MIC Week #8

[Komets2727]

Just now, temptation said:

So, we’ve sorta conceded that Carroll is going to eliminate Snider in a potential tournament rematch, making it 5 of the last 6 for the Chargers?

Sorry, that’s a trend.

Whatever you say. You know, rather then questioning Snider, fresh off a state title, I think there are bigger questions out there like: 1) what the Hell is going in at Carmel? 2) why can’t Brownsburg win in the playoffs? 3) what has happened to Penn? 4) is Center Grove’s run of dominance over? 5) can Fishers play with the big boys? 6) is Westfield ready to win a state title. I am good with where Snider is

[temptation]

8 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Whatever you say. You know, rather then questioning Snider, fresh off a state title, I think there are bigger questions out there like: 1) what the Hell is going in at Carmel? 2) why can’t Brownsburg win in the playoffs? 3) what has happened to Penn? 4) is Center Grove’s run of dominance over? 5) can Fishers play with the big boys? 6) is Westfield ready to win a state title. I am good with where Snider is

I’ve asked each one of those questions, many very recently…

I am not attacking you nor Snider by the way.  Please don’t be so sensitive.

[JustRules]

1 hour ago, Komets2727 said:

Whatever you say. You know, rather then questioning Snider, fresh off a state title, I think there are bigger questions out there like: 1) what the Hell is going in at Carmel? 2) why can’t Brownsburg win in the playoffs? 3) what has happened to Penn? 4) is Center Grove’s run of dominance over? 5) can Fishers play with the big boys? 6) is Westfield ready to win a state title. I am good with where Snider is

Carmel has a relatively down year but they are still a good football team that will beat a lot of other good 6A teams. Brownsburg can win in the tournament, but many of the 6A teams in Indy play really good teams each week, and it only takes one bad week to get beat. What Center Grove did winning 3 in a row is an amazing accomplishment. They could have won last year and could win this year. But there are a lot of other really good teams in their path. Just because they could lose in the sectional or regional doesn't mean they aren't a good team. Westfield has proven the last 3 years they are good enough to compete with the big boys and could be looking at 3 straight state titles coming into this year. There are probably 5 or 6 teams that could win state in 6A this year and it wouldn't surprise me.

[Komets2727]

26 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Carmel has a relatively down year but they are still a good football team that will beat a lot of other good 6A teams. Brownsburg can win in the tournament, but many of the 6A teams in Indy play really good teams each week, and it only takes one bad week to get beat. What Center Grove did winning 3 in a row is an amazing accomplishment. They could have won last year and could win this year. But there are a lot of other really good teams in their path. Just because they could lose in the sectional or regional doesn't mean they aren't a good team. Westfield has proven the last 3 years they are good enough to compete with the big boys and could be looking at 3 straight state titles coming into this year. There are probably 5 or 6 teams that could win state in 6A this year and it wouldn't surprise me.

Other than Carmel, I agree with your assessment. Carmel has been a non-factor for a little while now and it is puzzling. Others that are closer to the Carmel situation are seemingly frustrated with their play and record over the past few years. Center Grove is the standard bearer as far as I am concerned. Westfield has proven to be a consistent performer over the last several years. When is Fishers going to take a big step forward? Same with HSE. Brownsburg has to get over the hump this year. BD could be a spoiler as well. Can Cathedral make some noise and get that long sought after 6A title? It is a meat grinder in 6A South.

Right now, I have Brownsburg, Westfield, and Lawrence North as the 3 favorites. I will be surprised if one of those teams don’t win it. Cathedral, Center Grove, and Crown Point are in that next tier.

[BDGiant93]

2 hours ago, JustRules said:

Carmel has a relatively down year but they are still a good football team that will beat a lot of other good 6A teams. 

I have been an Indiana High School Football fan since the 1980's and an avid follower since my sophomore year at Ben Davis in 1990. I have never seen a Carmel football team achieve at a lower level than this year's squad. They look lost, and it's getting worse.

For comparison, Ben Davis looked lost early, and they've got astronomically better in all three phases. 

[Komets2727]

13 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I have been an Indiana High School Football fan since the 1980's and an avid follower since my sophomore year at Ben Davis in 1990. I have never seen a Carmel football team achieve at a lower level than this year's squad. They look lost, and it's getting worse.

For comparison, Ben Davis looked lost early, and they've got astronomically better in all three phases. 

 Culture seems off at Carmel. Is it the players, coaching, or a combo of both?

