Coaches Confidential: Is tournament success factor working? What about private schools?

[US31]

 

7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I didn't say that. But using your "clearinghouse method" of counting enrollment, Tech would likely become a 3A or 4A school and Washington a 1A or 2A school. None of which matters because it doesn't magically make either a better football program. Tech would not win an Indy-area 3A or 4A sectional and same for Washington in 1A or 2A. 

I don't have a goal of ensuring anyone's success.  I have a goal of counting enrollment based upon the amount of kids in the building that participate in "something"...literally any extracurricular activity.

Edited August 20, 2024 by US31

[Muda69]

21 minutes ago, US31 said:

 I have a goal of counting enrollment based upon the amount of kids in the building that participate in "something"...literally any extracurricular activity.

So a kid that goes to one meeting of the after school chess club in late August, then never goes again, would count?

 

28 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

See my post above

I did see your post. Hence my response.

 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I did see your post. Hence my response.

I am vehemently against a system of promotion and relegation based on results at the high school level. It isn't feasible. 

[US31]

23 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So a kid that goes to one meeting of the after school chess club in late August, then never goes again, would count?

 

Basically*.  Kids want to be in Band, Sports, Theater....they fill out a form in August.  Total number of those kids is your "clearinghouse" enrollment.  Someone smarter than me might have some better mechanics...I could be talked in to an average of last 2 or 3 years.  My opinion (and thats all it is), is we should classify schools for athletics based on the number of kids in that school that will actually participate in things.  One set of rules for  P/P, Affluent publics, small rural schools, and adjust for a lot of things that people on both sides complain about.  I think that and the SF create the best realistic system for Indiana.  No multiplier, no separate class for P/P...my 2 cents, maybe worth that much.

(*Not much different from how DOE counts students....whoever is there on "count day" is what matters.)

[Muda69]

35 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I am vehemently against a system of promotion and relegation based on results at the high school level. It isn't feasible. 

It could be.  Just that nobody wants to face the reality that in a true promotion/relegation system  "1A" and "2A' level programs equals pretty bad football programs, regardless of enrollment.   That could make Johnny, and his parents, upset.

 

[Footballking16]

7 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

It could be.  Just that nobody wants to face the reality that in a true promotion/relegation system  "1A" and "2A' level programs equals pretty bad football programs, regardless of enrollment.   That could make Johnny, and his parents, upset.

 

A school with 2500 kids doesn't belong in a tournament with a school with 400 kids.

I'll leave it at that. 

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

A school with 2500 kids doesn't belong in a tournament with a school with 400 kids.

I'll leave it at that. 

One could also argue a school with 1073 kids doesn't belong in a tournament with a school with 5327 kids.  Yet here we are...................

[Footballking16]

5 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

One could also argue a school with 1073 kids doesn't belong in a tournament with a school with 5327 kids.  Yet here we are...................

Because of the success factor...

[Muda69]

28 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Because of the success factor...

So why don't we have the reverse?  A "failure factor" for lack of a better term. Oh yeah, because it would make Johnny and his parents sad, maybe litigious towards the IHSAA.

[Footballking16]

24 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So why don't we have the reverse?  A "failure factor" for lack of a better term. Oh yeah, because it would make Johnny and his parents sad, maybe litigious towards the IHSAA.

Because a lot more teams "fail" than succeed. How do you quantify failure with 6 classes? Every team who doesn't win a sectional moves down a class? How the hell does that work long term?

#1 Ben Davis beats #2 Brownsburg opening round of sectionals Brownsburg moves down to 5A? Sounds ridiculous, I know. 

Edited August 20, 2024 by Footballking16

[Muda69]

45 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Because a lot more teams "fail" than succeed. How do you quantify failure with 6 classes? Every team who doesn't win a sectional moves down a class? How the hell does that work long term?

#1 Ben Davis beats #2 Brownsburg opening round of sectionals Brownsburg moves down to 5A? Sounds ridiculous, I know. 

It would be some kind of points system, encompassing the regular season along with the tournament.  Which wouldn't be automatic BTW.  You would have to earn a spot in the tournament. 

 

[Footballking16]

28 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

You would have to earn a spot in the tournament.

Well now you're starting to speak my language...

[Daniel_Bragg]

45 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

It would be some kind of points system, encompassing the regular season along with the tournament.  Which wouldn't be automatic BTW.  You would have to earn a spot in the tournament. 

 

Oh God.  Not a points system again....

As a youth growing up in Sheridan, all I ever heard from my father was about the 1970-something class that went undefeated, but due to points didn't get to play in the postseason.

[Muda69]

3 minutes ago, Daniel_Bragg said:

Oh God.  Not a points system again....
 

It is how true promotion and relegation system would work:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation

 

https://www.rentonreporter.com/sports/promotion-and-relegation-in-high-school-sports-i-say-yes-commentary/

 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, Daniel_Bragg said:

Oh God.  Not a points system again....

