Harbaugh’s Hands Caught in Cookie Jar

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

Eh, likely.  I will concede that point but I am not going to sit here and carry water for the NCAA...if Tennessee and others did not get "blood" as @Footballking16 refers to it, I think the spineless NCAA will fold here.  Tom Mars doesn't lose often.

Also, do we live in a world where fast food bags full of cash being handed out (as long as you are honest about it) gets a slap on the wrist whereas "lying" about contact during a COVID dead period in which rules were changing by the minute (Harbaugh has yet to concede that he lied by the way) gets throttled?

C'mon.  I am not the only one that has my head in the sand here.

Tennessee ridded the problem and fired Pruitt and all the players who accepted cash are no longer at the university. I'm not for punishing players/coaches for a prior regimes problem. 

I'm just saying, if there's zero evidence Harbaugh knew about the alleged violations why did he accept the 4 game punishment to begin with? That doesn't sound like an innocent bystander in all this. And I would highly doubt the Infractions Committee would pull a deal off the table and continue to investigate the matter if they weren't looking to hand out a harsher punishment. Just the optics I see here. 

[Bash Riprock]

2 minutes ago, temptation said:

Eh, likely.  I will concede that point but I am not going to sit here and carry water for the NCAA...if Tennessee and others did not get "blood" as @Footballking16 refers to it, I think the spineless NCAA will fold here.  Tom Mars doesn't lose often.

Also, do we live in a world where fast food bags full of cash being handed out (as long as you are honest about it) gets a slap on the wrist whereas "lying" about contact during a COVID dead period in which rules were changing by the minute (Harbaugh has yet to concede that he lied by the way) gets throttled?

C'mon.  I am not the only one that has my head in the sand here.

Guessing you aren't much different than the majority of Michigan fans.

You know that the old " 2 wrongs don't equal a right" saying.  No one is justifying Tennessee (other than Vols fans perhaps) and no one is ever saying the NCAA is consistent.  NCAA has a bad record when it comes to consistency and prioritization.  (my opinion)  But as stated on this forum before, coaches lying and/or perceived interfering with an investigation does not seem to end well for the coach.  

From SI's Pat Forde over the weekend.....

https://www.si.com/.amp/college/2023/08/13/ncaa-issues-rare-statement-regarding-ongoing-jim-harbaugh-case

 

[temptation]

49 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Tennessee ridded the problem and fired Pruitt and all the players who accepted cash are no longer at the university. I'm not for punishing players/coaches for a prior regimes problem. 

I'm just saying, if there's zero evidence Harbaugh knew about the alleged violations why did he accept the 4 game punishment to begin with? That doesn't sound like an innocent bystander in all this. And I would highly doubt the Infractions Committee would pull a deal off the table and continue to investigate the matter if they weren't looking to hand out a harsher punishment. Just the optics I see here. 

Tennessee didn't even LAND many of those who they supposedly gave out bags of cash to...so what does that tell you about what goes on in the southeast?  They LOST a bidding war and because they admitted it, got a slap on the wrist.  Pruitt's on-field performance also played a role in his firing too so lets not pretend that was some sort of honorable separation.

I'll admit my bias but Harbaugh has been squeaky clean every where he has coached.  The "dead period" logistics were changing on the fly during Covid and many families paid their own way to go to Ann Arbor lead by the family of the current starting quarterback.  Michigan/Harbaugh were not HOSTING any official recruiting visits as that was the procedure/rule.  

I'll go ahead and enjoy the 2023 season as it has the potential to be the best in program history and I will worry about any future nonsense next spring.

(Side note, the culture at Michigan is better than it has ever been and Jim has said that he has 10 future head coaches currently on staff...so in the event of any potential lengthy suspension, the Wolverines would be in good hands.)

 

56 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Guessing you aren't much different than the majority of Michigan fans.

You know that the old " 2 wrongs don't equal a right" saying.  No one is justifying Tennessee (other than Vols fans perhaps) and no one is ever saying the NCAA is consistent.  NCAA has a bad record when it comes to consistency and prioritization.  (my opinion)  But as stated on this forum before, coaches lying and/or perceived interfering with an investigation does not seem to end well for the coach.  

From SI's Pat Forde over the weekend.....

https://www.si.com/.amp/college/2023/08/13/ncaa-issues-rare-statement-regarding-ongoing-jim-harbaugh-case

 

I think I know the "majority" you are speaking of but it is still pretty dangerous to paint with a broad brush.  I see my program's flaws and actually spar with fellow Wolverine fans frequently.

