Did anyone see??

[jets]

Watching highlights online- did anyone see the South Adams TD pass vs North Miami somewhere in the 3rd quarter (I believe ?)? 

Looked like a “hidden player” type deal where the player was “talking” with a Coach on the sideline- then when the ball was snapped took off down the sideline. 

Is there anything in the rule book addressing this situation?? 

Sorry for not providing a clip, I’m not that tech savvy.

[jets]

18 hours ago, US31 said:

Circa 2034, when Bobref finally sits down with Jets, to talk about the '25 SA vs NM game.....

HAHAHA - nicely played!! 

(And...maybe not too far from the truth!) 

[JustRules]

He's probably trying to come up with an eloquent answer that tries to explain what can happen or maybe what did happen in this situation.

Bottom line, this should have been called. My guess is the wing just missed him being there. He was focused on his keys on the line of scrimmage and the formation. He doesn't do a count of the offense so he wouldn't realize there were only 10 players in the middle. When that guy flashed in front of him, he has no idea where he came from so he can't assume what happened before that. He didn't intentionally see the player line up that way and choose to ignore an obvious foul. There is no conspiracy here against the receiving team. It's hard to be perfect. Sometimes calls get missed. Sometimes receivers run the wrong route. Sometimes QBs throw to the wrong spot. Sometimes defenders get burned. It's the nature of the game. No official wants to miss a call, especially one like this.

[Yuccaguy]

9 hours ago, JustRules said:

He's probably trying to come up with an eloquent answer that tries to explain what can happen or maybe what did happen in this situation.

Bottom line, this should have been called. My guess is the wing just missed him being there. He was focused on his keys on the line of scrimmage and the formation. He doesn't do a count of the offense so he wouldn't realize there were only 10 players in the middle. When that guy flashed in front of him, he has no idea where he came from so he can't assume what happened before that. He didn't intentionally see the player line up that way and choose to ignore an obvious foul. There is no conspiracy here against the receiving team. It's hard to be perfect. Sometimes calls get missed. Sometimes receivers run the wrong route. Sometimes QBs throw to the wrong spot. Sometimes defenders get burned. It's the nature of the game. No official wants to miss a call, especially one like this.

You got it..   information based along could create a MAJOR factor in decision-making that happens with future plans.  There are some things that you just can't get beyond with what done. 

Video says a lot with things.  Nuff said! 

[jets]

23 hours ago, JustRules said:

He's probably trying to come up with an eloquent answer that tries to explain what can happen or maybe what did happen in this situation.

Bottom line, this should have been called. My guess is the wing just missed him being there. He was focused on his keys on the line of scrimmage and the formation. He doesn't do a count of the offense so he wouldn't realize there were only 10 players in the middle. When that guy flashed in front of him, he has no idea where he came from so he can't assume what happened before that. He didn't intentionally see the player line up that way and choose to ignore an obvious foul. There is no conspiracy here against the receiving team. It's hard to be perfect. Sometimes calls get missed. Sometimes receivers run the wrong route. Sometimes QBs throw to the wrong spot. Sometimes defenders get burned. It's the nature of the game. No official wants to miss a call, especially one like this.

BINGO - this was all I was ever looking for from the start from our resident "evaluator" of officials - Mr. Bobref. 

(And don't get me wrong - I greatly appreciate Bob's help on this sight - I have asked him many of questions on different topics) 

However instead what I heard was "Talked with the Crew chief - LEGAL PLAY ALL THE WAY" (Bob's own words) ....yikes. Wait.a.second.

I understand we all miss stuff - make mistakes. The magnitude of this play (swung the game to South Adams...you could make an argument they don't win without this play as I believe it was the deciding score)...in a semi-state level game- I would hope the crew would come together after this play and get it right. 

And a lack of acknowledgment (instead a defense was mounted on behalf of the crew) of the mistake - especially from our top brass (Bobref) - I believe does a disservice to all officials. I get "wanting to protect your own" - but - acknowledging " yup- we screwed this one up big time" is also a chance for growth. 

I've been disappointed in that regard. 

 

[JustRules]

4 hours ago, jets said:

BINGO - this was all I was ever looking for from the start from our resident "evaluator" of officials - Mr. Bobref. 