[FastpacedO]

13 hours ago, Komets2727 said:

Whatever you say. You know, rather then questioning Snider, fresh off a state title, I think there are bigger questions out there like: 1) what the Hell is going in at Carmel? 2) why can’t Brownsburg win in the playoffs? 3) what has happened to Penn? 4) is Center Grove’s run of dominance over? 5) can Fishers play with the big boys? 6) is Westfield ready to win a state title. I am good with where Snider is

I will give you a answer from my perspective.

1.) Carmel - I don't think anyone can figure out what is going on with the Hounds. Their wins have been over Homestead who has had a couple average seasons lately, Centerville OH who is 5-3 and a struggling North central team. They played well against Westfield early in the season but since have lost to 4A Brebeuf (a shocker even though the Braves can score) and blown out by Ben Davis and Warren Central. It will be tough for them in the tournament but they are fully capable of getting a win if they play to their capabilities and haven't packed it in.

2.) Brownsburg - The tough thing about the South bracket is it can be brutal. Brownsburg is in a sectional with Ben Davis and Avon and when they are good it is tough. If you want to make it to State you (as Brownsburg learned the last 2 years) you have to bring your A game. The last 3 seasons they have lost to Ben Davis 2 times and Cathedral. Over looking it Brownsburg was able to stay good but while they stayed steady Ben Davis and Cathedral improved. Last year was simply blunders in crunch time of the 4th quarter from play calls, clock management, and fundamentals. I would bet that was a focus in the off season. They have athletes at all skill positions, a HUGE O-line, and 2 very capable QB's. Defense has been inconsistent at times but good enough to win in their bad days.

3.) Penn - I am not sure what happened to Penn they seemed promising wih that opening victory against Valpo then lost to Mishawaka and they dropped the close one to Elkhart. We have a couple good posters from the Penn area on here. I am wondering if they see potential. Do they think the players are trending either way under Coach Riordan in his first year at the helm. Having Penn solid again will only make the North 6A bracket better.

4.) Center Grove - No the well is not dry for the Trojans. They had a back and forth game with Cathedral, Cathedral just made 2 or 3 more effort plays late in the game than Center Grove did. CG had 314 yards passing and 226 rushing against the Irish. With Lawrence North they had 252 passing and 171 rushing. Both Cathedral and Lawrence North have fast RB's and WR's that CG had trouble stopping. CG throws the ball a bit more and turnovers (Interceptions) hurt them at key times in both games. Against Cathedral the end of the game and against LN it kept them from tightening up the ball game and allowed LN to extend their lead. CG is fine and if I am a Head Coach wouldn't want to see them in the tournament.

5.) Fishers- The Tigers are much better with Sturgill at QB. He is injured right now and not sure how long he is out. They are still okay without him but a lot better with him. Winning in the Hoosier Crossroads is tough. The last 2 weeks they lost to Franklin central who has found their stride and doors blown off by Westfield, they did play Brownsburg very very tight. They play Zionsville who is not a bad team even though they are 3-5 Eugene Hilton (TY Hilton's son) can give teams fits. It won't be easy for Fishers but they are much better with Sturgill at QB and they are capable of playing with the big boys.

6.) Westfield - To me the Rocks and the Brownsburg Bulldogs were who I felt had the best chance of playing in the State Championship. Westfield is very physical on defense and running the football (Webster plays both sides of the ball), but they also throw the ball very well. They lost to Brownsburg 17-13 at Brownsburg game moved to a Saturday, their QB Melvin (Bowling Green commit) was knocked out of the game in the 3rd qtr and didn't return. It was a great game to watch in person. Their HC from last year (Jake Gilbert) went to Wabash College (he was a Wabash grad) to be DC and Head Coach in waiting as Wabash's HC is retiring after this year. Coach Miracle worked on Gilbert staff as DC so everything in their system is exactly the same. Yes I think Westfield is very capable of a State title.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2024 by FastpacedO

[temptation]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

I will give you a answer from my perspective.

1.) Carmel - I don't think anyone can figure out what is going on with the Hounds. Their wins have been over Homestead who has had a couple average seasons lately, Centerville OH who is 5-3 and a struggling North central team. They played well against Westfield early in the season but since have lost to 4A Brebeuf (a shocker even though the Braves can score) and blown out by Ben Davis and Warren Central. It will be tough for them in the tournament but they are fully capable of getting a win if they play to their capabilities and haven't packed it in.

2.) Brownsburg - The tough thing about the South bracket is it can be brutal. Brownsburg is in a sectional with Ben Davis and Avon and when they are good it is tough. If you want to make it to State you (as Brownsburg learned the last 2 years) you have to bring your A game. The last 3 seasons they have lost to Ben Davis 2 times and Cathedral. Over looking it Brownsburg was able to stay good but while they stayed steady Ben Davis and Cathedral improved. Last year was simply blunders in crunch time of the 4th quarter from play calls, clock management, and fundamentals. I would bet that was a focus in the off season. They have athletes at all skill positions, a HUGE O-line, and 2 very capable QB's. Defense has been inconsistent at times but good enough to win in their bad days.

