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Sullivan at Vincennes Lincoln


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3 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I really hope you would need more evidence than a 3 phone videos spliced together. 
 

If I was involved as a player, fan, or coach I might see things differently. I see an outside receiver running a post, and an inside receiver running a corner. 
 

The DB playing man coverage (with outside leverage) gets off balance and falls into the path of the outside receiver. 
 

That is why contact occurs. The end result is bad because the DB’s head probably hits the receiver’s knee. Unfortunate but not a penalty 

I dont care if the defender is off balance the receiver never turned his head to even look for the ball he was looking for the block.

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52 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I really hope you would need more evidence than a 3 phone videos spliced together. 
 

If I was involved as a player, fan, or coach I might see things differently. I see an outside receiver running a post, and an inside receiver running a corner. 
 

The DB playing man coverage (with outside leverage) gets off balance and falls into the path of the outside receiver. 
 

That is why contact occurs. The end result is bad because the DB’s head probably hits the receiver’s knee. Unfortunate but not a penalty 

If you watch close enough, the outside receiver braces for the contact. That to me is a dead giveaway for OPI (illegal pick) in that situation. On top of that, there were at least two different take downs by the O-line at the LOS. Prayers for the player that was hurt, but I too agree that this crew blew multiple calls on this play.

Edited by miner_35
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53 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I really hope you would need more evidence than a 3 phone videos spliced together. 
 

If I was involved as a player, fan, or coach I might see things differently. I see an outside receiver running a post, and an inside receiver running a corner. 
 

The DB playing man coverage (with outside leverage) gets off balance and falls into the path of the outside receiver. 
 

That is why contact occurs. The end result is bad because the DB’s head probably hits the receiver’s knee. Unfortunate but not a penalty 

Obviously, the better the view, the more confident one would be of the call. The view is not optimal. I gave an opinion based on what I could see, and qualified it in that way. Make of it whatever you want.

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2 hours ago, miner_35 said:

If you watch close enough, the outside receiver braces for the contact. That to me is a dead giveaway for OPI (illegal pick) in that situation. On top of that, there were at least two different take downs by the O-line at the LOS. Prayers for the player that was hurt, but I too agree that this crew blew multiple calls on this play.

No, there weren’t. Arguably - and it’s by no means certain from these views - the right OT pulls the DE down on top of him. But no good official would call holding there because the ball was out quickly enough that the DE wasn’t going to get there even without the possible holding.

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48 minutes ago, Bobref said:

No, there weren’t. Arguably - and it’s by no means certain from these views - the right OT pulls the DE down on top of him. But no good official would call holding there because the ball was out quickly enough that the DE wasn’t going to get there even without the possible holding.

Wow. If this is the criteria that you called holding, I would have held in the tackle box offensively and defensively much more. I'm really disappointed in your interpretation of the rule. We were taught offensively to jam and release (drive or form a pocket depending on the play. OL coach played at Hanover.) 

As we advanced in the tournament, we were specifically shown how certain schools got away with holding if their hands were within the chest. It all makes sense. You enabled it. 

 

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1 minute ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Wow. If this is the criteria that you called holding, I would have held in the tackle box offensively and defensively much more. I'm really disappointed in your interpretation of the rule. We were taught offensively to jam and release (drive or form a pocket depending on the play. OL coach played at Hanover.) 

As we advanced in the tournament, we were specifically shown how certain schools got away with holding if their hands were within the chest. It all makes sense. You enabled it. 

 

Don’t know how you got that from what I said. But I can tell you that is part of the philosophy of calling holding in pass protection at every level of football. Don’t be disappointed in me. Be disappointed in all of the NFL and D-1 clinicians at the dozens of officiating clinics I’ve attended over many years. Because I didn’t invent that philosophy.

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8 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Don’t know how you got that from what I said. But I can tell you that is part of the philosophy of calling holding in pass protection at every level of football. Don’t be disappointed in me. Be disappointed in all of the NFL and D-1 clinicians at the dozens of officiating clinics I’ve attended over many years. Because I didn’t invent that philosophy.

Any grasp of the jersey by a blocking player should be whistled holding, right? 

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

No, there weren’t. Arguably - and it’s by no means certain from these views - the right OT pulls the DE down on top of him. But no good official would call holding there because the ball was out quickly enough that the DE wasn’t going to get there even without the possible holding.

We can agree to disagree as a good official might not see the ball released quickly if he is looking in his zone and not following the ball, but that's a different discussion. Regardless OPI was missed on this. Score should not have counted.

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Just now, miner_35 said:

We can agree to disagree as a good official might not see the ball released quickly if he is looking in his zone and not seeing the ball, but that's a different discussion. Regardless OPI was missed on this. Score should not have counted.

