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DT

Time to fix the broken 6A tournament

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8 minutes ago, DT said:

No doubt.

However that does speak also to the relative weakness of the competition.

Its gotten so bad that Shelbyville is suspending their varsity program 

 

You asked, "where are they at without the extra 6000 yards and 100 touchdowns". They were a 60-4 program with a state title and and a runner-up before he ever got to New Pal. They were 3-7 the year before Ralph arrived. Where do YOU think they're at without Spegal? Maybe not the best football program in the state, but a very damn good one nonetheless who still could punch way above their weight. 

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10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You asked, "where are they at without the extra 6000 yards and 100 touchdowns". They were a 60-4 program with a state title and and a runner-up before he ever got to New Pal. They were 3-7 the year before Ralph arrived. Where do YOU think they're at without Spegal? Maybe not the best football program in the state, but a very damn good one nonetheless who still could punch way above their weight. 

This is not about New Pal

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So if the issue is the top echelon, i.e., 1-16 in 6A, what happens if you roll 17-32 into 5A and make 5A 48 teams?  It would mean an increase in numbers of roughly a bit under 500 students for the cap of a modified 5A.   Even accounting for the Success Factor additions, the current range of 5A, you are talking about a roughly 1,020.  If you look at the range of a new 5A, using the current 17-32 of 6A, you end up with a roughly 1,500 range of the new 5A.  More importantly, if you endeavor to make the new 5A spread the same as the current 5A spread, the new 5A spread would only lose four schools, not including the two from Success Factor ... the four dropped to 4A would be Seymore, Musnter, Mishawaka, and BNL.  Given that mix, you'd probably just leave those four in 5A and go with a 48-team new 5A class.

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13 hours ago, BTF said:

Dating back to 1978.

Carmel.....9 state titles. Ben Davis.....9 state titles. Warren Central.....9 state titles. Penn.....5 state titles. Those are 4 of the top 5 largest enrollment schools (mega-schools). 

Bloomington South, Castle,Center Grove,  Columbus East, & Snider (non mega-schools).....8 combined. 

And you think the topic of the thread is lunacy? You can seriously maintain that 6a doesn't need to be fixed?  Center Grove..........bla, bla, bla. Snider has an impressive track record too (although, according to you, have no chance against the New Pal, Cathedral, and Center Grove's of the world). By and large (taking Center Grove and Snider out of the equation), there is a problem. Not sure how one can be so blind not to see this. 

 

 

I think this has been covered, but splitting 6A into 2 groups based on today's IHSAA enrollment is a 561 population difference.  (16 vs 32)  What does that really solve?

You talk about Carmel, BD and WC dominance...but there are a number of high schools about 3000 that haven't had that type of success.  Not even close.  Not even in the same stratosphere.  Perhaps those are better programs because they also invest...in coaching, in facilities, in feeder systems.....perhaps its part of their culture.

We had 5 classes just until 2013.....

Quite frankly, a 4A high school (playing up in 5A) would have given any 6A team a run for its money.....may have just whipped them all.  The only reason I say "may" is I'm just not sure how a number of young men playing both ways for 5 straight games in the 6A south would have fared.  But NP was one of (if not the best) team I saw play all season.

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12 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I think this has been covered, but splitting 6A into 2 groups based on today's IHSAA enrollment is a 561 population difference.  (16 vs 32)  What does that really solve?

You talk about Carmel, BD and WC dominance...but there are a number of high schools about 3000 that haven't had that type of success.  Not even close.  Not even in the same stratosphere.  Perhaps those are better programs because they also invest...in coaching, in facilities, in feeder systems.....perhaps its part of their culture.

We had 5 classes just until 2013.....

Quite frankly, a 4A high school (playing up in 5A) would have given any 6A team a run for its money.....may have just whipped them all.  The only reason I say "may" is I'm just not sure how a number of young men playing both ways for 5 straight games in the 6A south would have fared.  But NP was one of (if not the best) team I saw play all season.

💯💯💯

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I always thought the best fix would have been to put bottom 16 in 1A, top 16 in 6A, divide the rest by 4.  The outliers are at the ends of the bell curve....the mega large and micro small.  Not much difference in between.