(And don't get me wrong - I greatly appreciate Bob's help on this sight - I have asked him many of questions on different topics) 

However instead what I heard was "Talked with the Crew chief - LEGAL PLAY ALL THE WAY" (Bob's own words) ....yikes. Wait.a.second.

I understand we all miss stuff - make mistakes. The magnitude of this play (swung the game to South Adams...you could make an argument they don't win without this play as I believe it was the deciding score)...in a semi-state level game- I would hope the crew would come together after this play and get it right. 

And a lack of acknowledgment (instead a defense was mounted on behalf of the crew) of the mistake - especially from our top brass (Bobref) - I believe does a disservice to all officials. I get "wanting to protect your own" - but - acknowledging " yup- we screwed this one up big time" is also a chance for growth. 

I've been disappointed in that regard. 

 

The crew can only get together and get that right if anyone had knowledge of what that player did before the snap. If nobody was watching him specifically, they have nothing they could bring to a discussion. I have no idea what happened on the crew in this play, but just based on the video it was clear to see what that player did. What he did that truly caused it to be illegal was during the dead ball period. If the coach described the play to the crew before the game, I'm pretty sure he didn't include "one of our players will immediately run toward our sideline at the end of the previous play and will hide out next to me several yards behind the LOS."

[jets]

16 hours ago, JustRules said:

The crew can only get together and get that right if anyone had knowledge of what that player did before the snap. If nobody was watching him specifically, they have nothing they could bring to a discussion. I have no idea what happened on the crew in this play, but just based on the video it was clear to see what that player did. What he did that truly caused it to be illegal was during the dead ball period. If the coach described the play to the crew before the game, I'm pretty sure he didn't include "one of our players will immediately run toward our sideline at the end of the previous play and will hide out next to me several yards behind the LOS."

Whoa whoa whoa.....you're telling me - after a PLAYER dang near ran off from the sideline to catch a TD pass - that the ref crew can't get together and say "hey, what the heck happened there?? That player seemed to come from the sideline" 

Come on...a little common sense here - otherwise every freaking team in America will be running players from off the sideline to catch a pass. And then when flagged - will respond "But did you ACTUALLY see it???" 

Come on now...

[JustRules]

32 minutes ago, jets said:

Whoa whoa whoa.....you're telling me - after a PLAYER dang near ran off from the sideline to catch a TD pass - that the ref crew can't get together and say "hey, what the heck happened there?? That player seemed to come from the sideline" 

Come on...a little common sense here - otherwise every freaking team in America will be running players from off the sideline to catch a pass. And then when flagged - will respond "But did you ACTUALLY see it???" 

Come on now...

You can't call something you didn't see. As soon as you start making assumptions, you will be wrong 90% of the time. I had a game once where near the end of the play I hear a big crunch behind me (away from the end of the run). I turned and saw a big OL standing over a small DB and assumed he took a cheap shot on a guy that wasn't looking. But I didn't see it so I didn't flag it. I did tell the OL to be smart, and he may have gotten away with something. I got on the radio quickly to ask if anyone saw it and nobody did. When we got the video, I'm glad I didn't flag it! The DB came up to the OL and tried to hit him. The OL just put his arms up to absorb the hit and the defender went down hard. The OL did nothing wrong. Could have possibly flagged the DB for attempting a cheap hit, but he failed miserably. That would have been a terrible miss on my part.

Even with 8 officials in college there are sometimes things you don't see. And a coach who would try to do that would not get away with it often. This one was likely missed because of when he ran to the sideline. The officials have other responsibilities right after the play. Next time someone may catch it, and it will get flagged. There is a little luck involved sometimes in catching things like this. Try it sometime. It will be eye opening experience.

[jets]

1 hour ago, JustRules said:

You can't call something you didn't see. As soon as you start making assumptions, you will be wrong 90% of the time. I had a game once where near the end of the play I hear a big crunch behind me (away from the end of the run). I turned and saw a big OL standing over a small DB and assumed he took a cheap shot on a guy that wasn't looking. But I didn't see it so I didn't flag it. I did tell the OL to be smart, and he may have gotten away with something. I got on the radio quickly to ask if anyone saw it and nobody did. When we got the video, I'm glad I didn't flag it! The DB came up to the OL and tried to hit him. The OL just put his arms up to absorb the hit and the defender went down hard. The OL did nothing wrong. Could have possibly flagged the DB for attempting a cheap hit, but he failed miserably. That would have been a terrible miss on my part.