As a youth growing up in Sheridan, all I ever heard from my father was about the 1970-something class that went undefeated, but due to points didn't get to play in the postseason.

He's not alluding to the same type of points system you're thinking about. 

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

21 hours ago, WestfieldRocks said:

He obviously never was in the position that a lot of these IPS kids are in. Neither they nor the schools have the money needed to do the summer circuit stuff. For some of them, just trying to stay alive in the neighborhoods that they live in is enough.  The schools barely have the money to keep the lights on their football fields. Go look at what Washington and Shortridge play on. Tech doesn't count, since their field got a total remake from the NFL $$$ from when Indy hosted the 2012 Superbowl. 

Hilarious. Coming from a Westfield guy. Every time I drive through Chatham Hills and Brookside, it's littered with Westfield Rocks football signs. Check yourself. You live in the least diverse, most opulent school district in the state (which includes Carmel). I grew up in the Marion County hood and know everything there is to know about almost every IPS district. There is no IPS. Marion County is the new IPS. You d-bags in the HHC are the new Marion County. When you get some sprawl from North Central, Pike, and LN, maybe Westfield can be competitive like Brownsburg and Carmel. I'd give it 3 years. Careful who you're criticizing. You'll be taking all the IPS scraps shortly and it might actually get you guys to the promised land. 

[Footballking16]

2 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Hilarious. Coming from a Westfield guy. Every time I drive through Chatham Hills and Brookside, it's littered with Westfield Rocks football signs. Check yourself. You live in the least diverse, most opulent school district in the state (which includes Carmel). I grew up in the Marion County hood and know everything there is to know about almost every IPS district. There is no IPS. Marion County is the new IPS. You d-bags in the HHC are the new Marion County. When you get some sprawl from North Central, Pike, and LN, maybe Westfield can be competitive like Brownsburg and Carmel. I'd give it 3 years. Careful who you're criticizing. You'll be taking all the IPS scraps shortly and it might actually get you guys to the promised land. 

🔥🔥🔥

[temptation]

13 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Hilarious. Coming from a Westfield guy. Every time I drive through Chatham Hills and Brookside, it's littered with Westfield Rocks football signs. Check yourself. You live in the least diverse, most opulent school district in the state (which includes Carmel). I grew up in the Marion County hood and know everything there is to know about almost every IPS district. There is no IPS. Marion County is the new IPS. You d-bags in the HHC are the new Marion County. When you get some sprawl from North Central, Pike, and LN, maybe Westfield can be competitive like Brownsburg and Carmel. I'd give it 3 years. Careful who you're criticizing. You'll be taking all the IPS scraps shortly and it might actually get you guys to the promised land. 

Some truth in this but also some inaccuracies.

Edited August 21, 2024 by temptation

[WestfieldRocks]

13 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Hilarious. Coming from a Westfield guy. Every time I drive through Chatham Hills and Brookside, it's littered with Westfield Rocks football signs. Check yourself. You live in the least diverse, most opulent school district in the state (which includes Carmel). I grew up in the Marion County hood and know everything there is to know about almost every IPS district. There is no IPS. Marion County is the new IPS. You d-bags in the HHC are the new Marion County. When you get some sprawl from North Central, Pike, and LN, maybe Westfield can be competitive like Brownsburg and Carmel. I'd give it 3 years. Careful who you're criticizing. You'll be taking all the IPS scraps shortly and it might actually get you guys to the promised land. 

Uh, Chatham and Brookside are in the Westfield City Limits, so naturally those kids would go to Westfield, unless the parents send them to Guerin. You are talking to a Cathedral grad, but back in the last days of the 14th and Meridan school. No recruiting going on then, just a bunch of Catholic kids who wanted to go to what then was a college prep school. As to growing up, I grew up in the area just north of the State Fairgrounds. Low middle class at best. More like ghetto today. Don't worry about us up here. We are doing just fine with multiple state finals appearances in the past 10 years.

[Muda69]

1 hour ago, WestfieldRocks said:

Uh, Chatham and Brookside are in the Westfield City Limits, so naturally those kids would go to Westfield, unless the parents send them to Guerin. You are talking to a Cathedral grad, but back in the last days of the 14th and Meridan school. No recruiting going on then, just a bunch of Catholic kids who wanted to go to what then was a college prep school. As to growing up, I grew up in the area just north of the State Fairgrounds. Low middle class at best. More like ghetto today. Don't worry about us up here. We are doing just fine with multiple state finals appearances in the past 10 years.

So did Westfield officially drops the letters 'sham' from the school mascot name?  Or is "Shamrocks" simply not tough enough for a football team?

 

[WestfieldRocks]

On 8/21/2024 at 9:11 AM, Muda69 said:

So did Westfield officially drops the letters 'sham' from the school mascot name?  Or is "Shamrocks" simply not tough enough for a football team?

 

They went to the shortened version years ago. Technically, it's still Shamrocks.