Lysander

If this EC team is even a little improved over last year (which I’m fairly certain is a given) they are amongst the best 4-5 teams in the State.

Also thanks to @Just a dad for your work here on this thread.

Outstanding work, sir! Thank you @Frozen Tundra.

Up until last night’s 34-7 win over Cincinnati Elder, I thought this was just another good, solid Chatard team….but now I’m uncertain. In the years Ive watched that pairing neither team has so thoroughly dominated the other….and Chatard is doing it with their #2 QB and RB not to mention any other injuries they may have. Elder has 4 losses now but only their losses to Chatard and a good Moeller team have been by more than 4 points. They were 6 seconds away from beating St. Edwards (who some will remember beat Center Grove by 17 earlier this year) until they lost by 1 and they have also beat both Cincy and Louisville St. X this year. Everyone wants to point to the win vs. Cathedral but this thoroughgoing drubbing of Elder is much, much more significant and telling in my mind. In perspective, it seems to make the Cathedral win almost feel like it was closer than it should have been. On another note, until Sagarin incorporates out of state games in their analysis, I just can’t reasonably point to it as indicative of anything anymore. There have been waaay to many significant games played by Indiana teams against high quality out of state teams that not only aren’t measured by Sagarin but actually seem to lower teams in his ranking by even playing those games. I think Chatard actually dropped again in Sagarin after it’s blowout of Elder. Anyhoo, I don’t generally get overly excited about teams (and I’ve seen Evansville Memorial sometimes easily take Chatard’s lunch money in the past) but I’m beginning to wonder if this team isn’t along the lines of the 2019 and 2020 teams…which I considered very good. That said, anything can happen in playoffs.

Speaking for this fan (and I suspect many others), they’re (Chatard) not satisfied but, unfortunately, they will always play where the IHSAA assigns. Catholics are big on rules…I’m not one, btw….but I’m big on rules too. As regards that (and I’ve said this 1000 times….now 1001), the IHSAA is waaay to cute about always pairing Chatard and Roncalli in 4A Sectionals (as they would always pair Cathedral/Roncalli when they were in 4A). Historically, Chatard and Roncalli are almost perfectly .500 against one another BUT splitting Sectional victories sends Chatard back to 3A. The fact is, even in a REALLY down year, Chatard is almost always going to be a Top 5-10 4A team….yet they are also generally going to split Sectional Championships generally with Roncalli (at best). Which will always send them back to 3A. Thanks IHSAA. To fix this I’d suggest two simple “fixes”. One is a rules change as to the Success Factor and the other is a “pairing” problem. 1. Stop constantly pairing Chatard and Roncalli in Sectional. I know it’s a vicarious groin thrill for most when Catholics knock each other out but, in the end, it really screws up 3A. BTW, very few talk about Evansville Memorial (who has kicked @ss in 4A but is bumped 3A) but they, to a degree, are part of the 3A Catholic “problem” (you can thank me later @tango) …..I’m pretty certain Chatard has never beaten Memorial…at least in my lifetime. 2. Change the Success Factor point requirements for bumped teams to simply need 1 point to stay “up”. That by itself might solve the “Chatard” problem (but it’s also a Memorial problem) in 3A….but I guarantee you’d solve it by not always pairing them with Roncalli in conjunction with changing it from 1 point to stay up a class. ——————————————————————————————————————— Back to 4A generally being superior to 5A 70% of the time. Many here seem to be simpatico with the idea that East Central (with their stylish mullets and their handsome girlfriend-stealing southeast Indiana looks….much like a young Lysander back in the day with his Butch-wax crew cut) would have cruised through 5A last year and possibly, scared the Hell out of 6A this year. I’m a little amazed that some here, though, up until East Central BARELY EDGED out Roncalli in Playoffs (after losing to them in the regular season)seem to forget that Roncalli had a MAC-sized line and arguably the best North/South RB in the State (the kid was robbed btw as regards State awards) and was assumed to have rolled through 4A and the late DT (I can only assume this to be the case given his absence) had Roncalli as a 6A challenger. The survivor of EC/Roncalli would have rolled through 5A. I’m fully signed on with @Rodney about that. Heck, DT, before his unfortunate apparent passing had one of them challenging for 6A (Roncalli).

Chatard 34 Elder. 7 Final

Scratch that. 34-7

Chatard. 35 Elder. 7 10:16 left in 4th

Chatard. 28 Elder. 7 11:00 in 4th

Chatard. 21 Elder. 7 1:14 in. Nd

Chatard 21 Cincy Elder. 0 7:36 in 3nd q raining

Chatard. 14 Cincy Elder. 0 1:14 left in 1st Q

Yep….IYKYK…pretty well sums it up.