Even with 8 officials in college there are sometimes things you don't see. And a coach who would try to do that would not get away with it often. This one was likely missed because of when he ran to the sideline. The officials have other responsibilities right after the play. Next time someone may catch it, and it will get flagged. There is a little luck involved sometimes in catching things like this. Try it sometime. It will be eye opening experience.

How in the world - does the sideline official on the S.A. sideline - NOT see a player (in this instance #2) run streaking past him and not decipher that this was a "hidden player" scenario??? 

Man - you guys really do like defending your own. 

I get it now - no one (not Bobref, not JustRules, ) is EVER going to say "THIS OFFICIATING CREW BLEW IT BIGTIME" - cause obviously, they don't want it done back to them in return. I understand...I defend coaches all the time cause unless you've experienced it - you have no idea. 

This just seems so procedural and in SUCH a big spot...

Duke basketball is probably saying the same thing. 

[jets]

And lastly ....my gut screams to say "shame on the S.A. Coaches" for (probably) knowingly circumventing the rules....BUT - there is an ol saying "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" 

 

[JustRules]

On 4/2/2026 at 9:49 AM, jets said:

How in the world - does the sideline official on the S.A. sideline - NOT see a player (in this instance #2) run streaking past him and not decipher that this was a "hidden player" scenario??? 

Man - you guys really do like defending your own. 

I get it now - no one (not Bobref, not JustRules, ) is EVER going to say "THIS OFFICIATING CREW BLEW IT BIGTIME" - cause obviously, they don't want it done back to them in return. I understand...I defend coaches all the time cause unless you've experienced it - you have no idea. 

This just seems so procedural and in SUCH a big spot...

Duke basketball is probably saying the same thing. 

I never said they got it right. You are putting words in my mouth. And you have obviously never officiated anything in your life. Just because you saw him run by you at that point doesn't mean he was illegal when he started. You are making a huge assumptions on what happened before you saw him. If you make assumption on what may have happened before the action you saw, you are going to be wrong A LOT more than right in those instances. Based on video review, this crew obviously got this wrong. But they didn't intentionally see it and not call it. They just missed a screwy play and the offense got away with it. It sucks for the crew, but don't make it something it isn't.

I worked a game a couple years ago and the team often started two backs 10 yards behind the LOS and ran routes from there. It was odd, but the coach said it was to give them a running start before they got to the DBs. They weren't as close to the sideline as this guy, but they could have been there legally.

[jets]

13 hours ago, JustRules said:

I never said they got it right. You are putting words in my mouth. And you have obviously never officiated anything in your life. Just because you saw him run by you at that point doesn't mean he was illegal when he started. You are making a huge assumptions on what happened before you saw him. If you make assumption on what may have happened before the action you saw, you are going to be wrong A LOT more than right in those instances. Based on video review, this crew obviously got this wrong. But they didn't intentionally see it and not call it. They just missed a screwy play and the offense got away with it. It sucks for the crew, but don't make it something it isn't.

I worked a game a couple years ago and the team often started two backs 10 yards behind the LOS and ran routes from there. It was odd, but the coach said it was to give them a running start before they got to the DBs. They weren't as close to the sideline as this guy, but they could have been there legally.

OK - so procedurally - can you walk me through what the sideline official is looking at/doing in-between the end of the previous play, and before the ball is snapped?? Maybe his responsibilities take his eyes away from #2 (player number) and he doesn't notice him standing on the sideline by the coaches. He gives the "on" signal to the other sideline judge - to signify his receiver is in fact on the LOS. 

The ball is snapped - and here comes a player he has NO IDEA ABOUT...running by him and catching a TD pass?? Can he not decipher that that player (#2) had not legally entered the field of play??

What if - he actually steps up from off the sideline and #2 runs into him...can that be flagged as something??? 

 

[JustRules]

On 4/8/2026 at 1:01 PM, jets said:

OK - so procedurally - can you walk me through what the sideline official is looking at/doing in-between the end of the previous play, and before the ball is snapped?? Maybe his responsibilities take his eyes away from #2 (player number) and he doesn't notice him standing on the sideline by the coaches. He gives the "on" signal to the other sideline judge - to signify his receiver is in fact on the LOS. 

