hhpatriot04

Cutler got his first start at QB in 1998 when the senior was injured against Southridge. Cutler, better athlete than Grossman then, better college QB than Grossman, and better NFL QB, especially for the Bears. Truth: https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/8/31/22648501/chicago-bears-qb-ranking-jay-cutler-mitch-trubisky-justin-fields

It should be open to all classes -- just as the Heisman is.

My niece should be a very talented second grader in soccer and dance next year -- I don't think she has locked on to a spring sport yet.. We are working on setting up her "permanent" residence at my father's in Santa Claus so she can go to HHHS, but the Castle AD is unwilling to sign off. It is going to take some strong arming or a bribe (Any advice? I hear Memorial are experts in the Castle talent pipeline... do you find it's best to meet in the Starbucks on Burkhardt or in Newburgh? 😛). Or in seven years, I am going to have to start caring about Castle athletics.

Touche! Just wanted to communicate that before we start inputting (160 games * 10 weeks + tournament games) * 15 years, we want something relatively simple and transparent (like a season of a closed conference, so we can write, test, debug, then enrich the rankings.

Every game ever played would be factored in (eventually), but of course the more recent ones would have more "weight" -- determining how to set that weight in a relatively non-arbitrary way is the question... Standard deviations for example are better than saying "This season = 0.4, previous season = 0.2, two years ago = 0.1, all other previous seasons = 0.3" (or something similar).

I've used the PHP curl() functions to populate my predictor ratings (you should look at using curl() in whatever language you're using - big time saver). It has always bugged me -- and it is hard to say that because he does so much -- that Harrell doesn't keep a weekly list of scores online (he of course must have this on the backend). To the best of my knowledge, he does all of his data storage and calculations offline and then uploads them to static pages. That's pretty old school, but not surprising. When I was working at the H-T, I actually played with some of his REGEX scripts which would use an early version of JavaScript to pull scores from the Associated Press wire and format them so they would fit on the newspaper's scoreboard pages and have consistent naming systems, for example, all colleges with "State" were automatically abbreviated to St, all colleges with cardinal directions North/South/No/North/So/South would be replaced with N or S. Those scripts at the Bloomington Herald-Times he first developed in the late 1980s-1990s. Well at least I don't feel so bad "lifting" his scores, as I know from experience they are more reliable than the press wires like AP. For example, if you got a bad HS score from a wire service, Harrell's site was probably 90% more likely to have the accurate score prior to print deadline.

My thought on classes is they don't really matter. I'd favor a system that showed no bias directly built in by class. For single year rankings, this could create discrepancies, but if you start factoring in something like "Program Prestige" and "Recent Program Prestige," it should all work out. This would also help to address when say you have multiple Top 4 teams in a class in the same sectional... If you factor in previous years' success, then teams like HH or GS in the same sectional or Chatard and Roncalli don't get penalized simply because of arbitrary lines and arbitrary geography. It will probably take at least 10 years of data, but I'm hoping to eventually get it to something like CalPreps where you could compare teams from different decades... What if Roncalli 2004 played Cathedral 2021... etc.

Please keep everything on the Google Drive Sheet shared above. While Excel and Google Sheets share much of the same nomenclature, Google Sheets does have some differences, especially if we have to start tying it into macros and other projects. As you can see from the above link, I just created a small sample of games with six teams. It needs some work to develop the SoS argument. I have mainly been using the countif() and countifs() functions for pulling such data. In all, I think it is best to get something working on a small scale (lets say a closed conference like the SIAC), and then introduce the other 300-something teams. Unfortunately, not using something like Python/PHP and SQL means we can't leave comments in the "code." However, Google Sheets does have the ability to leave comments on individual cells. Good to see that there is interest and thank you @Rudy for volunteering the data so we don't have to dig it up from the Associated Press or rip it off of Harrell's site. Can I ask, what is your current input method for game nights? Source and method of input? Are you using a form or inputting directly into a table or database?

Well said. I'm not sure I would invoke deities, but I agree with what you are trying to focus on. People are people, and we are all mature enough to know that within any group of people there are some bad apples. Undoubtedly, this instance will be a learning experience for all involved, in particular the youth. Yes, this is a football board. If you aren't interested in this topic, don't click on it and don't post ... curate the content that you want to see on TGD Forums.