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Tennessee didn't even LAND many of those who they supposedly gave out bags of cash to...so what does that tell you about what goes on in the southeast?  They LOST a bidding war and because they admitted it, got a slap on the wrist.  Pruitt's on-field performance also played a role in his firing too so lets not pretend that was some sort of honorable separation.

I'll admit my bias but Harbaugh has been squeaky clean every where he has coached.  The "dead period" logistics were changing on the fly during Covid and many families paid their own way to go to Ann Arbor lead by the family of the current starting quarterback.  Michigan/Harbaugh were not HOSTING any official recruiting visits as that was the procedure/rule.  

I'll go ahead and enjoy the 2023 season as it has the potential to be the best in program history and I will worry about any future nonsense next spring.

(Side note, the culture at Michigan is better than it has ever been and Jim has said that he has 10 future head coaches currently on staff...so in the event of any potential lengthy suspension, the Wolverines would be in good hands.)

 

The NCAA isn't going after Harbaugh for the petty Level 2 stuff....or a cheeseburger, they're going after him for lying/misleading the NCAA during an ongoing investigation, a Level 1 infraction. Agree with your initial premise that the original charges don't compare to what happened at Tennessee, which just begs the question, "Why lie about it in the first place"? And if he didn't really lie or obstruct an investigation, why accept the four game punishment in the first place?

Harbaugh isn't acting like someone who is completely innocent here. 

[temptation]

10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

The NCAA isn't going after Harbaugh for the petty Level 2 stuff....or a cheeseburger, they're going after him for lying/misleading the NCAA during an ongoing investigation, a Level 1 infraction. Agree with your initial premise that the original charges don't compare to what happened at Tennessee, which just begs the question, "Why lie about it in the first place"? And if he didn't really lie or obstruct an investigation, why accept the four game punishment in the first place?

Harbaugh isn't acting like someone who is completely innocent here. 

Do we have proof he is lying or are you just going with the mainstream media's take?  The rules surrounding official visits/dead periods/etc. during Covid were extremely fuzzy and ever changing.  Once again, he (nor Michigan) hosted any official visits during that period per campus rules and those families were in town on their own dime.  That HAS to play a factor here.

I'm torn on whether or not he is actually lying.  He may admit to the violation in hindsight but Jim is a quirky dude.  I am not even sure he knew AT THE TIME he was committing a violation.

Knowing what he knows now, maybe he admitted to the suspension after the fact that he committed a violation was revealed.

He is standing on principle here and playing the whataboutism game (which is dangerous as I play it too) and as you mentioned it may cost him.  

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by temptation

[Bobref]

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

Do we have proof he is lying or are you just going with the mainstream media's take?  The rules surrounding official visits/dead periods/etc. during Covid were extremely fuzzy and ever changing.

I think this an important point that is being overlooked. “Lying” is an intentional act. Under the circumstances it is certainly possible that Khaki Boy said something that wasn’t actually true, but which he believed to be true. That’s not “lying.” So, it is perfectly conceivable that he has good grounds for refusing to cop to “lying,” even though there is incontrovertible evidence that what he said was inaccurate.

[Footballking16]

24 minutes ago, temptation said:

Do we have proof he is lying or are you just going with the mainstream media's take?  The rules surrounding official visits/dead periods/etc. during Covid were extremely fuzzy and ever changing.  Once again, he (nor Michigan) hosted any official visits during that period per campus rules and those families were in town on their own dime.  That HAS to play a factor here.

I'm torn on whether or not he is actually lying.  He may admit to the violation in hindsight but Jim is a quirky dude.  I am not even sure he knew AT THE TIME he was committing a violation.

Knowing what he knows now, maybe he admitted to the suspension after the fact that he committed a violation was revealed.

He is standing on principle here and playing the whataboutism game (which is dangerous as I play it too) and as you mentioned it may cost him.  

 

I’m just going off optics here.

“Innocent” man doesn’t take a plea unless it’s a really good deal (which in this case it is) because he is in fact not “innocent”.

Nor

Does the NCAA IC pull a deal off the table after it has been negotiated unless there’s hard evidence that the punishment is too lenient.

[temptation]

18 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I’m just going off optics here.

“Innocent” man doesn’t take a plea unless it’s a really good deal (which in this case it is) because he is in fact not “innocent”.

Nor

Does the NCAA IC pull a deal off the table after it has been negotiated unless there’s hard evidence that the punishment is too lenient.

Nor option 3...the NCAA has an agenda with Harbaugh going all the way back to satellite camps and thinks they've finally "got him" and wants to make an example out of him.

The university (not Jim) took the plea.

36 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I think this an important point that is being overlooked. “Lying” is an intentional act. Under the circumstances it is certainly possible that Khaki Boy said something that wasn’t actually true, but which he believed to be true. That’s not “lying.” So, it is perfectly conceivable that he has good grounds for refusing to cop to “lying,” even though there is incontrovertible evidence that what he said was inaccurate.