The ball is snapped - and here comes a player he has NO IDEA ABOUT...running by him and catching a TD pass?? Can he not decipher that that player (#2) had not legally entered the field of play??

What if - he actually steps up from off the sideline and #2 runs into him...can that be flagged as something??? 

 

That plus many other things he's doing depending on the play. He's going to be watching for any cheap stuff after the previous play. Making sure the U is spotting the ball in the correct spot. Making sure all players of A and B are not in the neutral zone. Making sure there are no more than 4 players in the backfield. If any back goes in motion making sure they don't move forward. Making sure no offensive player simulates action at the snap. If a player on the line of scrimmage shifts, they have to come to a complete stop for 1 second before the snap or be in motion at least 5 yards behind the LOS. Determining his initial keys for eligible receivers based on the formation. And several other things depending on the circumstances of the previous play and what is happening in this particular dead ball.

It's possible that player could have been in a legal position before the ball was snapped. If he came off the sideline and did that, it would absolutely be a foul. But an official has to see him do that. If he's not looking directly to his left, he has no idea where the player came from. He could have possibly been in a legal position and the defense just never covered him.

This may be hard for you to accept, but 5 officials can't watch all 22 players at the same time. The R and U are counting the offense. I assume they only counted 10 because if they had seen this guy, they would have raised a red flag. But since they didn't see where he started, the can't assume he was illegal.  You will probably never understand this if you have never actually officiated a game, so I'm not sure any explanation is going to make sense to you. I'm fine with that because I know how calls like this can be mixed. It's not necessarily a sign of incompetence or a sign of intentionally missing a call or not knowing the rules. You sometimes just don't see enough of something to get the call right. Football is an imperfect game. The coach tried something, and he got away with it.

[gonzoron]

On 4/1/2026 at 10:18 AM, jets said:

I greatly appreciate Bob's help on this sight

*site*

[jets]

On 4/10/2026 at 9:40 PM, JustRules said:

That plus many other things he's doing depending on the play. He's going to be watching for any cheap stuff after the previous play. Making sure the U is spotting the ball in the correct spot. Making sure all players of A and B are not in the neutral zone. Making sure there are no more than 4 players in the backfield. If any back goes in motion making sure they don't move forward. Making sure no offensive player simulates action at the snap. If a player on the line of scrimmage shifts, they have to come to a complete stop for 1 second before the snap or be in motion at least 5 yards behind the LOS. Determining his initial keys for eligible receivers based on the formation. And several other things depending on the circumstances of the previous play and what is happening in this particular dead ball.

It's possible that player could have been in a legal position before the ball was snapped. If he came off the sideline and did that, it would absolutely be a foul. But an official has to see him do that. If he's not looking directly to his left, he has no idea where the player came from. He could have possibly been in a legal position and the defense just never covered him.

This may be hard for you to accept, but 5 officials can't watch all 22 players at the same time. The R and U are counting the offense. I assume they only counted 10 because if they had seen this guy, they would have raised a red flag. But since they didn't see where he started, the can't assume he was illegal.  You will probably never understand this if you have never actually officiated a game, so I'm not sure any explanation is going to make sense to you. I'm fine with that because I know how calls like this can be mixed. It's not necessarily a sign of incompetence or a sign of intentionally missing a call or not knowing the rules. You sometimes just don't see enough of something to get the call right. Football is an imperfect game. The coach tried something, and he got away with it.

I really appreciate your responses, professionalism, and attempts to explain the situation. 

It was a rules violation (as you have pointed out) - it was missed- things happen. As a former player, and now Coach - I totally understand that. No one is perfect. 

What has driven my continued questioning was our official evaluator (Bobref) for the State officials seems to think there was no fault of the officials and/or play in question. His original and ONLY reply of substance on the matter was "Talked to the crew chief - legal play all the way."

Um...NO IT WAS NOT. 

That's all I was ever looking for. An acknowledgement (from Bob) that this was in fact an ILLEGAL play that was just missed by the crew.  

 

[US31]

3 hours ago, jets said:

this was in fact an ILLEGAL play that was just missed by the crew.  

14 words that would have ended this discussion in two posts.

[Impartial_Observer]

6 hours ago, US31 said:

14 words that would have ended this discussion in two posts.

I somehow doubt that. 

[jets]

18 hours ago, US31 said:

14 words that would have ended this discussion in two posts.

Amen....

