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MIC Powershift Away From BD/WC Gaining Speed


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2 hours ago, Temptation said:

The limitations placed upon them due to their conference affiliation is similar.  Yes, both dominate their conferences

New Pal is entering year 8 of the Ralph era so it’s more than just one good crop of kids (not insinuating that’s what you are saying). Comprehensive program from top to bottom

You've failed to specify how exactly Penn’s membership in the NIC is holding them back and will continue to do so...Penn is unable to "Sharpen the Saw" due to porous conference competition.  That catches up with them when they venture out of conference and into post season play.

They have beefed up their non conference schedule (just like New Pal)...But theyve shown little improvement

Sidebar question:  What is the reasoning that New Pal has gone 88-4 in the last 7 years and been so dominant?Bigger, stronger, faster players and a top notch coaching staff.

 

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1 hour ago, DT said:

 

So, in summary.

1.  Penn does not have a “comprehensive program” from top to bottom?

2.  Penn is slower, weaker and has a second rate coaching staff compared to New Pal?

3.  New Pal can “sharpen the saw” and overcome a weak conference schedule due to the two above factors?

Did I pass?

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On 4/24/2020 at 12:12 PM, Temptation said:

Sidebar question:  What is the reasoning that New Pal has gone 88-4 in the last 7 years and been so dominant?

Plain and simple.............Kyle Ralph. Let's give credit where credit is due. Coach Ralph has 4 losses in seven seasons as NP's head coach. The seven years prior to him they had 27 losses. This is not a community thing, this is a Kyle Ralph thing. He sets a new bar............and it's a high one.

One thing that separates Ralph from his high level competition is his willingness to put his best athletes on both sides of the ball...........something most 6a and 5a schools do not. It's the only way New Pal can compete with larger schools and Ralph knows that. What's more impressive is how those kids manage to play four quarters without their opponents wearing them down. 

I've always felt like Penn's competition in the NIC was a detriment to their post season success. And I don't think it's fair to compare Penn to New Pal. Kyle Ralph is the BEST coach in high school football. Let's pick another program to compare them too...............Center Grove? The difference between the two is level of competition.........I sincerely believe that. MIC vs NIC...........huge difference. Bring me another program like New Pal, and I'll buy your argument. New Pal is an isolated example. 

Case in point: Geesman is one of the best high school football coaches to grace the sidelines. His 5 state championships speak for themselves. But there were many seasons where they would go undefeated and then run into Snider..........that was kind of the joke in South Bend for several years. Picking on the NIC, then Snider comes along. It was like hitting a brick wall................a well coached team with a talent level they hadn't faced all season long.  The SAC back then prepared Snider better than the NIC prepared Penn. Although Geesman managed 5 state titles, I'm pretty sure he had a losing record against the Panthers. 

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49 minutes ago, BTF said:

Plain and simple.............Kyle Ralph. Let's give credit where credit is due. Coach Ralph has 4 losses in seven seasons as NP's head coach. The seven years prior to him they had 27 losses. This is not a community thing, this is a Kyle Ralph thing. He sets a new bar............and it's a high one.

One thing that separates Ralph from his high level competition is his willingness to put his best athletes on both sides of the ball...........something most 6a and 5a schools do not. It's the only way New Pal can compete with larger schools and Ralph knows that. What's more impressive is how those kids manage to play four quarters without their opponents wearing them down. 

I've always felt like Penn's competition in the NIC was a detriment to their post season success. And I don't think it's fair to compare Penn to New Pal. Kyle Ralph is the BEST coach in high school football. Let's pick another program to compare them too...............Center Grove? The difference between the two is level of competition.........I sincerely believe that. MIC vs NIC...........huge difference. Bring me another program like New Pal, and I'll buy your argument. New Pal is an isolated example. 

Case in point: Geesman is one of the best high school football coaches to grace the sidelines. His 5 state championships speak for themselves. But there were many seasons where they would go undefeated and then run into Snider..........that was kind of the joke in South Bend for several years. Picking on the NIC, then Snider comes along. It was like hitting a brick wall................a well coached team with a talent level they hadn't faced all season long.  The SAC back then prepared Snider better than the NIC prepared Penn. Although Geesman managed 5 state titles, I'm pretty sure he had a losing record against the Panthers. 

GREAT points, you and I are really starting to agree way too much on here, lol.