Combine with rolling 4 year SF cycle and you've got something.  

my 2 cents

Edited by US31

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2 minutes ago, US31 said:

I always thought the best fix would have been to put bottom 16 in 1A, top 16 in 6A, divide the rest by 4.  Combine with rolling 4 year SF cycle and you've got something.  

my 2 cents

That honestly isn't a terrible idea although I think you'd run into scheduling issues in playoffs. 1A and 6A would essentially have two weeks off before they played their first game assuming you keep the Thanksgiving Weekend Finals format.

Could see where the field for 2A-5A is eliminated by 20-30% at the conclusion of the regular season to get to 32 teams and adding a 10th regular season game. 1A and 6A get a bye like 5A and 6A do now and the schedule to the finals remains the same.

You may be on to something.

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A bye week after season and a bye week at "Semi State" weekend.  If that is a "problem" those two games could be played on a Friday or Saturday double header another weekend.  Friday double headers are common throughout the season.  Although I get the tradition of the Thanksgiving weekend.  

Edited by US31

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5 hours ago, US31 said:

I always thought the best fix would have been to put bottom 16 in 1A, top 16 in 6A, divide the rest by 4.  

For those who don't like the idea of a 7th champion, this sounds like a great idea. I think more and more of us can conclude the the largest 16 need to be separated from the rest. 

8 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

I think this has been covered, but splitting 6A into 2 groups based on today's IHSAA enrollment is a 561 population difference.  (16 vs 32)  What does that really solve?

What does it solve. It solves the problem of Zionsville having to play a school with a 3231 population difference. If I'm a smaller 6a football program, I'd rather go through Center Grove for the state championship than I would Carmel, Ben Davis, or Warren Central. At the end of the day, Center Grove still only has 2 championships compared to the 27 of the Big 3. 

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9 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

You talk about Carmel, BD and WC dominance...but there are a number of high schools about 3000 that haven't had that type of success.  Not even close.  Not even in the same stratosphere.  

Four of the largest five absolutely own the 6a division. You think those 32 state championships were won by accident? No, they were won by a combination of good coaching and enrollment. Would those same coaches have 32 state titles at smaller schools like Zionsville, Valparaiso, Chesterton, Warsaw, & Merrillville? Nope................case closed. 

 

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12 hours ago, Temptation said:

Maybe two northern 6A powers agree to skip the semi state and join forces to take on the southern winner?

Snider (1860) + Valpo (2054) = 3904. Now we have competitive balance. That would be one hell of a football team. 

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Back to my socioeconomic argument...

Center Grove is the exception and should be commended for what they have done but their socioeconomic profile (less than 20 percent free and reduced) allows them to compete with the BD’s, WC’s and Carmel’s of the world.

Pike was another example stated.  They are on the verge of a breakthrough and have the right guy.  They were a 2-point conversion away from beating a damn fine BD squad this fall.  They have better numbers than CG, but triple the free and reduced rate and not quite the numbers of BD/WC.

Giving the 17-32 schools a chance (not including CG here because future enrollment/success factor would have them in the 1-16 tournament) would make for some fabulous football contests.

Teams like Merrillville, Valpo and Warsaw were cited but let’s focus for a moment on a program like Arsenal Tech.  They have the numbers of Center Grove, yet the free and reduced rate of a BD/WC.  Asking them to compete in a tournament where they have a double whammy is an impossible task.  Do they make a state run in this new format?  Probably not.  But give those kids a fighting chance.

And before folks ask why I am choosing to focus on socioeconomics and free and reduced rates so much...because IT MATTERS...much more than enrollment in my opinion. 

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9 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Center Grove is the exception and should be commended for what they have done but their socioeconomic profile (less than 20 percent free and reduced) allows them to compete with the BD’s, WC’s and Carmel’s of the world.

You hit the nail on the head. Center Grove is an outstanding program and might be the best in the state pound for pound. Kudos to them and what they've accomplished. But they do have an advantage that many schools don't. Your socioeconomic argument valid.  