3.) Penn - I am not sure what happened to Penn they seemed promising wih that opening victory against Valpo then lost to Mishawaka and they dropped the close one to Elkhart. We have a couple good posters from the Penn area on here. I am wondering if they see potential. Do they think the players are trending either way under Coach Riordan in his first year at the helm. Having Penn solid again will only make the North 6A bracket better.

4.) Center Grove - No the well is not dry for the Trojans. They had a back and forth game with Cathedral, Cathedral just made 2 or 3 more effort plays late in the game than Center Grove did. CG had 314 yards passing and 226 rushing against the Irish. With Lawrence North they had 252 passing and 171 rushing. Both Cathedral and Lawrence North have fast RB's and WR's that CG had trouble stopping. CG throws the ball a bit more and turnovers (Interceptions) hurt them at key times in both games. Against Cathedral the end of the game and against LN it kept them from tightening up the ball game and allowed LN to extend their lead. CG is fine and if I am a Head Coach wouldn't want to see them in the tournament.

5.) Fishers- The Tigers are much better with Sturgill at QB. He is injured right now and not sure how long he is out. They are still okay without him but a lot better with him. Winning in the Hoosier Crossroads is tough. The last 2 weeks they lost to Franklin central who has found their stride and doors blown off by Westfield, they did play Brownsburg very very tight. They play Zionsville who is not a bad team even though they are 3-5 Eugene Hilton (TY Hilton's son) can give teams fits. It won't be easy for Fishers but they are much better with Sturgill at QB and they are capable of playing with the big boys.

6.) Westfield - To me the Rocks and the Brownsburg Bulldogs were who I felt had the best chance of playing in the State Championship. Westfield is very physical on defense and running the football (Webster plays both sides of the ball), but they also throw the ball very well. They lost to Brownsburg 17-13 at Brownsburg game moved to a Saturday, their QB Melvin (Bowling Green commit) was knocked out of the game in the 3rd qtr and didn't return. It was a great game to watch in person. Their HC from last year (Jake Gilbert) went to Wabash College (he was a Wabash grad) to be DC and Head Coach in waiting as Wabash's HC is retiring after this year. Coach Miracle worked on Gilbert staff as DC so everything in their system is exactly the same. Yes I think Westfield is very capable of a State title.

 

 

 

 

Good stuff.  
 

My take (from afar) on a couple…

Just seems that Carmel has reached a tipping point.  There is no excuse for their last two blowout losses as they should be a top 5-10 program annually at minimum.  Speculation is what we do on this forum but I think it has to be some sort of culture problem.  Not sure if that falls on the head coach or not but I think it’s pretty obvious. It’s going to be difficult for him to survive without some sort of tournament magic next month.  They still dominate the country club sports athletically, but have become mediocre in the ball sports over the last couple of years.

I still can’t take Brownsburg seriously until I see it in November.  I know that may seem shortsighted as each season it is a new team, but I’m afraid to stick my neck out and make bold predictions about this team because they always seem to step on a rake somehow.  I’m torn on whether or not those regular season escapes against Westfield, Noblesville, and Fishers will make them better in the tournament or are signs that they are vulnerable.  Time will tell.

I have been as bullish on Lawrence North as anyone if you go back and read my posts from this summer.  Not taking some sort of victory lap because even I did not predict this. I thought that they could challenge Cathedral for the sectional title, but thought that would be their ceiling.  Their speed and athleticism just jumps off the screen when I watch them play.
 

Even though I suggested that Center Grove may be ripe for the picking in a separate thread I think anyone counting the Trojans out is doing so at a great risk.  Moore will have his team ready as always and they are the “anti-Brownsburg.”  You know you’re getting their best version in the tournament and have revenge on their minds as they should get a shot at either Cathedral or LN and possibly Westfield eventually.

All I know is, since I have been a part of this forum I have been begging for parity in 6A, and I finally feel like it’s here!

Edited October 16, 2024 by temptation

[Komets2727]

7 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

I will give you a answer from my perspective.

1.) Carmel - I don't think anyone can figure out what is going on with the Hounds. Their wins have been over Homestead who has had a couple average seasons lately, Centerville OH who is 5-3 and a struggling North central team. They played well against Westfield early in the season but since have lost to 4A Brebeuf (a shocker even though the Braves can score) and blown out by Ben Davis and Warren Central. It will be tough for them in the tournament but they are fully capable of getting a win if they play to their capabilities and haven't packed it in.

