigger school wins 9 out of 10. Whatever Eric Moore is doing at Center Grove, he could do it better at Carmel.

Non-sequitur.

The teams that have 2,000 students aren't losing to the mega-school enrollments with 4,000 students. The teams with 2000-2500 students (namely from the north) are losing to teams with 2500-2800 students in the sectional rounds. It's a non-issue. Columbus North can't complain about playing in a tournament with schools like Ben Davis or Warren because they aren't good enough to make it that far. They can't beat schools like Center Grove and Franklin Central in their own sectional with like-size enrollments. 

The whole premise of the argument is flawed. 6A doesn't have a mega-enrollment problem. Half of the mega-enrollment schools are average to just downright bad. 6A has a Carmel, Center Grove, Warren, and Ben Davis problem. Nothing more, nothing less. Moving the 8 smallest schools to 5A doesn't solve that problem. 

27 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

Fair enough - but yes - that is a different discussion altogether.

So your view is that instead of moving class 6A to 24 teams and seeding the tournament - you would rather keep the 32 team set up currently, but then only allow the top 16 to qualify for the tournament? I guess if that's the case - I would just rather see 5A and 6A be combined again and have the top 32 teams of that 64 team class qualify for the tournament.

I'm saying that is an alternative to the 24 team playoff. 6A is fine as is and doesn't need tweaked for the betterment of 8 teams on the premise of an enrollment disadvantaged. 

21 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

As opposed to a qualifier that gives the ~top 8 teams only a bye? Like you realize there would be a pool of 16 other teams that could theoretically win a state championship playing 5 games.

Why remove (punish) 16 teams completely from participating as opposed to rewarding 8 teams and letting everyone still play in the tournament?

Because teams that go 0-9, 1-8 don't deserve to be in a tournament that crowns a state champion in the first place. But that is for a different time and thread. 

18 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

nteresting that @Footballking16 you would rather see 6A go to a 16 team tournament as opposed to this 24 team option. Especially since 16 team tournament would equal only having to win 4 games to be crowned as a state champion... which you said you could not get on board with. 🤔

If you only need to win 4 games to be crowned state champion, I'd prefer a qualifier that cuts the field in half. 16 teams means 4 games for everyone. 

35 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I know I am kind of talking to myself here, but I could get on board with a 24 team class 6A as long as the tournament was seeded. Otherwise, I just cannot get behind the proposal knowing a team could go 0-9 or 1-8 and host a sectional championship. I provided a bracket earlier showing how last year's 6A tournament with 24 teams could have been arranged by taking two pods of 12 teams (North/South). Here are all three of the potential brackets depending on how you would want to split them up. Seeding determined by Sagarin ratings at the end of last years tournament because I cannot find what the ratings were after the regular season.

In my opinion, 3 team sectionals are not great at all when it comes to matchups. I either like the potential for 4, 6-team Regionals or my previously shown 2, 12-team North/South split.

 

 

Not sure I could get on board w a team only having to win 4 games to be crowned a state champion. If you’re going that route where a team only needs to win 4 games, better off cutting 6A in half at the end of the regular season. Would at least be a more competitive tournament.

24 minutes ago, MICFan34 said:

And amazingly enough, there's been several programs in the last 5 years with enrollments WHO WERE 5A programs or barely in 6A by enrollment who have won a sectional: Zionsville 2019 (played Ben Davis tough in regionals), Valpo (close loss to Carmel in Semistate), Cathedral (4A Enrollment) (lost to Ben Davis in Regionals and lost to Avon in OT in regionals), Ft. Wayne Snider (two close losses to Carmel in regionals). YET I bet fans of these programs were not complaining or moaning about losing to a team that had an enrollment advantage. 

It's not an enrollment problem. Never has been. Two best teams in the HCC this year were also the two smallest enrollment schools. Both made it to their respective state finals. 

23 minutes ago, MICFan34 said:

Here are the sectional alignments from last year with how each of the schools rank in the state in enrollment. I did not see Elkhart's so I added their consolidated enrollments and they came in about 10th-ish. 

Sectional 1: Crown Point (12), Laf Jeff (27), Merrillville (25), Lake Central (6), Winner: Merrillville (25)

Sectional 2: Chesterton (28), Elkhart (10th-ish) , Penn (6), Portage (19), Winner: Elkhart (10)

Sectional 3: Snider (39), Homestead (20) Carroll (21), Warsaw (26th) Winner: Homestead (20)

Sectional 4: Fishers (5th), HSE (9th), Noblesville (11th), Westfield (22), Winner: Westfield (22)

Sectional 5: Avon (10), Brownsburg (13), Carmel (1), Pike (8), Winner: Carmel (1)

Sectional 6: Ben Davis (2), Perry Meridian (18), Southport (24), Tech (15), Winner: Ben Davis (2)

Sectional 7: Lawrence Central (23), Lawrence North (16), North Central (4), Warren Central (3), Winner: Warren Central (3)

Sectional 8: Franklin Central (14), Columbus East (62), Columbus North (28), Center Grove (17), Winner: Center Grove (17)

After looking at this, there's only a FEW teams that have a legit gripe about enrollment in their sectional:

1. Chesterton (They lost to a 1A school and 4A school by enrollment-albeit two quality programs) They would not win in a class below them. 