100%

[Footballking16]

12 minutes ago, temptation said:

Nor option 3...the NCAA has an agenda with Harbaugh going all the way back to satellite camps and thinks they've finally "got him" and wants to make an example out of him.

The university (not Jim) took the plea.

Highly doubt this is a Jim vs the world type deal. This whole thing is likely resolved by now with a little honesty and cooperation that would have resulted in a probationary status and a possible fine. 

[temptation]

25 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Highly doubt this is a Jim vs the world type deal. This whole thing is likely resolved by now with a little honesty and cooperation that would have resulted in a probationary status and a possible fine. 

Let's allow it to play out.

[temptation]

Let’s also not ignore the PR battle that is taking place.  Folks can speculate all day and the NCAA (in what can only be perceived as hypocrisy) has taken advantage of this by making public statements whereas Harbaugh is PROHIBITED from speaking on the topic or telling his side of the story.

 

[temptation]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:11 PM, Footballking16 said:

Highly doubt this is a Jim vs the world type deal. This whole thing is likely resolved by now with a little honesty and cooperation that would have resulted in a probationary status and a possible fine. 

Sounds like Harbaugh may have read your post and come to his senses…

[Footballking16]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Sounds like Harbaugh may have read your post and come to his senses…

Not sure if Michigan is playing checkers or chess here.

Getting out in front of the NCAA with self-imposed penalties is always recommended. Self-imposing a punishment less severe than what the Infraction Committee already took off the table seems like the boldest of moves. 

Will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Footballking16

[temptation]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Not sure if Michigan is playing checkers or chess here.

Getting out in front of the NCAA with self-imposed penalties is always recommended. Self-imposing a punishment less severe than what the Infraction Committee already took off the table seems like the boldest of moves. 

Will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

I think I agree.  Beginning to wonder if they just wanted to control the narrative while missing zero conference games…

Even if the NCAA is hell bent on 4, they open with Fresno State in 2024 before hosting TEXAS in week 2.

[Bobref]

13 hours ago, temptation said:

Even if the NCAA is hell bent on 4, they open with Fresno State in 2024 before hosting TEXAS in week 2.

This explains the “self-imposed” penalty. The hope is that if (when) the infractions committee hears the case, rejects Harbaugh’s “defense,” and imposes a 4 game suspension, he’ll get credit for “time served,” and still be ready for Texas in Week 2. An interesting way to hedge your bets.

[Bash Riprock]

is Jimmy at it again....Temp to the rescue!!!! 😉

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38696639/ncaa-investigating-no-2-michigan-amid-sign-stealing-allegations

The NCAA is investigating the Michigan Wolverines' football program amid allegations of sign stealing, the Big Ten Conference announced Thursday.

The University of Michigan and the Big Ten were both notified by the NCAA of the investigation Wednesday, and the conference said it had notified the Wolverines' future opponents.

"The Big Ten Conference considers the integrity of competition to be of utmost importance and will continue to monitor the investigation," it said in a statement.

According to a report by Yahoo Sports, Michigan allegedly had people attending games of future opponents as well as possible College Football Playoff opponents to gather information on signs used to call plays on offense and defense.

If true, the No. 2 Wolverines would have violated NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1, which states: "Off-campus, in-person scouring of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited."

U.S. Integrity, a Las Vegas firm that monitors the betting market, sent out an alert to its sportsbook clients regarding the Michigan controversy Thursday, ESPN confirmed.

 

[Footballking16]

I'll be the first to question if Michigan is actually the only team that does this, but man, Michigan and Harbaugh just can't help themselves. 

[Bash Riprock]

39 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I'll be the first to question if Michigan is actually the only team that does this, but man, Michigan and Harbaugh just can't help themselves. 

Sounds a little more "advanced".....not sure if this is common or if Michigan was further out on the edge.....

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2023/10/19/michigan-sign-stealing-investigation-ncaa-penalize-jim-harbaugh-wolverines-program/71241341007/

Rigorously preparing for an upcoming opponent is central to the work done by college football teams and their coaches over the course of the season. To help with that task, programs are provided with video footage to scout teams they’re preparing to play.

What separates the Wolverines in this case is that they allegedly went beyond those traditional means of scouting. Anonymous sources cited by Yahoo claimed they used “unnamed individuals” to attend games of scheduled opponents and potential College Football Playoff foes to collect information on the signs used by those teams for their offensive and defensive plays. The Athletic reported Thursday that the Big Ten claims that Michigan used a “vast network” to steal opposing teams' signs.