2.) Brownsburg - The tough thing about the South bracket is it can be brutal. Brownsburg is in a sectional with Ben Davis and Avon and when they are good it is tough. If you want to make it to State you (as Brownsburg learned the last 2 years) you have to bring your A game. The last 3 seasons they have lost to Ben Davis 2 times and Cathedral. Over looking it Brownsburg was able to stay good but while they stayed steady Ben Davis and Cathedral improved. Last year was simply blunders in crunch time of the 4th quarter from play calls, clock management, and fundamentals. I would bet that was a focus in the off season. They have athletes at all skill positions, a HUGE O-line, and 2 very capable QB's. Defense has been inconsistent at times but good enough to win in their bad days.

3.) Penn - I am not sure what happened to Penn they seemed promising wih that opening victory against Valpo then lost to Mishawaka and they dropped the close one to Elkhart. We have a couple good posters from the Penn area on here. I am wondering if they see potential. Do they think the players are trending either way under Coach Riordan in his first year at the helm. Having Penn solid again will only make the North 6A bracket better.

4.) Center Grove - No the well is not dry for the Trojans. They had a back and forth game with Cathedral, Cathedral just made 2 or 3 more effort plays late in the game than Center Grove did. CG had 314 yards passing and 226 rushing against the Irish. With Lawrence North they had 252 passing and 171 rushing. Both Cathedral and Lawrence North have fast RB's and WR's that CG had trouble stopping. CG throws the ball a bit more and turnovers (Interceptions) hurt them at key times in both games. Against Cathedral the end of the game and against LN it kept them from tightening up the ball game and allowed LN to extend their lead. CG is fine and if I am a Head Coach wouldn't want to see them in the tournament.

5.) Fishers- The Tigers are much better with Sturgill at QB. He is injured right now and not sure how long he is out. They are still okay without him but a lot better with him. Winning in the Hoosier Crossroads is tough. The last 2 weeks they lost to Franklin central who has found their stride and doors blown off by Westfield, they did play Brownsburg very very tight. They play Zionsville who is not a bad team even though they are 3-5 Eugene Hilton (TY Hilton's son) can give teams fits. It won't be easy for Fishers but they are much better with Sturgill at QB and they are capable of playing with the big boys.

6.) Westfield - To me the Rocks and the Brownsburg Bulldogs were who I felt had the best chance of playing in the State Championship. Westfield is very physical on defense and running the football (Webster plays both sides of the ball), but they also throw the ball very well. They lost to Brownsburg 17-13 at Brownsburg game moved to a Saturday, their QB Melvin (Bowling Green commit) was knocked out of the game in the 3rd qtr and didn't return. It was a great game to watch in person. Their HC from last year (Jake Gilbert) went to Wabash College (he was a Wabash grad) to be DC and Head Coach in waiting as Wabash's HC is retiring after this year. Coach Miracle worked on Gilbert staff as DC so everything in their system is exactly the same. Yes I think Westfield is very capable of a State title.

 

 

 

 

Quality post. You too Temp. Love other people’s thoughts even if they are different than mine. It makes for good banter. I am pretty much onboard with what you both think. Carmel needs a coaching change, I just think there is a culture problem on that team. Brownsburg is just a mystery to everyone. Great regular season team, chokes like a chicken in the playoffs. They were the best team in the state last year. Penn is a team that I like to root for, quality people there, but I am saying this, team speed is not comparable to Indy teams. Take that for what you will.

Center Grove is the standard bearer, period. That team can win any game at anytime. Count them out at your own peril. Not buying Fishers or HSE this year, just being honest. Westfield is a definite state title contender. This team reminds of some Center Grove teams except with more flash and dash. Lawrence North is the wild card for me.Speed galore, but what happens against Cathedral? Best game of week 2 in the state. Crown Point I expect to get to semi-state to a likely showdown with Westfield. That will likely be the best game in the state that weekend. Put up or shut up time for CP. Can’t wait for the tourney to begin!!!

[temptation]

11 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Quality post. You too Temp. Love other people’s thoughts even if they are different than mine. It makes for good banter. I am pretty much onboard with what you both think. Carmel needs a coaching change, I just think there is a culture problem on that team. Brownsburg is just a mystery to everyone. Great regular season team, chokes like a chicken in the playoffs. They were the best team in the state last year. Penn is a team that I like to root for, quality people there, but I am saying this, team speed is not comparable to Indy teams. Take that for what you will.