CUB? Pre-7th grade Castle had the only tackle football leagues for a while, but I don't see why you'd want the AAU basketball or travel baseball (don't get me started unless it's American Legion or American Legion JV) for football. Seems to work better for "individual sports": wrestling, swimming/diving, tennis, golf, running clubs, etc... Also Jasper's little secret in addition to Coach Gobert is American Legion JV baseball (in addition to a tremendous city/local youth program). I'll never slight Rockport American Legion, but Coach Gobert's approach of using American Legion baseball (not allowing graduates -- they typically play for the Jasper Reds if they're going to college) is genius. He gets his players for 30+ HS games per year and then 30+ Legion games.

All-time (non-Evansville + Castle): - Jasper - Heritage Hills - Southridge - Gibson Southern (hard to place as they've had a solid decade of success, but were a C+ program most years -- sometimes better, sometimes worse post consolidation) - Vincennes Lincoln - Mount Vernon / Boonville - Perry Central / South Spencer - Tell City (gets a boost with the 1980s and early 1990s in the consolidation era)

Mater Dei faired pretty well in 3A pre success factor. If Mater Dei is coming to 3A, SW Indiana is absolutely loaded in 3A... I don't think the IHSAA publicly said the success factor was directed at P/P schools... Whether they were just being PC or ignoring the elephant in the room...who knows. Believe me, I feel the struggle at Southridge. I would've likely been playing in 4A if the success factor were implemented when I was in school -- that being said there were debates that 3A was better than 4A in the early 2000s, as for example in 2001, Jasper was the 4A state champion and their only loss was to Heritage Hills, which was only beaten by Chatard from 2000-2003... I haven't been able to follow baseball as closely as I once did in SW Indiana, but with Jasper and Southridge's state championships... what is the forecast for Class 2A and 3A with regular powers like South Spencer, Mater Dei, and Southridge (I think Jasper has proven they can play in any class in Indiana, competitively. There are some great baseball coach bios to be written in SW Indiana, Gobert's in particular.) I've always kind of jokingly referred to Jasper as a semi-P/P. Much like Castle, Carmel, and Center Grove, they as you know, have such dedicated boosters and are able to have nearly 100% autonomy from their youth leagues to the HS ... in addition to "generational success" which I attribute to jobs. Many of my former teammates are putting roots down in Jasper. I'm sure it's the same for some Raiders, Rangers, Jeeps, and other surrounding schools. Maybe those who are able to work remotely will be able to come back to Spencer County, but if you have a degree or two, often your occupation isn't available in rural SW Indiana. That being said, a number parents of current HH student-athletes make the drive to Evansville, Owensboro, Louisville, or Jasper (or even Crane) -- these are often the legacy families with deep land and familial ties to the rural community.

Agree on all but GS playing a 5A+ SOS. What was their SOS Sagarin ranking?

Did he play any varsity his sophomore year at MV? It could affect the willingness of MV to sign off.

Mater Dei wrestling breeds linemen! They'll figure it out.

Yep.... For better or worse, money and influence talk.

It's just quasi data for the sake of developing a working rating system... Change the base score, but only if you contribute to the rating algorithm!

Credible source?

Who is "you?" I'm the biggest proponent of the First Ammendment who you will find. Stay between the lines of truth and decency and there are zero problems here. I also don't know the intricacies. Post publicly reported or seen facts and we are good. I remember when Westfield was a right turn on McDonalds. My sister went from 1992-1994. My stomach has dealt with treatments at Mayo and living in Iraq for 5+ years. Stick to the media reports and we won't have a problem with this thread. No one is saying Westfield is a certain high school that starts with a "M" and ends with a "ville" three decades ago. Acknowledging what truthfully happened is a first step. ~ Chris

I don't think you'd find many HH fans betting that the Patriots would beat Memorial in 2019. It was a good Heritage Hills team, but maybe not even Coach Wilkerson's best -- just his most successful. I biasedly prefer the 2003 HH-EVM matchup. HH, without any real DI players (Seifrig graduated the year before ... one sophomore who lettered went on to play DI), also beat Mater Dei in the same sectional and Jasper (coming off a 4A State Championship) during the regular season. The 1990s had some great games, HH was better in the 2000s, and Memorial has been the better program over the past 10 years. That's my objective take and I'm sure I'll take some flack from my own school for saying so.