It’s all good. I’m not angry but, admittedly, sincerely baffled as to just how folks can seemingly seriously still, however lamely, defend 5A. It’s seems sophistry at best and delusion, at worst….or maybe vice versa. To a degree, it feels like I’m arguing with Bill Clinton over “just what “is” is”. “Is”, in its most elemental form, is not being able to defend your class against the interlopers from the class below you roughly 70-80% of the time….yet somehow insisting on your own superiority. I recognize that we live in a post-truth world these days but I thought football was still based in reality which, generally, is all about wins and losses. That said, someone (or, perhaps, multiple folks) here has (have) said that no one declared 5A “weak” while Cathedral was in it. Well, I certainly did 11 years ago. Admittedly, I’m far from the biggest Cathedral fanboy (let’s just let it go at that) but I made it pretty clear back in the day that once Cathedral had cleared the usual bloodbath in 4A that they had easy pickings in 5A.…which turned out to be the case. I think most any honest Cathedral fan would even admit it. I mean, seriously, beating 8-6 Laporte in 2014 (who was 3-5 during the regular season….and they ain’t exactly playing the MIC during the regular season)…..that’s actually considered a 5A State Championship game?!? I didn’t even know Laporte still played 11 man football….even at the time. Regardless, 5A, such as it is, remains the entirely threadbare barrier into 6A. Btw, it still also amazes me that there seems to be amnesia here as to just how good Columbus East and New Pal were during that same period (or Reitz pre-“new” 5A). Say what you want but if it wasn’t Cathedral then it would have just been Columbus East or New Pal cleaning up at the time…..BOTH Publics. Anybody paying attention in the South knew these were incredible teams that just couldn’t quite clear Cathedral. Btw, they did end up getting their share in 5A. But to be clear, I’m generally just here to make snide observations and defend the American Way….and to recognize immutable facts.

So we’re comparing “averages” to determine the strength of a class? Not actual championships? Really? So actual championships, as in 4A teams winning 7 out of 10 of the 5A Championships don’t really matter (and 1 of those 3 that wasn’t won by a 4A school was likely won by a Westfield team that was a 6A school by that time)? In 10 years it’s likely only 2 championships in 5A were actually won by a 5A team. I, honestly, can’t see anything more definitive as to how 5A measures up. They were given a “sawed-off” class after complaining about the mega-schools and STILL couldn’t win it 80% of the time. Seems definitive to me. If it’s all about the pulling out your “average” when determining who’s best then why bother? It’s like using Indianapolis Tech if you want to have a conversation about 6A football. Sorry, I’m going to talk about CG, BD, Brownsburg, etc. Maybe, just maybe, THAT mindset is the problem in 5A…to barely be above the “average”. —————————————————————————————————————— As regards East Central, I read somewhere that they were considered the top team in the Cincinnati area at this point. As to whether that was some poll or actually looking at CalPreps, etc. I don’t know. With that, they didn’t just beat Moeller this year, they handled them pretty convincingly. Center Grove barely won on OT. Btw, this East Central team is pretty much the same as last years. Most all their “players” are back. As big a chip on the shoulder as some parts of the state seem to demonstrate by whining about not getting respected, frankly, lightly populated, hillbilly Southeast Indiana gets crapped on by EVERYBODY….especially teams like East Central and Lawrenceburg.

I was in downtown Chicago the weekend of “Crusherfest” in Milwaukee this summer. I damn near made the extra trip just to pay homage to him (and, maybe, hear some tall tales of his years with the “Bruiser) and drink some of Milwaukee’s Finest. https://www.crusherfest.org I also lived in the same apartment complex as Slamming Sammy Menacker (who used to often commentate on Big Time Wrestling”) one summer. The black Speedos were probably a bad call by him at the pool, though. Heck, I did cardiac therapy with Chuck Marlowe.

Just how can it not speak for an entire class? If Cathedral had not been bumped then it would have been either Columbus East or New Pal during that time that would have stepped into their place. In the South, I think @oldtimeqb has addressed the weakness of the class. It was only in 2019 that the same Bloomington South team that had lost 42-7 against 3A Chatard in the regular season was playing against New Pal in Semistate and lost 45-0. New Pal went on to win 5A. Just how in the world is a 5A team who had been crushed by a 3A team somehow playing in a 5A Semistate? It’s embarrassing to every other class to hear these excuses and lamentations as regards just how 5A can’t win its own class 7 out of 10 years. Let’s be clear on this….just last year both 4A East Central and 4A Roncalli would have rolled through 5A if they had played in it. Frankly, I think an historically relatively modest 3A Chatard team might have won 5A as well despite not measuring up to either East Central or Roncalli. This year, 4A East Central crushes 5A. This just simply doesn’t happen in ANY other classes….excepting 5A. Where it generally happens roughly 3 out of 4 years. Let’s add another 32 teams. Somewhere in there we will find 3 or 4 quality football teams that are currently sorely lacking in 5A.

Shouldn’t 5A have their “own” Chatard, Cathedral, East Central, Columbus East, New Pal or Roncalli? That’s 5 teams alone in 4A….and let’s not forget just how good Lowell and Reitz were for an extended period 10-15 years ago. Instead, it’s general mediocrity in 5A. Outside of Snider, who actually did play in one of the last (maybe “the” last) 64 team 5A State Championship v. Lawrence Central there is no one. Why does only 5A lack those teams? Almost every other class has them. My point from Day One when 5A came about was that there simply wasn’t a year in and out group of programs that represented the top end excellence you saw in 4A (or other classes). I may well be missing something, but outside of Evansville Memorial winning 4A (which was HUGE) a few years ago has any other class experienced being won by teams from a lower class……ever? In 5A, it’s generally an expectation 70% of the time. Edit..just a quick and irrelevant afterthought. As far as I’m concerned, I think that if you just earn a single point after you are bumped up a class that should be enough to stay up.