Center Grove is the standard bearer, period. That team can win any game at anytime. Count them out at your own peril. Not buying Fishers or HSE this year, just being honest. Westfield is a definite state title contender. This team reminds of some Center Grove teams except with more flash and dash. Lawrence North is the wild card for me.Speed galore, but what happens against Cathedral? Best game of week 2 in the state. Crown Point I expect to get to semi-state to a likely showdown with Westfield. That will likely be the best game in the state that weekend. Put up or shut up time for CP. Can’t wait for the tourney to begin!!!

Correct on Penn with one caveat.  You mention “team speed” and are absolutely correct, but Watson can absolutely FLY.

I hate the term “football speed” because speed is speed (if you do enough digging, I think there’s a thread on here about it, lol).  Watson is possibly the fastest player in Indiana.  Problem is LN has 3-4 guys right there as does CG and Cathedral to a smaller extent.

The stars have aligned for Brownsburg, at least as far as the sectional is concerned.  If they don’t pull it off this year, some serious reflections will need to take place.

Can’t remember a year since the inception of 6A that we have had this much conversation around a handful of teams at this stage.

Exciting times for sure.

Edited October 16, 2024 by temptation

[FastpacedO]

36 minutes ago, temptation said:

Correct on Penn with one caveat.  You mention “team speed” and are absolutely correct, but Watson can absolutely FLY.

I hate the term “football speed” because speed is speed (if you do enough digging, I think there’s a thread on here about it, lol).  Watson is possibly the fastest player in Indiana.  Problem is LN has 3-4 guys right there as does CG and Cathedral to a smaller extent.

The stars have aligned for Brownsburg, at least as far as the sectional is concerned.  If they don’t pull it off this year, some serious reflections will need to take place.

Can’t remember a year since the inception of 6A that we have had this much conversation around a handful of teams at this stage.

Exciting times for sure.

Speed is speed and I have Tractor Speed these days.

 

[AT53]

9 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

I will give you a answer from my perspective.

1.) Carmel - I don't think anyone can figure out what is going on with the Hounds. Their wins have been over Homestead who has had a couple average seasons lately, Centerville OH who is 5-3 and a struggling North central team. They played well against Westfield early in the season but since have lost to 4A Brebeuf (a shocker even though the Braves can score) and blown out by Ben Davis and Warren Central. It will be tough for them in the tournament but they are fully capable of getting a win if they play to their capabilities and haven't packed it in.

2.) Brownsburg - The tough thing about the South bracket is it can be brutal. Brownsburg is in a sectional with Ben Davis and Avon and when they are good it is tough. If you want to make it to State you (as Brownsburg learned the last 2 years) you have to bring your A game. The last 3 seasons they have lost to Ben Davis 2 times and Cathedral. Over looking it Brownsburg was able to stay good but while they stayed steady Ben Davis and Cathedral improved. Last year was simply blunders in crunch time of the 4th quarter from play calls, clock management, and fundamentals. I would bet that was a focus in the off season. They have athletes at all skill positions, a HUGE O-line, and 2 very capable QB's. Defense has been inconsistent at times but good enough to win in their bad days.

3.) Penn - I am not sure what happened to Penn they seemed promising wih that opening victory against Valpo then lost to Mishawaka and they dropped the close one to Elkhart. We have a couple good posters from the Penn area on here. I am wondering if they see potential. Do they think the players are trending either way under Coach Riordan in his first year at the helm. Having Penn solid again will only make the North 6A bracket better.

4.) Center Grove - No the well is not dry for the Trojans. They had a back and forth game with Cathedral, Cathedral just made 2 or 3 more effort plays late in the game than Center Grove did. CG had 314 yards passing and 226 rushing against the Irish. With Lawrence North they had 252 passing and 171 rushing. Both Cathedral and Lawrence North have fast RB's and WR's that CG had trouble stopping. CG throws the ball a bit more and turnovers (Interceptions) hurt them at key times in both games. Against Cathedral the end of the game and against LN it kept them from tightening up the ball game and allowed LN to extend their lead. CG is fine and if I am a Head Coach wouldn't want to see them in the tournament.

5.) Fishers- The Tigers are much better with Sturgill at QB. He is injured right now and not sure how long he is out. They are still okay without him but a lot better with him. Winning in the Hoosier Crossroads is tough. The last 2 weeks they lost to Franklin central who has found their stride and doors blown off by Westfield, they did play Brownsburg very very tight. They play Zionsville who is not a bad team even though they are 3-5 Eugene Hilton (TY Hilton's son) can give teams fits. It won't be easy for Fishers but they are much better with Sturgill at QB and they are capable of playing with the big boys.