The only other example I can think that comes close is West Lafayette.  The dynamics of the Hoosier Conference have changed, but West Lafayette is 40-4 over the last decade against current members.  Though they only have ONE state title during that time span, I don't feel that their losses were necessarily due to the fact that their conference did not prepare them for the post season.  

In 2019, they lost to the eventual state champions Bishop Chatard.

In 2018, they won the state title.

In 2017, they lost to the eventual state runners up Brebeuf Jesuit.

In 2016, they lost to the eventual state champions Fort Wayne Concordia.

In 2015, they lost to IN the state championship game to Bishop Chatard.

In 2014, they lost to a Yorktown team that lost to For Wayne Luers in the Regional.

In 2013, they lost to the eventual state champions Andrean.

In 2012, they lost to the eventual state runners up Hamilton Heights.

In 2011, they lost to the eventual state runners up South Bend St. Joseph.

In 2010, they lost to a Leo team that lost to South Bend St. Joseph in the Regional.

As you can see, more often than not West Lafayette was beaten by a team (SEVEN times) that eventually made it to Indianapolis, THREE of which ended up hoisting the championship trophy.

Far from an exact parallel to New Palestine or Snider, but nonetheless a team that has dominated its conference foes (current format) yet has had PLENTY (30-9 over the last 10 years) of success in the postseason.

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East Central, 51-3 over the last decade against current Eastern Indiana Athletic Conference member schools has also had tons of postseason success.

26-10 in the postseason since 2010 with one state title, two semi-state titles, three regional titles, and five sectional titles.

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Perhaps, the BEST example is Columbus East.  An amazing 69-0 since 2010 against Hoosier Hills Conference teams.  35-9 in the tournament with a state title, three semi-state titles, seven regional titles, and seven sectional titles.  Ran into a team that made it to Indianapolis a staggering NINE times.  NO WAY one can say they simply had been held back by their conference affiliation.

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Another example would be Pioneer.  Sure this is at the small school level and they had a group for the ages go through, but 48-2 against current Hoosier North Conference schools since 2010.

Resulted in a post season record of 32-8 with two state titles, four semi-state titles, and six sectional titles.

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Now on the other side, a team that I do believe enters the postseason as a paper tiger and inflated record due to conference affiliation is Brownstown Central.  The Braves always seem to dominate the Mid-Southern Conference and it has yet to translate into anything beyond a regional title in the past decade.

Brownstown is just 19-10 in the tournament over the last 10 years after posting a 68-3 mark against current members of the MSC.

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On 4/23/2020 at 9:20 PM, DT said:

BD lost its swagger when it dropped the Penn series.  Both programs have been diminished since the series ended

 

Ben Davis and Penn games ended...both have won a total of

11 sectionals (bd 5)

10 regionals (bd 4)

5 semi state (bd 2)

2 state titles (bd 2)

 

Thats diminishing? Ok lol. 

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47 minutes ago, Ultimate Warrior said:

Ben Davis and Penn games ended...both have won a total of

11 sectionals (bd 5)

10 regionals (bd 4)

5 semi state (bd 2)

2 state titles (bd 2)

 

Thats diminishing? Ok lol. 

As I have said numerous times, athletics are very cyclical.  A “down” season is allowed every now and then.  Ben Davis and Penn will continue to be forces to be reckoned with no matter how full their stadium is nor if their conferences best days may (or may not) be behind them.

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55 minutes ago, Gipper said:

As I have said numerous times, athletics are very cyclical.  A “down” season is allowed every now and then.  Ben Davis and Penn will continue to be forces to be reckoned with no matter how full their stadium is nor if their conferences best days may (or may not) be behind them.

Agree but maybe on “how much” to be reckoned with.

BD will always have enrollment on their side.

Penn will always have SES, geography and enrollment on their side.

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1 hour ago, Temptation said:

Agree but maybe on “how much” to be reckoned with.

BD will always have enrollment on their side.

Penn will always have SES, geography and enrollment on their side.

Fair point.  I just think these two schools will continue to be tough outs, swagger or not...

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4 hours ago, Temptation said:

GREAT points, you and I are really starting to agree way too much on here, lol.

The only other example I can think that comes close is West Lafayette.  

It's ok to agree........................once in awhile, lol.

Good example. WL has run into some absolute brutal opponents. Jesuit, Yorktown, and Leo could have easily gone their way.