The proper technique is to see the potential hold and then look at the QB. If the ball is gone, or he’s in his throwing motion, hold the flag. I know it’s a hard concept for non-officials to get their heads around. But that’s why we get paid the big bucks. 😆

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10 minutes ago, Bobref said:

The proper technique is to see the potential hold and then look at the QB. If the ball is gone, or he’s in his throwing motion, hold the flag. I know it’s a hard concept for non-officials to get their heads around. But that’s why we get paid the big bucks. 😆

Thats all fine and dandy, but me and my crew all looked and agree it should have been called. 

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47 minutes ago, miner_35 said:

Thats all fine and dandy, but me and my crew all looked and agree it should have been called. 

Then you probably wouldn’t want me to be the observer assigned to evaluate your crew. 😆

Just kidding. On a play like this it is unlikely I would downgrade anyone who called a holding penalty there, although it would be a topic of discussion in the postgame debrief. 

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7 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Then you probably wouldn’t want me to be the observer assigned to evaluate your crew. 😆

Just kidding. On a play like this it is unlikely I would downgrade anyone who called a holding penalty there, although it would be a topic of discussion in the postgame debrief. 

I do see what you are saying. Sometimes though that judgement is hard to make if you don't look up in time. Appreciate the input!

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5 hours ago, miner_35 said:

I do see what you are saying. Sometimes though that judgement is hard to make if you don't look up in time. Appreciate the input!

That is what separates average crews from really good or great crews. Many crews don't spend the time attending clinics and meetings where these things are discussed so they aren't aware of it. Some crews may hear it, but it's hard to implement. When I watch HS games online or TV I see this kind of thing called a hold way too often. I see even less restriction called a foul. It helps understand why we have coaches screaming for holding because they are used to past crews calling it. If your crew isn't aware of this philosophy I strongly suggest you find a mentor or try to attend the IFOA clinic in the summer.

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Bottom line, regardless of what the call should or should have not been..this was good karma for Lincoln. So many judgement calls over the years past 15 years that haven’t gone the Alices way...this one did.

Hopefully, this will turn into an opportunity they can capitalize on...and can build towards a very bright future with some talented youth on the way.

Edited by SEAL_63
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1 hour ago, SEAL_63 said:

Bottom line, regardless of what the call should or should have not been..this was good karma for Lincoln. So many judgement calls over the years past 15 years that haven’t gone the Alices way...this one did.

Hopefully, this will turn into an opportunity they can capitalize on...and can build towards a very bright future with some talented youth on the way.

You see the other angle on the TD pass?  Definitely no OPI. Defender initiated contact. Looks like he slipped and then brought the WR down with. 

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10 minutes ago, D3dream said:

You see the other angle on the TD pass?  Definitely no OPI. Defender initiated contact. Looks like he slipped and then brought the WR down with. 

What angle do you speak of?  The one I posted is pretty obvious the receiver was looking to hit the defensive back.  The receivers head never turned to look for the ball. 

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1 hour ago, JustRules said:

That is what separates average crews from really good or great crews. Many crews don't spend the time attending clinics and meetings where these things are discussed so they aren't aware of it. Some crews may hear it, but it's hard to implement. When I watch HS games online or TV I see this kind of thing called a hold way too often. I see even less restriction called a foul. It helps understand why we have coaches screaming for holding because they are used to past crews calling it. If your crew isn't aware of this philosophy I strongly suggest you find a mentor or try to attend the IFOA clinic in the summer.

See I look at a game in the same way. Trying to explain to a coach why I'm not throwing a flag on something that is behind the play or on the other side of the field that is not a safety issue is always fun. My whole point is that technically that could be deemed a hold, it was there.  The OPI or not OPI is dependent on the angle we see it from. Sullivan should not have let them drive almost 70 yards in 20 seconds. The best thing is that the player is fine. Good luck to the Alices on the rest of their season.

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1 hour ago, nk140 said:

What angle do you speak of?  The one I posted is pretty obvious the receiver was looking to hit the defensive back.  The receivers head never turned to look for the ball. 

I was 100% with you on an OPI. I argued and argued then somebody showed me a different angle and I changed my mind. Defender slips and as hes going down he takes the WR with. Get like 2-3 frames before this and you can see why no flag was thrown. 

Screenshot_20191027-014133_Facebook.jpg

Edited by D3dream
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That's just what I see. I'm seeing the defender slipping and then there's the collision.  Plus that's an awful nasty Twitter battle on there comment wise. I keep looking and looking at it. Someone with access to the official VL film also said the same (defender is going down first) but there's obvious bias there. 

Edited by D3dream
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