Stat Question

[from_the_sidelines007]

Ok.

So I have this disagreement with a buddy of mine about a football stat question.

 

Here is the scenario:

 

Team A has the ball first and 10 at the 12 yard line.

Team A scores a touchdown on the next play.

 

One of us says Team A gets a first down on the play because they took the ball past the 10 yards necessary to get the first down.

The other one of us says no first down because it is a touchdown and the next play was not played due to the touchdown.

 

Any stat buffs out there that can clear this one up?

 

Thanks!

 

as always, the game is better

from_the_sidelines007

 

 

[Guest]

Not a first down

 

[dazed and confused]

6 minutes ago, from_the_sidelines007 said:

Ok.

So I have this disagreement with a buddy of mine about a football stat question.

 

Here is the scenario:

 

Team A has the ball first and 10 at the 12 yard line.

Team A scores a touchdown on the next play.

 

One of us says Team A gets a first down on the play because they took the ball past the 10 yards necessary to get the first down.

The other one of us says no first down because it is a touchdown and the next play was not played due to the touchdown.

 

Any stat buffs out there that can clear this one up?

 

Thanks!

 

as always, the game is better

from_the_sidelines007

 

 

 

 

 

im confused... was that a 12 or 88 yard play ?

[from_the_sidelines007]

1 minute ago, dazed and confused said:

 

 

 

im confused... was that a 12 or 88 yard play ?

In this case it was 12 yards from the end zone.

However, it would not matter because the distance would cover more than 10 yards - either from the 12 or from the 12 on the opposite side of 50 or 88 yards away.

But good question.

 

as always, the game is better

from_the_sidelines007

[dazed and confused]

4 minutes ago, from_the_sidelines007 said:

In this case it was 12 yards from the end zone.

However, it would not matter because the distance would cover more than 10 yards - either from the 12 or from the 12 on the opposite side of 50 or 88 yards away.

But good question.

 

as always, the game is better

from_the_sidelines007

im still confused... 12 yards from which end zone ?

[from_the_sidelines007]

 

dazed and confused . . . . Here is a drawing.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

|     |G     |5     1|0 11 12 13 14 1|5     2|0    2|5

|     |                            @ Ball Is At The 12 Yard Line

|     |                              < - Going Toward the closest end zone to the left

|.    |                             12 yards from the end zone

|.    |                             You are a prankster, I can tell

|.    |G                           Nice Work!

- - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

 

as always, the game is better

from_the_sidelines007

 

 

[dazed and confused]

26 minutes ago, Brettlow said:

Not a first down

 

for sure ?   I thought it was.... on the 88 yard senario mentioned above, when said player crosses the 22 yard line after gaining 10 yds I always think, good he got the 1st down, and any extra yds gained including the TD is a bonus....

in the 12 yard senario mentioned above, you have less time to think....

 

 

3 minutes ago, from_the_sidelines007 said:

 

dazed and confused . . . . Here is a drawing.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

|     |G     |5     1|0 11 12 13 14 1|5     2|0    2|5

|     |                            @ Ball Is At The 12 Yard Line

|     |                              < - Going Toward the closest end zone to the left

|.    |                             12 yards from the end zone

|.    |                             You are a prankster, I can tell

|.    |G                           Nice Work!

- - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

 

as always, the game is better

from_the_sidelines007

 

 

Touche'

[oldtimeqb]

I think it would be a first down. I thought a stat guy told me once Touchdowns are first downs.

If you were really curious you could probably look up the stats from the state finals on IHSAA.org. They have the play by play and stat sheets 

[TigerFan20]

Yea..I can see it as a first down. If it was like a 3rd and goal, then I don’t really know

[Guest]

not according to the stat programs i've been using for the last 15 years

 

[sr1]

This is a quote from the NFHS stats manual from 2003.

SECTION 3:

First Downs

Provision 1: Any time the ball is advanced beyond the line-to-gain (forward stake) during a scrimmage play, a first down is recorded, provided a) the forward stake is in the field of play (between the goal lines), or b) a live-ball penalty during the play does not move the ball back behind the forward stake. This includes a touchdown play.

[Guest]

I read the manual and you are correct, however I just ran the same simulation on three statistical programs with the NFHS rules mode selected and none of them record a first down on a scoring play...I will definitely admit I was wrong...Just going by the DakStats program I've been using

[foxbat]

If I recall correctly, it doesn't count as a first down.  Now realize that I'm basing this on old rules about first downs and penetrations when I used to play back in the 70s.  Tie games were determined by first downs and then penetrations ... no extra time or sudden death.  In the game, we were down 6 points with roughly 45 seconds to go and were on our own 35 having just received the kickoff.  We tried a trick play and ended up with our receiver behind the safety.  He caught the ball with a three-step lead on the safety, but off-balance.  He stumbled forward about 10-15 yards as the defender caught him and brought him down on the 18.  On the next play, we ran the exact same type of play, but this time kept it around end for the score.  We missed the conversion and the game ended in a tie.  We won the game though.  We were tied on first downs for the game and ahead by one on penetrations.  The ref told our coach that, while it didn't seem like it at the time, that back stumbling and going down instead of running in for the endzone on that long pass play proved to be the difference as it registered both a first down and a penetration of the 20-yard line, but if he hadn't been tackled, we wouldn't have had the first down or the penetration; just the TD.

I don't know if that's something that's changed over time as I've not heard anyone talk about penetrations in a REALLY long time as having a direct impact on the game.  I suspect they don't have direct impact anymore, nor do first downs, since we now play overtimes/sudden death.

[Plymouthfan91]

This is from the NFHS stats manual.  The last line in the definition of a first down says "This includes a touchdown play."  So I believe on any touchdown that is scored via passing/rushing from scrimmage should also result in a first down for the offense.

[WCGrad92]

Digital Scout counts Touchdowns as 1st Downs as they should be counted.

[from_the_sidelines007]

Thanks everyone for your responses!

For the record, my disagreement was with a retired football coach.  And, no disrespect, maybe back in the day maybe that was not a first down.

I was the one that indicated it was a first down on the touchdown because the first down was earned when the ball went past the down marker.

He vowed that due to the fact that the team that scored did run another play, there was no first down.

We both obviously stood our ground.

Live and learn!

 

Thanks Again!

 

as always, the game is better

from_the_sidelines007