Historically... Reitz or Jasper. The tournament, classes, and now the success factor have all changed how we can measure the success of programs. But seriously, Reitz, what is going on? Mater Dei certainly isn't the MD of yesteryear, but with the success factor and the SIAC schedule and Coach Goebel, it can handle Class 2A South most years (I don't think these MD teams have the talent of the 00's)... As much heck as I have given Reitz, SW Indiana needs you to help elevate big class football in SW Indiana. Memorial, Jasper, and for a few years Central did so, but "Let's Go Panthers!"

OK, the story is credible with local media reports. That has always been the standard for allowing such content. Keep all comments above board, constructive, non-speculative, and decent. "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all" is how this thread will be moderated. Any racial slurs, direct or indirect, will result in indefinite bans until the admins and mods decide otherwise. Best, ~ Chris

I love all the ranking systems out there -- Sagarin, Almanac Sports (shoutout to @Rudy) CalPreps, USAToday, MaxPreps, Play Football NFL (just for top teams), etc... With the advent of Google Docs, it is easier than ever to collaborate on projects. Is there any interest in developing open source rankings for TGD? Here is an editable Google Sheet with six teams (this year's state champions) and six weeks of games (round robin) with fictitious, but realistic score data. I have set up this Google Sheet using my GridironDigest email. If you are interested in being involved with this, sound off! It will be a long term project, but no better time than the present (and the off season) to talk about it. Thoughts? I am open to using other software, but I have some experience with Google Sheets, Forms, and Scripts... Just based on the above data, I think a good first step would be to automatically calculate: - Total_Win_Percentage (by team) - Home_Win_Percentage (by team) - Away_Win_Percentage (by team) - With this, we can develop a simple "Top 6" based solely on Win_Percentage FYI: Anyone with access to the aforementioned Google Sheet link can edit. Edits are trackable and changes are reversible. Please use the comments section within Google Docs or on this thread if you make any big changes. Interested to see where this goes!

Let's see if CG can continue that for 15 years. My prediction is once Cathedral gets to 6A that CG, WC, and even Carmel won't be able to keep up. Cathedral also benefits from many other factors like boosters, a youth league that spans the city, academics and extracurriculars which have always been top notch. I don't see that changing anytime soon. My argument has never been the P/Ps directly benefit from "poaching" -- even prior to open enrollment; open enrollment actually benefits city/suburban schools far more than rural schools due to distance. P/Ps benefit from all the reasons (mostly socially economically driven or at least correlated) which I mentioned. Standards and expectations are higher from chorus to debate club to athletics. Cathedral is the best positioned P/P in the state to compete with the mega schools and they will figure out a way -- just give them some time. Disclaimer: I was born in Carmel, went to HS at Heritage Hills, had multiple family members go to Manuel, Carmel, Westfield (pre-2000), North Central, Cathedral, and Chatard. I'm well aware of the intricacies and changes of city, township, "suburban sprawl", private, and parochial schools in the Indy area.

You typically don't see the OL separated into positions for the PAC. If memory serves me correct, it's typically just a blanket OL (and you may end up with more than five players). With the different offenses and defenses, the teams askew positions year-to-year, as some teams run even/odd defensive fronts leaving the DE either as a DL or LB. This can also happen with DBs and LBs, if a player is a "Rover" SS/LB split. When all is said, they do a pretty good job of making the list flexible to try and include the best players -- classic example is two good QBs and one getting moved to DB or P/K if they played it. I'd suggest adding 2-4 ATH positions and then just limiting the offensive and defensive teams to 11 (plus a K & P). Who would be the FB this year either in a Wishbone or some form of the Flexbone (just for short yardage...)? Actually, some kind of Pistol/Run-N-Shoot would be interesting this year as TEs were in short supply. I've always thought the Run-N-Shoot circa 1990s NFL has been underused in HS. HS went from Power -> Pro (one TE, two WR/tight slot) -> Variations of the spread. Timing is really hard to get right with the Pistol, but when executed well, everything goes downhill and you have the options of the Wing T with long and short motion, options, shovel passes, play action, screens. And no GS spread!