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20 hours ago, US31 said:

I always thought the best fix would have been to put bottom 16 in 1A, top 16 in 6A, divide the rest by 4.  The outliers are at the ends of the bell curve....the mega large and micro small.  Not much difference in between.

Combine with rolling 4 year SF cycle and you've got something.  

my 2 cents

Let me shred my own a idea a bit....if 6A was Big 16 and 1A was little 16, then the remaining 4 classes would be over 70 schools...wouldn't work with an all in format unless you added a weekend for 2A-4A.  As DT has suggested....most of this would really require a 7th class. 

My maths wuz bad....but Its fun to think about....🙃

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14 hours ago, BTF said:

Four of the largest five absolutely own the 6a division. You think those 32 state championships were won by accident? No, they were won by a combination of good coaching and enrollment. Would those same coaches have 32 state titles at smaller schools like Zionsville, Valparaiso, Chesterton, Warsaw, & Merrillville? Nope................case closed. 

 

Just explain why there are plenty of other schools with 3000 plus students that don't have greater success.  I'm not talking just state championships....Winning sectionals...or going deeper in the playoffs.  I get size plays a significant role...but I contend that the equation for success has other important variables.

 

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5 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Just explain why there are plenty of other schools with 3000 plus students that don't have greater success.  I'm not talking just state championships....Winning sectionals...or going deeper in the playoffs.  I get size plays a significant role...but I contend that the equation for success has other important variables.

 

Because many of these 3000+ schools are in the same sectionals

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14 hours ago, BTF said:

For those who don't like the idea of a 7th champion, this sounds like a great idea. I think more and more of us can conclude the the largest 16 need to be separated from the rest. 

What does it solve. It solves the problem of Zionsville having to play a school with a 3231 population difference. If I'm a smaller 6a football program, I'd rather go through Center Grove for the state championship than I would Carmel, Ben Davis, or Warren Central. At the end of the day, Center Grove still only has 2 championships compared to the 27 of the Big 3. 

you are only telling part of the story.......

CG has made it to the state finals 5 times.  2 of their 3 losses in the finals were by a total of 6 points to Carmel....one being in OT when the Trojans were favored.  How many semi-state has CG played in?  I don't think a program has to always win it all to be considered a success.  

If I follow your line of logic, there should be a title for the "big 3" and then let everyone else play for another title.  What you are failing to mention is the number of 3000+ student schools that are not winning state championships...or even coming close.  So if I separate the 16 from the rest, the majority of the 16 still won't be competitive in your eyes.  Correct?

1 minute ago, US31 said:

Because many of these 3000+ schools are in the same sectionals

Some absolutely are....but if the differential in students in smaller and its all about size, shouldn't we expect to see them being more successful over time?

I'm just trying to follow the logic

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2 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

you are only telling part of the story.......

CG has made it to the state finals 5 times.  2 of their 3 losses in the finals were by a total of 6 points to Carmel....one being in OT when the Trojans were favored.  How many semi-state has CG played in?  I don't think a program has to always win it all to be considered a success.  

If I follow your line of logic, there should be a title for the "big 3" and then let everyone else play for another title.  What you are failing to mention is the number of 3000+ student schools that are not winning state championships...or even coming close.  So if I separate the 16 from the rest, the majority of the 16 still won't be competitive in your eyes.  Correct?

You’re only READING part of the story...

 

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3 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

 

Some absolutely are....but if the differential in students in smaller and its all about size, shouldn't we expect to see them being more successful over time?

I'm just trying to follow the logic

I think the "logic" is the entire point of this thread....you do see variety.  EXCEPT for the sectionals occupied by the big 3 MIC schools....Carmel, BD, WC.

Once you get down to the Penn's and Lake Central's of the world (3500 on down,) the size discrepancy is easier to overcome with a good class, good coaching, favorable demographics, solid program, etc.

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4 minutes ago, Temptation said:

You’re only READING part of the story...

 

Yea...because I haven't lived in a 6A world....didn't live in a 5A world when the school size differential was even greater prior to 2013.  I am defend myself pretty well when it comes to the Coach Moore tenure at CG.