6.) Westfield - To me the Rocks and the Brownsburg Bulldogs were who I felt had the best chance of playing in the State Championship. Westfield is very physical on defense and running the football (Webster plays both sides of the ball), but they also throw the ball very well. They lost to Brownsburg 17-13 at Brownsburg game moved to a Saturday, their QB Melvin (Bowling Green commit) was knocked out of the game in the 3rd qtr and didn't return. It was a great game to watch in person. Their HC from last year (Jake Gilbert) went to Wabash College (he was a Wabash grad) to be DC and Head Coach in waiting as Wabash's HC is retiring after this year. Coach Miracle worked on Gilbert staff as DC so everything in their system is exactly the same. Yes I think Westfield is very capable of a State title.

 

 

 

 

Of course they “see potential”. It’s a new head coach, they’re young on defense, and they’re running a new offense with a wide receiver at QB. 

[FastpacedO]

13 hours ago, AT53 said:

Of course they “see potential”. It’s a new head coach, they’re young on defense, and they’re running a new offense with a wide receiver at QB. 

Unfortunately being a new Head Coach doesn't always equal to seeing potential amongst fans, parents, etc.

I will give a prime example after 7 years at Evansville Reitz (5 Sectional Titles, 2 Regionals, 1 Semi-State, 1 State Title) Coach Hart took the job at Warren Central in 2008 and was under heavy fire from the start as not being the right fit. In 4 years (2008-2011) at Warren Central (2 Sectional Titles, 1 Regional, 1 Semi-State, 1 State Title) he amassed a 42-8 record and ended up leaving for Illinois to coach at Huntley were in 4 years he went 2012 6-4, 2013 4-5,  2014 8-2, and 2015 10-1. He left Huntley to take the HC job at Brownsburg while it hasn't translated to a State Championship he has done well at Brownsburg with a record of 77-18. Just an example of how new HC isn't always seen as having potential (even if it unwarranted).

[AT53]

6 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Unfortunately being a new Head Coach doesn't always equal to seeing potential amongst fans, parents, etc.

I will give a prime example after 7 years at Evansville Reitz (5 Sectional Titles, 2 Regionals, 1 Semi-State, 1 State Title) Coach Hart took the job at Warren Central in 2008 and was under heavy fire from the start as not being the right fit. In 4 years (2008-2011) at Warren Central (2 Sectional Titles, 1 Regional, 1 Semi-State, 1 State Title) he amassed a 42-8 record and ended up leaving for Illinois to coach at Huntley were in 4 years he went 2012 6-4, 2013 4-5,  2014 8-2, and 2015 10-1. He left Huntley to take the HC job at Brownsburg while it hasn't translated to a State Championship he has done well at Brownsburg with a record of 77-18. Just an example of how new HC isn't always seen as having potential (even if it unwarranted).

Agree 100%. Just trying to say it’s too early to throw in the towel after a (hopefully) two loss regular season and new personnel…Willing to give it time as a fan. 

[BDGiant93]

Lawrence North compares very favorably on the offensive side of the football to the 2014 Ben Davis team that won state. Weapons all over the place with a big, smart quarterback who can deliver the football where it needs to go. That Ben Davis team also had Dorian Tate and Chris Evans in the backfield. They don't have anyone who can compare to Asmar Bilal on defense, but they do have a defense that plays well with the lead. 

I've seen them compared to the 2017 BD team and the 2018 WC team. Not sure I'm ready to go that far. Those two teams were both regarded and should be regarded as two of the best-ever teams in Indiana.

[temptation]

28 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Lawrence North compares very favorably on the offensive side of the football to the 2014 Ben Davis team that won state. Weapons all over the place with a big, smart quarterback who can deliver the football where it needs to go. That Ben Davis team also had Dorian Tate and Chris Evans in the backfield. They don't have anyone who can compare to Asmar Bilal on defense, but they do have a defense that plays well with the lead. 

I've seen them compared to the 2017 BD team and the 2018 WC team. Not sure I'm ready to go that far. Those two teams were both regarded and should be regarded as two of the best-ever teams in Indiana.

What about 2023 BD?  

[FastpacedO]

10 hours ago, temptation said:

What about 2023 BD?  

I think Ben Davis' 2023 squad was much better on the defensive side of the ball than the current Lawrence North team. Offensively comparable maybe 1 or 2 more speedsters at WR than BD had. Both 2023 BD offense and this year LN have shifty quick RB's a WR that is a absolute burner. While Ben Davis had some terrific WR's outside of Zackery LN's other WR probably have a little more speed. QB wise both BD and LN had smart QB's that could throw the ball, BD's QB was a better runner.