2. Westfield (They made it to the 6A State championship, beating #11, #5, #20, #25 (enrollments) in the tournament)

3. Perry (They won 1 game in a 4A-5A conference, they would not win a class below them)

4. Southport (They have won 2 sectionals in the past 10 years, losing to CG in Regionals each time. They have a respectable record over the last 10 years but would probably lose to Decatur, Plainfield, Cathedral, New Pal in sectionals each year.)

5. Tech (Socio-economic factors will make them an afterthought and would not win anything in a class below them)

6. Success Factor Teams (C-East & Snider)

Thank you for actually doing this. I figured it would look something like this and looks even better visually. This entire argument is a farce. Dummying down 6A does nothing to enhance either the 5A or 6A tournament. 

26 minutes ago, BTF said:

So the attitude toward those eight schools is "you never have and you never will?"

The tournament is designed to crown the best team, not cater to individual schools. We currently don't have seeding, let alone a qualification format, I'd say those 8 schools have it as good as they are going to get it. Again, the problem isn't mega-school enrollments. It's a Center Grove, Carmel, Warren, BD problem. If you magically removed Ben Davis and Warren from the equation, people would still complain about a Center Grove and Carmel problem.

Simple solution is to permanently move Carmel to the South. Would still make for blowouts in the state title game but you'd at least get better representation from the North. A lot more practical solution than further diluting an already diluted field. 

15 minutes ago, statmurp_10 said:

This is so accurate. And this situation has been around for about 40 or more years. My question would be this. How was it, that the state of Texas was allowed to initiate this phenomena without the non-public schools bulking and filing any litigation for being discriminated against, just because they are non-public? Was it one of those issues, where the public majority schools had the upper hand with no repercussion?

 

Probably because Texas is 5-6x the size of Indiana and thus likely has the appropriate amount of schools to put on several non-public tournaments. Not feasible in Indiana.

20 minutes ago, BTF said:

I'm still in the discussion, just not necessarily with him. I can't help someone who doesn't understand  that a team of 4000 has an advantage over a team of 2000. We all know Catholic schools have an advantage, so it's hard to take them seriously on the issue of enrollment.

There's two freaking schools in the state that have 4000+ students. THOSE ARE THE OUTLIERS. Dummying down the system, again, because of two schools, for the benefit of 8 is stupid (and wrong). An overwhelming majority of 8 teams listed don't ever play Carmel or Ben Davis in the tournament because they can't get out of sectionals against like-sized publics. It's a neanderthal argument. 

37 minutes ago, DT said:

Its easy to pontificate from the top of Mt Cathedral

 

Cathedral has been the smallest enrollment school in their class since the inception of the SF and by this time next year will be competing in a class two above their normal enrollment for the second time. What in the hell are you talking about?

22 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You pass Go in the game of Checkers?

 

YoU DiDN't KNoW ThAt?

You have lost your damn mind.

1 minute ago, BTF said:

Just to be clear. It's "embarrassing" for a coach to want to play similar sized schools? After Cathedral beats South Adams 56-14, are you going to thump your chest claiming you're the greatest? Or are you going say, "you know what, we have a major advantage over that program." Enrollments Matter

We’ve been over this. Mark Bless has ZERO issue scheduling schools like Guerin or Gibson Southern when it’s convenient (non-elimination). Columbus North has a larger enrollment disparity over Gibson Southern than Carmel does over Columbus North. Columbus North hasn’t had their season ended by a mega-enrollment school since they lost to Warren in 2006. They can’t beat Center Grove, they can’t beat Franklin Central, hell they lost to Jeffersonville a few years back. This idea that CN is being held back because they lose year in and year out to schools twice their size is nothing short of delusion. The idea that the IHSAA needs to dummy down another class, again, for 7-8 schools, is ridiculous.

10 minutes ago, DT said:

Merrillville Coach Brad Seiss basically admitted to the fact that his school is counting down the days until they are reclassed into 5A.  Read the interview.  Its pretty cut and dried.  I'm sure many others feel the same.  Tim Bless certainly agrees with the Merrillville POV.

Embarrassing.

Merrillville and Columbus North can’t beat the like-sized public’s they go against in the 6A tournament. Blaming their lack of postseason success on enrollment disadvantage that really doesn’t affect either program shows how far away either program is from contending for a state championship regardless of what class they’re in.

3 minutes ago, DT said:

Lets put names and faces on some of these programs :

Columbus North Bulldogs

Warsaw Tigers

Merrillville Pirates

Valparaiso Vikings

Chesterton Trojans

Southport Cardinals

Jeffersonville Red Devils

Fort Wayne Snider Panthers

Lafayette Jefferson Bronchos

Are any of these schools less valuable in the eyes of the IHSAA than those in The MIC or The HCC?

Do we have a caste system in Indiana football where schools are valued by the amount of their resources?

Is a football state championship any less desirable at Jeff than it is at Carmel?