I don’t want to get too far from the subject of this thread but I think I may need to clarify my statement a bit based on points/questions raised by both @Komets2727 and @BTF. I appreciate both your perspectives. When I was referring to 5A (as it is constituted today), my critique was of the teams that were 5A by actual enrollment not those Success Factored teams like Cathedral, New Pal or Columbus East who were all 4A teams by enrollment. In fact, they bolstered my point as to the overall weakness of the class. In the 10 years this new 5A has existed it has been won 7 times by 4A interlopers. In fact, the year Westfield won they likely were a mid-size 6A school by then. Only Snider and Valpo have won as actual 5A schools by enrollment. The fact this was going to occur was something I stated way back when the new 5A was announced because it was so obvious. As to 4A and potentially 3A in certain years, being superior to 5A teams (by enrollment) it seems pretty clear to me that when 5A is won by a bumped 4A team 7 out of 10 years that the top of 4A is superior. But aside from that, even in years where a certain 4A team (or even the top 3A team or so) might not be Success Factored “up”, they likely are better than the best 5A school by enrollment. Certainly East Central both this year and last year would be the odds on favorite in 5A. Roncalli was much better when it won 4A a couple of years back. It’s hardly been unusual for Chatard to be ranked higher than any 5A by enrollment (I believe it happened in both 2019 and 2020….and is the case currently). Heck, CalPreps has the top 4A, 3A and EVEN 1A Lutheran ranked ahead of every 5A school currently. I know Sags has Bloomington South ranked in the Top 10….man, how I wish South hadn’t bailed on that CI/CCC conference game matchup they would usually have played against Chatard last weekend. My point is that when 70% of the State Championships in your class (5A in this case) are won by teams originally from a class below it seem pretty prima facie evidence of the weakness of the class. I’m not sure there is anything more definitive….and it’s nothing new. It’s always been like that.

I have beat this same drum since the split of 5A but I will start this the same way I start any commentary I have made about the “new” 5A since its inception. In the new 5A, with the exception of Snider (and to a much more limited degree – Zionsville…there could be a couple of others…but I doubt it), the “new” 5A was formed of teams that did not exactly define football excellence. I believed it then and I’ve seen nothing but further affirmation since its birth that it is the weakest class pound for pound. It may crank out D1 players by the gross (I don’t know or care) but the teams themselves are generally underachieving as compared to the other classes. So, how did this happen? After much, b*tching and moaning, from most all of the “old” 5A teams against the mega-schools like Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, etc., the IHSAA in its Solomon-like wisdom decided that actually cutting the baby in half was, in fact, the best solution. So, we now have a 32 team 6A which it turns out has largely been dominated by a team that is one of the smallest 6A schools…hardly a “mega-school”. That said, of the 32 remaining teams in 6A, minimally 20 of those teams have no better chance of winning 6A than the split 5A teams had of winning it previously….sucks to be them, I guess. So now, the IHSAA, in its baby-splitting wisdom, forms a new Class 5A composed of the remnants of the old 5A at the same time as it establishes the Success Factor. I didn’t have to be a genius to look at ALL the analytics and the easy evidence of these new 5A teams actually playing good 4A teams (with the exceptions above) to be able to state the obvious – the IHSAA had basically put together a 32 team class of punching bags for bumped up 4A teams. Invariably, by season end, the analytics usually had several 4A (and even 3A) teams that were by all measure better than the best current 5A team. They might not have been bumped up at that time but they were, frankly, better. 5A was an absolute gift to Cathedral those first couple of years versus 4A. So why did these new 5A teams merit an abortive 32 team class? Beats me....just split the baby says the butcher rather than the surgeon....its easier. It seems to me the smallest 1A teams might have a stronger claim to needing that first playoff weekend off. My sense is that some of those schools might well have to struggle to put their best team out there by season end...maybe even a full team. An extra week to heal would likely do them a lot more good. A 64 team 5A would simply be a much better Class. It would be much deeper and more internally competitive in every regard and you wouldn’t ever end up with a 3 team pint-sized Sectional. To be clear, as ridiculous as I consider a 3 team “Sectional” to be, I consider 5A, in its current 32 team format to be entirely ludicrous…and generally not very good comparatively.

5A Sectional 12 has 3 teams in it. 3 Teams….one of which is Snider (whom I admire)…but still..3 freakin’ teams. I’m sorry but 5A as it stands today is a joke.

Chatard 42 Shortridge 6 Final

Chatard 42 Shortridge 0 Start of 2nd Half Running Clock

Chatard 35 Shortridge 0 2:40 left in 2nd Q

Chatard 28 Shortridge 0 10:00 left in 2nd Q