Again, not arguing size has no impact.....just don't align it is the only variable in the success equation.  

To each his own on this debate.

 

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18 minutes ago, US31 said:

I think the "logic" is the entire point of this thread....you do see variety.  EXCEPT for the sectionals occupied by the big 3 MIC schools....Carmel, BD, WC.

Once you get down to the Penn's and Lake Central's of the world (3500 on down,) the size discrepancy is easier to overcome with a good class, good coaching, favorable demographics, solid program, etc.

I guess....I went to the John Harrell site and looked up BD's history from 2005-2019.  They won 7 sectionals out of that 15 year span.  They lost more sectionals than they won.  BD is the 2nd largest school in the state.

I agree more with your second sentence...but would have to thrown out North Central and Fishers....not sure I would throw them out because size with them doesn't equal dominance.  Again, would logic tells us based on the arguments supporting another class of football that we should simply break off Carmel, WC and BD?

Edited by TrojanDad

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10 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Yea...because I haven't lived in a 6A world....didn't live in a 5A world when the school size differential was even greater prior to 2013.  I am defend myself pretty well when it comes to the Coach Moore tenure at CG.

Again, not arguing size has no impact.....just don't align it is the only variable in the success equation.  

To each his own on this debate.

 

Which is spoken about above.  Socioeconomics play a bigger role than size.

And there is nothing to defend.  Look up my posting history.  I’m am the first to give Moore/CG the utmost respect and credit when it comes to their successes.

You keep doing you...

Edited by Temptation

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Just now, Temptation said:

Which is spoken about above.  Socioeconomics play a bigger role than size.

You keep doing you...

LOL...you mean similar socieoeconomics that one would experience in Avon, Brownsburg, Fishers, ZVille, etc.

Again, not arguing socieoeconomics isn't part of the equation....you are actually making my case a little more.  So you agree its not just about size?  

You are not proposing we separate 6A by socieoeconomic factors are you?

 

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4 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I guess....I went to the John Harrell site and looked up BD's history from 2005-2019.  They won 7 sectionals out of that 15 year span.  They lost more sectionals than they won.  BD is the 2nd largest school in the state.

I agree more with your second sentence...but would have to thrown out North Central and Fishers....not sure I would throw them out because size with them doesn't equal dominance.  Again, would logic tells us based on the arguments supporting another class of football that we should simply break off Carmel, WC and BD?

Winning half your sectionals isn't being dominant....(honest question)?  Keep in mind on a few occasions they were in the same sectional as WC.  I'd bet many of the other losses were to Avon or Pike...both schools over 3000.

Fishers shares a sectional with Carmel most years....there is your answer for that.

North Central shares a sectional with at least 1 of the Big 3 every year....there is your answer for that.

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2 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

LOL...you mean similar socieoeconomics that one would experience in Avon, Brownsburg, Fishers, ZVille, etc.

Again, not arguing socieoeconomics isn't part of the equation....you are actually making my case a little more.  So you agree its not just about size?  

You are not proposing we separate 6A by socieoeconomic factors are you?

 

Yes, similar to those areas you mentioned which is where the CG program gets credit.  I stated that CG is the exception and has laid the blueprint for two decades now.  

Separating by enrollment (1-16/17-32) gives those 17-32 schools a realistic shot as most of them are not in the same socioeconomic situation as CG.  You can’t fight the enrollment battle AND the socioeconomic battle as it is too steep of a hill to climb...and the gap is growing.

This reading previous posts thing is really hard for you, huh?

3 minutes ago, US31 said:

Winning half your sectionals isn't being dominant....(honest question)?  Keep in mind on a few occasions they were in the same sectional as WC.  I'd bet many of the other losses were to Avon or Pike...both schools over 3000.

Fishers shares a sectional with Carmel most years....there is your answer for that.

North Central shares a sectional with at least 1 of the Big 3 every year....there is your answer for that.

And North Central (as I mentioned elsewhere) has been a sleeping giant for some time now.  They finally have pushed the basketball program aside and have the right guy leading their football program.

They have WC’s numbers but LN’s free and reduced rate.  They are here to stay.

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