Lets treat these schools with the respect they deserve.  The IHSAA does not treat them as equals.  That needs to change.

 

 

 

Lol what?

Name the last time a mega-enrollment school ended Columbus North’s season? 10-15 years ago? Warsaw? They need to worry about beating Homestead or Carroll first.

Valpo and Snider aren’t even in 6A.

There’s two teams that have a legitimate gripe as they play in loaded sectionals; LC and Southport. Is bumping LC and Southport to 5A to routinely play in sectionals with the Cathedral’s, Roncalli’s, and New Pal’s of 5A a seismic difference? No.

What does BD and Warren’s enrollment have anything to do with lack of postseason success for the majority of the schools you listed? Nothing.

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

I’m indifferent.  I will say that 6A is pretty damn boring and football is the ultimate numbers game.  I do like to see fresh blood.

I’m intrigued by the idea but that’s as far as I’ll go.  
 

Would 6A be any different if it was rescinded to 24 teams? 12? 6? Not sure it would. 

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

Have I commented one way or another in this thread regarding realignment?

You are trying too hard...you and @gonzoronroommates?

Never said you commented on it. I asked you a question though as it relates to this thread. 
 

Do you think 6A needs to be realigned due to mega-enrollment schools for the betterment of a handful of programs?

18 minutes ago, temptation said:

Penn is not what they used to be but they are far from the door mat you portray them to be.

Does 6A warrant realignment because of Penn? Fishers, North Central, Pike, Lake Central, HSE; all top 10 enrollments? I didn't think so. 

35 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

Off topic- I never played Candyland as a child (nor as an adult). 

Underrated?

Overrated?

 

Didn't miss much.

Mouse Trap (pain in the ass to set up but worth it) and Operation were the way to go. 

Lost in all this nonsense about enrollment is the real root of the problem; tournament alignment. 

We aren't having this conversation if Carmel went South every year. By my count, there are 6 mega school enrollments who go North; Fishers, Penn, HSE, Lake Central, Noblesville, and Crown Point. No one would give a damn and complain about a mega-enrollment disadvantage if a team like Warsaw or Carroll were losing to teams like Lake Central and Crown Point. 

A school like Columbus North can't compete in 6A not because they are at an enrollment disadvantage but because they can't beat the like-sized public school 30 miles up the road. Same goes for Warsaw, Lafayette Jeff, Chesterton. These teams aren't bowing out every year to Carmel, Warren, BD, they can't even get out sectionals. It's a silly and preposterous argument. 

19 minutes ago, BTF said:

And 2+2 dosen't =4. Common sense has gone completely out the window.

Clearly.

I missed where Center Grove had a mega-enrollment?

21 minutes ago, temptation said:

Penn and Fishers are “terrible” huh?  Both have played in the state finals recently.

Penn and Fishers are no better than the majority of the 8 teams DT is petitioning to move to 5A. It's not an enrollment issue. 

21 minutes ago, temptation said:

So, it’s NOT enrollment and it’s NOT socioeconomics...so it’s ALL culture I’m betting?

What else is it then? If you're a school with 3000+ students and only a quarter or so of your students are on free/reduced lunch, how is it anything other than a culture issue?

21 minutes ago, temptation said:

So, when is Edinburgh scheduling Carmel?  They seem to have turned the corner when it comes to culture based on DT’s interview last week.

The same week Center Grove schedules the Colts. Nonsensical whataboutism. 

34 minutes ago, temptation said:

Not sure why I am still surprised you don't get it.  All schools of equal enrollment are not equal on the playing field due to off the field factors.  I've explained this to you dozens of times.  I've given countless examples.

Westfield and CG's 2500 students are nowhere near a fair comparison to Arsenal Tech's.

And I've given you countless example of why outside factors (namely socioeconomic factors) don't really mean a damn thing. Of the 11-12 would be considered "mega-enrollment schools":

-Carmel

-Ben Davis

-Warren

-North Central

-Fishers

-Penn

-Lake Central

-Pike

-HSE

-Avon

-Noblesville

-Crown Point

Literally half of those schools are non-factors in 6A. Penn, Lake Central, Noblesville, Fishers all have extremely high socioeconomic factors and very few free and reduced lunch and are still terrible at football. HSE is very average given the factors you ascribe to be a winning formula and North Central as of 2-3 years ago was absolutely terrible. Throw in Pike as well. 

We're better off making a separate class for Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren, and Center Grove because it clearly isn't a mega-enrollment problem. 

20 minutes ago, temptation said:

20 years ago, both Warren and BD had free/reduced lunch rates well under 50 percent.

You’re playing checkers here dude.

Checkers? Dude, you haven't even passed Go yet. Everything you've stated is instantly debunked when it comes to socioeconomic factors (see post above).

15 minutes ago, temptation said:

20 years ago, there were zero schools over 4000 students and CG was sitting over 2000 already.

"Cathedral competes with 1200!  Why can't everyone???"

So how does Center Grove compete better today at a much larger enrollment disadvantage than they did 20 years ago?? It ain't about enrollment.