NCAA rules on in-person scouting

Unlike sign-stealing, in-person scouting is explicitly forbidden, which is why Michigan could potentially be in trouble with college sports’ governing body.

Under the umbrella of “Scouting of Opponents” in the 2023-24 NCAA Division I Manual, bylaw 11.6.1 states that “off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited.”

There are exceptions to the rule outlined in corresponding bylaws, 11.6.1.1 and 11.6.1.2:

• 11.6.1.1: “Same Event at the Same Site: an institutional staff member may scout future opponents also participating in the same event at the same site.”
• 11.6.1.2: “Conference or NCAA Championships: an institutional staff member may attend a contest in the institution's conference championship or an NCAA championship contest in which a future opponent participates (e.g., an opponent on the institution's spring non-championship-segment schedule participates in a fall conference or NCAA championship).”

[temptation]

[Muda69]

Quote

If true, the No. 2 Wolverines would have violated NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1, which states: "Off-campus, in-person scouring of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited."

Frankly this is a stupid rule.  

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Frankly this is a stupid rule.  

My question is: How dumb or negligent would you have to be to get caught doing something like this? I haven't heard one instance of a team getting caught doing this in all my years of existence and didn't even know there was such a rule that existed, apparently enacted in 1994.

Most B10 stadiums seat what, 70-80k? How do you get caught doing something like this in a sea of people that big and have it trace all the way back to Michigan?

Edited October 19, 2023 by Footballking16

[Bash Riprock]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

My question is: How dumb or negligent would you have to be to get caught doing something like this? I haven't heard one instance of a team getting caught doing this in all my years of existence and didn't even know there was such a rule that existed, apparently enacted in 1994.

Most B10 stadiums seat what, 70-80k? How do you get caught doing something like this in a sea of people that big and have it trace all the way back to Michigan?

Darn Coaches...told them wear Ohio State merch!!!!

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Darn Coaches...told them wear Ohio State merch!!!!

Late 80's Temp?

[Bobref]

Perhaps more trouble?
 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38696639/ncaa-investigating-no-2-michigan-amid-sign-stealing-allegations

NCAA investigating No. 2 Michigan amid sign-stealing allegations

The NCAA is investigating the No. 2 Michigan Wolverines football program amid allegations of sign stealing, the school announced Thursday.

"I want to personally assure you that U-M Athletics will offer its complete cooperation to the NCAA in this matter," athletic director Warde Manuel said in a statement. "At the University of Michigan, all of us are committed to the highest standards of ethics and integrity for all members of our community. This is the same expectation I have of all coaches, staff, and student-athletes."

The University of Michigan and the Big Ten were both notified by the NCAA of the investigation Wednesday, and the conference said it had notified the Wolverines' future opponents.

"The Big Ten Conference considers the integrity of competition to be of utmost importance and will continue to monitor the investigation," it said in a statement.

A source told ESPN's Adam Rittenberg that the NCAA's investigation also includes allegations of similar violations by Michigan before the 2022 season. Upcoming opponents have not expressed opposition to playing Michigan after being notified by the NCAA, sources told ESPN.

The NCAA does not have rules specifically against stealing signs but does prohibit in-person advance scouting of opponents and has bylaws prohibiting unsportsmanlike activities.

According to a report by Yahoo Sports, Michigan allegedly had people attending games of future opponents as well as possible College Football Playoff opponents to gather information on signs used to call plays on offense and defense.

A source confirmed to ESPN that in-person scouting is the focus of the NCAA investigation.

If true, the Wolverines would have violated NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1, which states: "Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited."

U.S. Integrity, a Las Vegas firm that monitors the betting market, sent out an alert to its sportsbook clients regarding the Michigan controversy Thursday, ESPN confirmed.

Multiple Big Ten coaches this offseason were advocates of exploring helmet communication as a way to generally better protect signs, a source told ESPN's Pete Thamel. Potential NCAA rule changes, however, were tabled until after this season.

The NFL has long used helmet communication for signals, with the first version limited to sideline communication in 1994.

Michigan (7-0) plays Michigan State on Saturday.

"We are chagrined by the news of the NCAA investigation and we echo the Big Ten Conference's commitment to integrity," Michigan State University interim president Teresa Woodruff said in a statement. "The allegations are concerning, but will be handled through the NCAA's processes."

In its statement, Michigan said the investigation would not impact the game.

Wolverines coach Jim Harbaugh has already served a university-imposed three-game suspension this season stemming from alleged recruiting violations during the COVID-19 dead period and for not cooperating with NCAA investigators.

Michigan still is facing four Level II violations, which are considered less serious, from those alleged violations. That ruling from the NCAA is not expected until 2024.

[Bash Riprock]