25 Years of Sagarin (6A)

[hhpatriot04]

So is there a consensus 1999-2023 Top 3 for 6A -- I'm talking about the best teams from that period and not programs?

[hhpatriot04]

On 7/12/2024 at 6:25 AM, FastpacedO said:

I am very well aware of the fact Sagarin only measures in-state performances. It is the single largest flaw of the Sagarin ratings. 

The reason Sagarin only measures in-state performances has absolutely nothing to do with out of state games can be played with different set of rules. With Indiana's travel rules all the states that Indiana could play against are members of the NHFS (Illinois, Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Missouri). So any changes in rules would be very minor (like running clock that has only recently been used in Indiana).

The reason Sagarin does not measure out of state opponents is because it does not want to gather data of the out of state opponents record and their opponents record etc.

Ultimately it does not matter because Indiana's football tournament is an all in format with no seeding. So you don't need rankings only ping pong balls and a bingo tumbler. Ohio has a terrific computer ranking system. If you want accurate computer rankings, Sagarin is not accurate because not every team in Indiana plays only Indiana schools, it also can become inaccurate when a conference has no out of conference competition.

I sleep perfectly fine every night.

It's perfectly accurate to measure in-state performances.

[temptation]

27 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

So is there a consensus 1999-2023 Top 3 for 6A -- I'm talking about the best teams from that period and not programs?

Eye Test:

1.   2006 Warren

2.  2018 Warren

3.  2017 BD

[Komets2727]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:55 PM, BTF said:

Lol, thanks. Can't say I remember the 1981 team though. I'm just going off stories that I heard. That was the Rod Woodson team. 

The Woodson team was great, coaching not so much that year…

[Komets2727]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:48 PM, BTF said:

My wife wonders how I can remember a football game from 20 years ago but I can't remember what we did yesterday. 

Crap, I don’t remember what happened 5 minutes ago… At least that is what my wife tells me

Edited July 19, 2024 by Komets2727

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:48 PM, BTF said:

My wife wonders how I can remember a football game from 20 years ago but I can't remember what we did yesterday. 

A game from 20 years ago was probably more memorable than going to work on a mundane week day. lol 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 7/18/2024 at 4:48 PM, temptation said:

Eye Test:

1.   2006 Warren

2.  2018 Warren

3.  2017 BD

I am not saying they are in the top three or could compete with any of these three teams, because well we know what the 06 and 17 teams did to Penn. 

But, if it weren't for an egregious call in the regional game in 2002 the nationally ranked Penn team was the best Penn team I have ever seen take the field. Dominated BD in Indy and ravaged that Saginaw team that was also nationally ranked with Lamarr Woodley.

Aug. 23		Valparaiso	W	31	7
Aug. 30	at	Ben Davis	W	30	14
Sep. 6	at	South Bend Washington	W	69	0
Sep. 13		South Bend Riley	W	61	12
Sep. 20		Saginaw (Mich.)	W	49	7
Sep. 27	at	South Bend Clay	W	35	12
Oct. 4	at	South Bend Adams	W	65	0
Oct. 11		Mishawaka	W	51	0
Oct. 18	at	Elkhart Central	W	63	13
Oct. 25	at	Elkhart Memorial	W	42	7		sect
Nov. 1		Elkhart Central	W	63	0		sect
Nov. 8	at	Goshen	W	31	0		sect

That is every game leading up to the regional game. I think that loss shook the state and BD goes on to an easy state title win. Shoulda woulda coulda. Damn shame that it ended in Valpo and not in Indy.

Edited July 20, 2024 by BLACKGOLD2007

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On another note, did anyone notice the common theme in the second graph...A lot of those teams read Ben Davis, Warren or Carmel. Lol

Sorry wrong thread. 

[BTF]

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I am not saying they are in the top three or could compete with any of these three teams, because well we know what the 06 and 17 teams did to Penn. 

But, if it weren't for an egregious call in the regional game in 2002 the nationally ranked Penn team was the best Penn team I have ever seen take the field. Dominated BD in Indy and ravaged that Saginaw team that was also nationally ranked with Lamarr Woodley.

Aug. 23		Valparaiso	W	31	7
Aug. 30	at	Ben Davis	W	30	14
Sep. 6	at	South Bend Washington	W	69	0
Sep. 13		South Bend Riley	W	61	12
Sep. 20		Saginaw (Mich.)	W	49	7
Sep. 27	at	South Bend Clay	W	35	12
Oct. 4	at	South Bend Adams	W	65	0
Oct. 11		Mishawaka	W	51	0
Oct. 18	at	Elkhart Central	W	63	13
Oct. 25	at	Elkhart Memorial	W	42	7		sect
Nov. 1		Elkhart Central	W	63	0		sect
Nov. 8	at	Goshen	W	31	0		sect

That is every game leading up to the regional game. I think that loss shook the state and BD goes on to an easy state title win. Shoulda woulda coulda. Damn shame that it ended in Valpo and not in Indy.

Them Vikings are have heart and determination. See 2022. 

[BDGiant93]

On 7/17/2024 at 9:25 AM, KmartGiant said:

I remember reading an article that said BD was the largest "township" HS in America in the 1950's. What does that mean? I an not sure if it means county HS or what. Townships generally just represent an area. Also the 1988 BD team that was 14-0 was also #4 in the final USA today poll and loaded with stars like RB Thomas "Tank" Adams and WR Scott McGowen was a beast of a team. The 2001 team is one of my favorites as they finished #4 too nationally. The Banks botched punt (high snap to him) that resulted in an official 115 yard TD due to him running back to the end zone from the 15 yard line still amazes me. And I'll never forget the 99 regional vs Arlington and Mr. Football Derrick Ellis. 1 second on the clock and 5'4" kicker Damon Fine launched a 56 yard field goal to win it. The fans trampled me pretty good and I lost a shoe under the old home field bleachers. Nothing like walking to your car with 1 shoe lol. 