12 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I somehow doubt that. 

Actually - I had no dog in this fight (in terms of the game) - my initial inquiry was coming from an angle of a Coach and how such a play could be allowed as it was obviously illegal. AND instead of an acknowledgement from our observer of State officials - we got loads and loads of excuses and defenses....or worse yet, silence. 

I do appreciate those that did step up and give at least somewhat of an explanation. 

[jets]

On 4/10/2026 at 9:40 PM, JustRules said:

That plus many other things he's doing depending on the play. He's going to be watching for any cheap stuff after the previous play. Making sure the U is spotting the ball in the correct spot. Making sure all players of A and B are not in the neutral zone. Making sure there are no more than 4 players in the backfield. If any back goes in motion making sure they don't move forward. Making sure no offensive player simulates action at the snap. If a player on the line of scrimmage shifts, they have to come to a complete stop for 1 second before the snap or be in motion at least 5 yards behind the LOS. Determining his initial keys for eligible receivers based on the formation. And several other things depending on the circumstances of the previous play and what is happening in this particular dead ball.

It's possible that player could have been in a legal position before the ball was snapped. If he came off the sideline and did that, it would absolutely be a foul. But an official has to see him do that. If he's not looking directly to his left, he has no idea where the player came from. He could have possibly been in a legal position and the defense just never covered him.

This may be hard for you to accept, but 5 officials can't watch all 22 players at the same time. The R and U are counting the offense. I assume they only counted 10 because if they had seen this guy, they would have raised a red flag. But since they didn't see where he started, the can't assume he was illegal.  You will probably never understand this if you have never actually officiated a game, so I'm not sure any explanation is going to make sense to you. I'm fine with that because I know how calls like this can be mixed. It's not necessarily a sign of incompetence or a sign of intentionally missing a call or not knowing the rules. You sometimes just don't see enough of something to get the call right. Football is an imperfect game. The coach tried something, and he got away with it.

After all this back and forth - I actually went back and watched the play - and it is even more egregious of a miscall than I originally thought. Based on the livestream - it appears you can CLEARLY see the side judge watching #2 walk towards his coaches pre-snap. (Can't believe I missed this in the original viewing). So all this mumbo-jumbo about not seeing and other responsibilities is just that...

This changes the dynamics of it being just a "missed call" to an official not clearly understanding the rule set....or being told by his white hat not to throw the flag (so the white hat not understanding the rules) 

 

[JustRules]

14 hours ago, jets said:

After all this back and forth - I actually went back and watched the play - and it is even more egregious of a miscall than I originally thought. Based on the livestream - it appears you can CLEARLY see the side judge watching #2 walk towards his coaches pre-snap. (Can't believe I missed this in the original viewing). So all this mumbo-jumbo about not seeing and other responsibilities is just that...

This changes the dynamics of it being just a "missed call" to an official not clearly understanding the rule set....or being told by his white hat not to throw the flag (so the white hat not understanding the rules) 

 

My take on watching that is he may have seen that player heading that way, but made the assumption he was coming out. Unless he paid special attention to the number, he likely has no idea it's the same guy who caught the pass. It's also very possible he wasn't watching that player closely. He really had no reason to at that point. It seems obvious to us knowing how this play ended, but I bet if you watched this live, you never noticed that player leaving immediately after the play was over. I bet you also wouldn't notice him standing there. It's so much easier to see when you watch the broadcast when you know the outcome of the play and tracked the guy backward who caught the pass.

You are making a lot of assumptions on what this official did see and his rules knowledge. This referee would NOT tell any member of his crew to not call this if he saw it. He just didn't see what this player did. Big miss, and I would bet he's not happy with missing it once he saw the video.

If I'm reading this topic correctly, Bobref's comments were based on what the referee knew shortly after the game before either official had seen the video. I don't know why he hasn't shared his observations since he's usually very open and honest about things like this.

[jets]

6 hours ago, JustRules said:

My take on watching that is he may have seen that player heading that way, but made the assumption he was coming out. Unless he paid special attention to the number, he likely has no idea it's the same guy who caught the pass. It's also very possible he wasn't watching that player closely. He really had no reason to at that point. It seems obvious to us knowing how this play ended, but I bet if you watched this live, you never noticed that player leaving immediately after the play was over. I bet you also wouldn't notice him standing there. It's so much easier to see when you watch the broadcast when you know the outcome of the play and tracked the guy backward who caught the pass.