Kudos on the Columbus East example as well................I always felt they were the Snider of the south (well, since 2004). 

Pioneer? I'm not an expert on 1a football, but I thought that general area was loaded with some of the states best teams. Or at least as good as any other area?

I still think strength of schedule is a major factor. Let's keep an eye on Homestead as an example. When they were in the NHC, they had several undefeated seasons come to an end against Snider..........most of those games brutal. Now after playing five seasons in the SAC, they finally got there conference title. Is their program benefiting from the likes of playing teams like Snider, Dwenger, Luers, and Concordia? Or was last year, and possibly this year, a result of a couple of players who wont be around for ever? According to your socioeconomic theory, the Homestead's and Carroll's of the world should be poised for future success. But I also think some of that success should be attributed to paying SAC competition versus NHC competition. 

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1 hour ago, Gipper said:

Fair point.  I just think these two schools will continue to be tough outs, swagger or not...

“Swagger” is such a hilarious variable to try to enter into this conversation in the first place...

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5 hours ago, Temptation said:

GREAT points, you and I are really starting to agree way too much on here, lol.

The only other example I can think that comes close is West Lafayette.  The dynamics of the Hoosier Conference have changed, but West Lafayette is 40-4 over the last decade against current members.  Though they only have ONE state title during that time span, I don't feel that their losses were necessarily due to the fact that their conference did not prepare them for the post season.  

In 2019, they lost to the eventual state champions Bishop Chatard.

In 2018, they won the state title.

In 2017, they lost to the eventual state runners up Brebeuf Jesuit.

In 2016, they lost to the eventual state champions Fort Wayne Concordia.

In 2015, they lost to IN the state championship game to Bishop Chatard.

In 2014, they lost to a Yorktown team that lost to For Wayne Luers in the Regional.

In 2013, they lost to the eventual state champions Andrean.

In 2012, they lost to the eventual state runners up Hamilton Heights.

In 2011, they lost to the eventual state runners up South Bend St. Joseph.

In 2010, they lost to a Leo team that lost to South Bend St. Joseph in the Regional.

As you can see, more often than not West Lafayette was beaten by a team (SEVEN times) that eventually made it to Indianapolis, THREE of which ended up hoisting the championship trophy.

Far from an exact parallel to New Palestine or Snider, but nonetheless a team that has dominated its conference foes (current format) yet has had PLENTY (30-9 over the last 10 years) of success in the postseason.

Speaking of the River Rats,  here is a blast from the past:

 

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18 hours ago, Ultimate Warrior said:

Ben Davis and Penn games ended...both have won a total of

11 sectionals (bd 5)

10 regionals (bd 4)

5 semi state (bd 2)

2 state titles (bd 2)

 

Thats diminishing? Ok lol. 

THANK YOU!

DT is nothing more than a keyboard warrior and this board would be better off without him.  I’ve never seen someone criticize programs/coaches/young adults the way he does.  He needs to go.

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2 hours ago, HoosierFB_JG said:

THANK YOU!

DT is nothing more than a keyboard warrior and this board would be better off without him.  I’ve never seen someone criticize programs/coaches/young adults the way he does.  He needs to go.

Call for a referendum and vote me off the board.  Its your right.  

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5 hours ago, HoosierFB_JG said:

THANK YOU!

DT is nothing more than a keyboard warrior and this board would be better off without him.  I’ve never seen someone criticize programs/coaches/young adults the way he does.  He needs to go.

The opposite is true actually.  You guys can’t get enough of him and drive his ratings with every comment...and then try to act offended.

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1 hour ago, Gipper said:

In a weird way, he probably craves the attention.  I put career accomplishments and a happy family way above this, but one that’s just me...

Yet you reply to every one of his threads like clock work.

Must have one hell of a wi-if connection up in that ivory tower of yours...

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25 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Yet you reply to every one of his threads like clock work.

Must have one hell of a wi-if connection up in that ivory tower of yours...

It is pretty nice, I do dig it, but I’ve come to the realization that many posters here are akin to annoying co-workers.  I’d rather talk about things that interest me.  I have no need to discuss things we ultimately have no control over.

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33 minutes ago, Gipper said:

It is pretty nice, I do dig it, but I’ve come to the realization that many posters here are akin to annoying co-workers.  I’d rather talk about things that interest me.  I have no need to discuss things we ultimately have no control over.

Then why are you here?  What in the hell do you have control of in this forum?

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