Defensively LN plays very good especially with a lead, but they aren't to 2023 Ben Davis level. That Ben Davis defense last year was pretty nasty!

[temptation]

21 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I think Ben Davis' 2023 squad was much better on the defensive side of the ball than the current Lawrence North team. Offensively comparable maybe 1 or 2 more speedsters at WR than BD had. Both 2023 BD offense and this year LN have shifty quick RB's a WR that is a absolute burner. While Ben Davis had some terrific WR's outside of Zackery LN's other WR probably have a little more speed. QB wise both BD and LN had smart QB's that could throw the ball, BD's QB was a better runner.

Defensively LN plays very good especially with a lead, but they aren't to 2023 Ben Davis level. That Ben Davis defense last year was pretty nasty!

No IMG on the schedule but the 2024 LN defense has given up an average of 15.8 points per game.

The 2023 BD defense gave up an average of 18.1.

Just sayin.

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

No IMG on the schedule but the 2024 LN defense has given up an average of 15.8 points per game.

The 2023 BD defense gave up an average of 18.1.

Just sayin.

I hear you, but i feel Ben Davis 2023 played against some better offenses than Lawrence North has. Especially with Moeller and IMG on the schedule. The goose egg on Tech and giving up only 10 to North Central and 7 to an obviously not great WC offense really drives down their average. Now don't get me wrong LN by no means has a bad defense, they have speed for sure. They are better in the backend secondary than up front, but have speed up front too. Ben Davis was really good up front (D-line, LB's) and had some great players in the secondary. This is all just my opinion though.

 

[temptation]

14 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I hear you, but i feel Ben Davis 2023 played against some better offenses than Lawrence North has. Especially with Moeller and IMG on the schedule. The goose egg on Tech and giving up only 10 to North Central and 7 to an obviously not great WC offense really drives down their average. Now don't get me wrong LN by no means has a bad defense, they have speed for sure. They are better in the backend secondary than up front, but have speed up front too. Ben Davis was really good up front (D-line, LB's) and had some great players in the secondary. This is all just my opinion though.

 

Immediately after I submitted that post I also remembered that BD gave up two special team scores to Warren and I’m sure 1-2 other “miscellaneous” TDs so maybe average points per game doesn’t tell the whole story.

LN’s games against North Side and Tech were also called at the half due to weather so there’s that.

Look, I hate anointing a team without proper credentials and I am surely a bit premature in my assessment of LN but with each passing week I get closer and closer to becoming a believer.

When they stomped BD…”well it’s not a typical BD team.”

Then they stomped Warren…”well, Warren’s offense is pitiful.”

Then they rolled CG…

Three weeks in a row…and look what BD and Warren have done since LN “woke them up.”

[FastpacedO]

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Immediately after I submitted that post I also remembered that BD gave up two special team scores to Warren and I’m sure 1-2 other “miscellaneous” TDs so maybe average points per game doesn’t tell the whole story.

LN’s games against North Side and Tech were also called at the half due to weather so there’s that.

Look, I hate anointing a team without proper credentials and I am surely a bit premature in my assessment of LN but with each passing week I get closer and closer to becoming a believer.

When they stomped BD…”well it’s not a typical BD team.”

Then they stomped Warren…”well, Warren’s offense is pitiful.”

Then they rolled CG…

Three weeks in a row…and look what BD and Warren have done since LN “woke them up.”

The most impressive victory to date is the Center Grove game. I knew Warren Central and Ben Davis were going to struggle to keep up scoring with LN it was more of can their defense limit LN from scoring to keep them in it. Neither succeeded. Center Grove on the other hand had an offense that can keep up scoring, LN was able to create turnovers to extend their lead and make CG play from behind. That was very impressive win to me.

LN has deficiencies (turnovers and minor other things). They have been able to over come those at almost every opportunity. They eliminate the minor deficiencies and they will be very tough to beat unless you can out score them.

Edited October 18, 2024 by FastpacedO

[temptation]

On 10/15/2024 at 7:24 PM, Komets2727 said:

Other than Carmel, I agree with your assessment. Carmel has been a non-factor for a little while now and it is puzzling. Others that are closer to the Carmel situation are seemingly frustrated with their play and record over the past few years. Center Grove is the standard bearer as far as I am concerned. Westfield has proven to be a consistent performer over the last several years. When is Fishers going to take a big step forward? Same with HSE. Brownsburg has to get over the hump this year. BD could be a spoiler as well. Can Cathedral make some noise and get that long sought after 6A title? It is a meat grinder in 6A South.

Right now, I have Brownsburg, Westfield, and Lawrence North as the 3 favorites. I will be surprised if one of those teams don’t win it. Cathedral, Center Grove, and Crown Point are in that next tier.