You are making a lot of assumptions on what this official did see and his rules knowledge. This referee would NOT tell any member of his crew to not call this if he saw it. He just didn't see what this player did. Big miss, and I would bet he's not happy with missing it once he saw the video.

If I'm reading this topic correctly, Bobref's comments were based on what the referee knew shortly after the game before either official had seen the video. I don't know why he hasn't shared his observations since he's usually very open and honest about things like this.

 

On 11/21/2025 at 8:14 AM, Bobref said:

Hudl video doesn’t show the dead ball interval, which is important to a complete understanding of the play. So, I spoke with the crew chief. This formation was brought up by the coach in the pregame conference. The receiver was inside the numbers after the ball was marked ready for play. He then moved out. It was not a part of the substitution process, so there was no impermissible deception. Legal play all the way.

 

[jets]

32 minutes ago, jets said:

 

 

[JustRules]

What coaches tell you in pregame and how the play is actually run is very different. The line you quoted from Bobref said the coach shared the player would be inside the numbers at the RFP. Watching the broadcast you can see that was clearly not the case. If he had described it as it happened, he would have said, I'm going to run one of my players toward the sideline as soon as the play is over so nobody sees him. He's going to stop 10 yards behind the LOS and face the sideline as if he's talking to coaches. Coaches on the other side will think he's off the field and not participating. Then at the snap, he's going to turn and take off up the field for a wide open fake punt. We plan to throw him the ball.

I wasn't there, but I can guarantee you that's not what he described. Remember Bobref had only seen the Hudl play and talked with the official when he wrote that first comment. The referee likely hadn't seen the broadcast video yet so he was only sharing what the coach had told him. The Hudl video often start until just before the snap so it's not going to help on where the player came from or where he was at the RFP.

There is no conspiracy or gotcha moment here. The crew just plain missed it because they didn't see this player until after the ball was snapped. There is nothing more to it.

[jets]

4 hours ago, JustRules said:

What coaches tell you in pregame and how the play is actually run is very different. The line you quoted from Bobref said the coach shared the player would be inside the numbers at the RFP. Watching the broadcast you can see that was clearly not the case. If he had described it as it happened, he would have said, I'm going to run one of my players toward the sideline as soon as the play is over so nobody sees him. He's going to stop 10 yards behind the LOS and face the sideline as if he's talking to coaches. Coaches on the other side will think he's off the field and not participating. Then at the snap, he's going to turn and take off up the field for a wide open fake punt. We plan to throw him the ball.

I wasn't there, but I can guarantee you that's not what he described. Remember Bobref had only seen the Hudl play and talked with the official when he wrote that first comment. The referee likely hadn't seen the broadcast video yet so he was only sharing what the coach had told him. The Hudl video often start until just before the snap so it's not going to help on where the player came from or where he was at the RFP.

There is no conspiracy or gotcha moment here. The crew just plain missed it because they didn't see this player until after the ball was snapped. There is nothing more to it.

- It wasn't a fake punt at all - it was a 2nd down play. 

- I think 2 things can be true at the same time . #1 - I think that the South Adams coaches pulled one over on the officiating crew - and I think I fall into the "shame on you" camp in regards to the coaching staff. They had to have known they LIED to the officiating staff in order to pull this off. 

                                                                                #2. I wholeheartly think the side judge watches #2 (the player) walking, what he thinks, is off the field. Then the snap happens, #2 runs down the sideline, and it is a TD. So - if I think that player checked out of the game -that has to be a penalty! Or...if I'm not sure if he did, he most certainly is a "hidden player" scenario, and it is a flag. 

I am dissapointed in the crew/officiating staff - with a TRIP TO THE STATE FINALS ON THE LINE - they wouldn't get together and get this one right. 

 

 

[Impartial_Observer]

On 4/13/2026 at 8:03 PM, Impartial_Observer said:

I somehow doubt that. 

See everyone thought this was sarcasm, the SEVEN more beatings of this poor horse that I thought was already buried would prove my original point, I some doubt it would have ended quickly. 

[jets]

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

See everyone thought this was sarcasm, the SEVEN more beatings of this poor horse that I thought was already buried would prove my original point, I some doubt it would have ended quickly. 

Congratulations?