That kick was remarkable. 

[FastpacedO]

On 7/18/2024 at 4:17 PM, hhpatriot04 said:

It's perfectly accurate to measure in-state performances.

It sounds good except last year there were 87 games against out of State schools (some years that number is higher and some lower). So as mentioned Sagarin is flawed and inaccurate since there were 87 games played against teams outside of Indiana. If all teams only played Indiana schools it would be prefect, but that is not the reality we live in. If the State were to go to any form of seeding Sagarin would not be the proper system to use.

[FastpacedO]

On 7/20/2024 at 7:47 AM, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I am not saying they are in the top three or could compete with any of these three teams, because well we know what the 06 and 17 teams did to Penn. 

But, if it weren't for an egregious call in the regional game in 2002 the nationally ranked Penn team was the best Penn team I have ever seen take the field. Dominated BD in Indy and ravaged that Saginaw team that was also nationally ranked with Lamarr Woodley.

Aug. 23		Valparaiso	W	31	7
Aug. 30	at	Ben Davis	W	30	14
Sep. 6	at	South Bend Washington	W	69	0
Sep. 13		South Bend Riley	W	61	12
Sep. 20		Saginaw (Mich.)	W	49	7
Sep. 27	at	South Bend Clay	W	35	12
Oct. 4	at	South Bend Adams	W	65	0
Oct. 11		Mishawaka	W	51	0
Oct. 18	at	Elkhart Central	W	63	13
Oct. 25	at	Elkhart Memorial	W	42	7		sect
Nov. 1		Elkhart Central	W	63	0		sect
Nov. 8	at	Goshen	W	31	0		sect

That is every game leading up to the regional game. I think that loss shook the state and BD goes on to an easy state title win. Shoulda woulda coulda. Damn shame that it ended in Valpo and not in Indy.

Definitely would have been interesting. The 2002 Ben Davis team had 3 losses that year. Penn 30-14, Warren Central 17-14 in OT, and Center Grove 17-16 in the regular season. They avenged the loss to Warren Central in Regionals winning 35-28 in OT (both games with WC went to OT) and avenged the loss to Center Grove in Semi-State winning 21-3. After Valpo's 16-15 win over Penn they lost to FW Snider 28-17 to Snider in FW. Snider lost to BD in State 31-7. Would have definitely been interesting.

[BTF]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

Definitely would have been interesting. The 2002 Ben Davis team had 3 losses that year. Penn 30-14, Warren Central 17-14 in OT, and Center Grove 17-16 in the regular season. They avenged the loss to Warren Central in Regionals winning 35-28 in OT (both games with WC went to OT) and avenged the loss to Center Grove in Semi-State winning 21-3. After Valpo's 16-15 win over Penn they lost to FW Snider 28-17 to Snider in FW. Snider lost to BD in State 31-7. Would have definitely been interesting.

That was Penn's year. Every program has that "one" game they'd like to do over. Snider played the game of their lives against Valpo, they weren't going to lose to them two year in a row. I don't think Snider was ready for the truck that was about to hit them in Ben Davis. I think Penn would have been ready. 

[PDB26]

On 7/20/2024 at 7:47 AM, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I am not saying they are in the top three or could compete with any of these three teams, because well we know what the 06 and 17 teams did to Penn. 

But, if it weren't for an egregious call in the regional game in 2002 the nationally ranked Penn team was the best Penn team I have ever seen take the field. Dominated BD in Indy and ravaged that Saginaw team that was also nationally ranked with Lamarr Woodley

I don't think what happened in '03––I'm assuming you mean '03 and not '06 where Penn didn't get out of the sectional––should reflect on that 2002 team at all. The 2002 team was the opposite of the team in 2003 in many ways. They were old and experienced with 19 senior starters, ten or more multi-year starters, and seniors filling out most of the 2-deep. Only a handful of underclassmen played meaningful downs that season. That team would be in a game with any team from 2000-2010. The farther out we get and the more things change with the game and training, it's hard to say how they'd stack up against more recent teams and athletes, but that team had some great athletes. 

On 7/20/2024 at 9:46 AM, BTF said:

Them Vikings are have heart and determination. See 2022. 

It doesn't hurt that they grow them sturdy over there either!

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 7/22/2024 at 3:01 PM, PDB26 said:

I don't think what happened in '03––I'm assuming you mean '03 and not '06 where Penn didn't get out of the sectional––should reflect on that 2002 team at all. The 2002 team was the opposite of the team in 2003 in many ways. They were old and experienced with 19 senior starters, ten or more multi-year starters, and seniors filling out most of the 2-deep. Only a handful of underclassmen played meaningful downs that season. That team would be in a game with any team from 2000-2010. The farther out we get and the more things change with the game and training, it's hard to say how they'd stack up against more recent teams and athletes, but that team had some great athletes. 

It doesn't hurt that they grow them sturdy over there either!

Yeah fat fingered that one. I think the 02 Penn team would have made those state finals games more interesting, but those were the two best teams (Warren and BD) I had ever seen take a high school football field in Indiana. That isn't a dig at the Carmel team that smashed Penn in state either. 

[PDB26]

On 7/30/2024 at 11:14 AM, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Yeah fat fingered that one. I think the 02 Penn team would have made those state finals games more interesting, but those were the two best teams (Warren and BD) I had ever seen take a high school football field in Indiana. That isn't a dig at the Carmel team that smashed Penn in state either. 

All I can say for sure is that '02 Penn and '03 Warren Central would have been a great high school football game.