Just did a quick bit of research on the history of Carmel High School athletics based on limited information and want to pose this question.

Are we being fair to the Greyhounds?

Take this with a grain of salt and there are a lot of variables (enrollment changes, growth, advancements in sports, etc) but hear me out.

By decade, Carmel has won the following amount of team state championships in current IHSAA sports.

1980’s:  27

1990’s:  30

2000’s:  31

2010’s:  60

2020’s (thus far at halfway):  23

Now, Carmel did not become a “mega school” until the late 1990’s unless I am mistaken.  IHSAA enrollment data before 2000 is very difficult to find and in that particular update they were Indiana’s second largest school at roughly 2600 students.

Translation:  They have doubled in size in the last 25 years with much of that growth taking place in the 2010’s, a decade in which they won an astonishing SIXTY IHSAA team state championships.

At the halfway point of the current decade, they are on pace for 46 which is obviously still damn impressive but on the surface it appears they will fall short of their 2010’s level success.

Obviously, this forum focuses on football, but maybe it’s just possible that for one reason or another, the bar for Carmel is so high that we are unrealistic?  Has everyone else caught up?  Is it parity?

I have spoken at length on this forum about there being a tipping point when it comes to enrollment and I don’t think there is much of an advantage in 5300 over 3000.

Carmel is usually a pretty easy target and is sort of like the New York Yankees of Indiana high school athletics because of their high standard, but this makes me think that this is simply a credit to the rest of the state and us having unrealistic expectations for the Greyhounds.

That being said, I would be surprised that barring a surprise tournament run, they will make a coaching change this off season.

 

Edited October 18, 2024 by temptation

[Komets2727]

3 hours ago, temptation said:

Just did a quick bit of research on the history of Carmel High School athletics based on limited information and want to pose this question.

Are we being fair to the Greyhounds?

Take this with a grain of salt and there are a lot of variables (enrollment changes, growth, advancements in sports, etc) but hear me out.

By decade, Carmel has won the following amount of team state championships in current IHSAA sports.

1980’s:  27

1990’s:  30

2000’s:  31

2010’s:  60

2020’s (thus far at halfway):  23

Now, Carmel did not become a “mega school” until the late 1990’s unless I am mistaken.  IHSAA enrollment data before 2000 is very difficult to find and in that particular update they were Indiana’s second largest school at roughly 2600 students.

Translation:  They have doubled in size in the last 25 years with much of that growth taking place in the 2010’s, a decade in which they won an astonishing SIXTY IHSAA team state championships.

At the halfway point of the current decade, they are on pace for 46 which is obviously still damn impressive but on the surface it appears they will fall short of their 2010’s level success.

Obviously, this forum focuses on football, but maybe it’s just possible that for one reason or another, the bar for Carmel is so high that we are unrealistic?  Has everyone else caught up?  Is it parity?

I have spoken at length on this forum about there being a tipping point when it comes to enrollment and I don’t think there is much of an advantage in 5300 over 3000.

Carmel is usually a pretty easy target and is sort of like the New York Yankees of Indiana high school athletics because of their high standard, but this makes me think that this is simply a credit to the rest of the state and us having unrealistic expectations for the Greyhounds.

That being said, I would be surprised that barring a surprise tournament run, they will make a coaching change this off season.

 

Not unrealistic at all to expect Carmel to be a state title contender every year. Last 5 years they are a non-factor in competing for a state title. That should be unacceptable for that school. I get the fact that they are not going to win the title every year, but damn, they aren’t even close recently. The amount of state titles in other sports shows what an advantage they really have with the enrollment numbers, yet they can’t at least be a serious contender in football?

[temptation]

54 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Not unrealistic at all to expect Carmel to be a state title contender every year. Last 5 years they are a non-factor in competing for a state title. That should be unacceptable for that school. I get the fact that they are not going to win the title every year, but damn, they aren’t even close recently. The amount of state titles in other sports shows what an advantage they really have with the enrollment numbers, yet they can’t at least be a serious contender in football?

Point of diminishing returns in terms of enrollment, low FRL number means they have that country club/suburban lack of grit?

Just spit balling.

Never thought I’d be in the position of making excuses for Carmel but here we are.

Edited October 18, 2024 by temptation

[Komets2727]

39 minutes ago, temptation said:

Point of diminishing returns in terms of enrollment, low FRL number means they have that country club/suburban lack of grit?

Just spit balling.

Never thought I’d be in the position of making excuses for Carmel but here we are.

Dude, you spent your Summer defending Warren Central and now you are defending Carmel. What the🤬has the world come to…