OK - I'm just going to do it - SEEDING!

[oldtimeqb]

1 minute ago, oldtimeqb said:

You and @Footballking16 are arguing a point that no one has claimed to be true. @Titan32 said 

The only person that even tried to compare Week 2 vs. a sectional game was FootballKing.  His point was a regular season game in Indiana vs a regular season game in Illinois or Ohio with a qualifying system.  Personally, I do not like the "all-in" format for our football tournament. (It really shouldn't be called a playoff, to be honest.) 

I do agree with Titan32's main premise - the current regular season DOES mean something.  If someone thinks it doesn't, then I am afraid they are missing out on the big picture of HS football.  

PS - I will take 10,000 seeding/qualification/neutral site thread discussions over a COVID related one any day!  LOL

I hope everyone is doing well and we have a successful tournament! 

[Footballking16]

2 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

You and @Footballking16 are arguing a point that no one has claimed to be true. @Titan32 said 

The only person that even tried to compare Week 2 vs. a sectional game was FootballKing.  His point was a regular season game in Indiana vs a regular season game in Illinois or Ohio with a qualifying system.  Personally, I do not like the "all-in" format for our football tournament. (It really shouldn't be called a playoff, to be honest.) 

I do agree with Titan32's main premise - the current regular season DOES mean something.  If someone thinks it doesn't, then I am afraid they are missing out on the big picture of HS football.  

In regards to the postseason, the regular season doesn’t mean a thing. It doesn’t. You’re automatically in the tournament and your draw is based on a ping pong ball. That cannot be disputed. In every sport, at every level, postseason inclusion/seeding/draw is based on regular season performance. It’s not unique, it’s nonsense.

[region]

Why not just separate the top 2 and ping pong the remaining spots? Best of both.

[Titan32]

On 10/9/2020 at 4:01 PM, Footballking16 said:

Again you're missing the point. In a qualification based system, the level of play rises naturally. Would you disagree with me that a sectional game and a week 2 game are on the same level of intensity?

That's semi-rhetorical but you get my point. 

We are not talking about post season play here, of course play off games mean more when they might be the last game you ever play.  Some believe there is no relevance to regular season games unless there is a playoff qualification system, to each their own, but even if one doesn't care about conference implications...down here in SWI every Friday is the superbowl.  I am sorry if some parts of the state don't get to experience that.  There is nothing you could have done last night in SWI with regard to qualification to change last nights Castle vs Jasper or Memorial vs North or even Gibson Southern vs Princeton.  All of these games had specific undertones, nuances, sub plots and meanings...nothing about qualification could have impacted that.

Make your blow-out arguments and arguments regarding impending qualification after seeding begins....but I will never buy the BS about our games needing some sort of adrenaline boost.  It's just not true.

[Footballking16]

12 hours ago, Titan32 said:

We are not talking about post season play here, of course play off games mean more when they might be the last game you ever play.  Some believe there is no relevance to regular season games unless there is a playoff qualification system, to each their own, but even if one doesn't care about conference implications...down here in SWI every Friday is the superbowl.  I am sorry if some parts of the state don't get to experience that.  There is nothing you could have done last night in SWI with regard to qualification to change last nights Castle vs Jasper or Memorial vs North or even Gibson Southern vs Princeton.  All of these games had specific undertones, nuances, sub plots and meanings...nothing about qualification could have impacted that.

Make your blow-out arguments and arguments regarding impending qualification after seeding begins....but I will never buy the BS about our games needing some sort of adrenaline boost.  It's just not true.

Then why does every single state, in every sport at every level have a qualification format? Because the regular season is supposed to mean something. Our current format renders the regular season all for not. You cannot tell me otherwise. 
 

This “rah-rah, Superbowl, play every game like it’s your last” is absolute BS. Win or lose in week 7, you’re automatically in the postseason and your draw is determined by a ping pong ball. You want to talk about undertones and sub-plots, how about a postseason berth on the line? No one is saying the regular season isn’t exciting, but the outcomes of all nine games literally mean nothing. They are glorified exhibition games.

[jets]

Seeding DOES NOT have to equal a “qualification”’format!!! 

Seeding would just make for a better tourney format- plain and simple. And yes, it will at least give SOME meaning to the regular season. 

“Oh- there is going to be a bunch of first round blowouts between the 1v8 and 2v7”

So what?? There are blowouts every week. 

You’d still have PLENTY of competitive match-ups round one

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, jets said:

Seeding DOES NOT have to equal a “qualification”’format!!! 

Seeding would just make for a better tourney format- plain and simple. And yes, it will at least give SOME meaning to the regular season. 

“Oh- there is going to be a bunch of first round blowouts between the 1v8 and 2v7”

So what?? There are blowouts every week. 

You’d still have PLENTY of competitive match-ups round one

You can still seed and alleviate the obvious blowouts in round 1; add a tenth game and eliminate half the field using some sort of rating formula that computes W-L record, SOS, opponent SOS, opponent W-L. It’s so simple that literally EVERY other state in the union has figured it out.

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

You can still seed and alleviate the obvious blowouts in round 1; add a tenth game and eliminate half the field using some sort of rating formula that computes W-L record, SOS, opponent SOS, opponent W-L. It’s so simple that literally EVERY other state in the union has figured it out.

From your lips to the Commissioner’s ear.

[hhpatriot04]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

You can still seed and alleviate the obvious blowouts in round 1; add a tenth game and eliminate half the field using some sort of rating formula that computes W-L record, SOS, opponent SOS, opponent W-L. It’s so simple that literally EVERY other state in the union has figured it out.

Just eliminate the scrimmage and add in a bye week (5A & 6A aren't allowed to use it Week 9 to eliminate the possibility of back-to-back bye weeks, or make it so teams can choose whether to play 9 or 10 games... As we found out this year, it's not the end of the world if all the teams in the tournament haven't played nine games.

I'm not sold on the 10th game or whatnot. TW once ran the numbers and a team outside of Sagarin's Top 32 after Week 9 has NEVER won a state championship -- including the Northwood, Mater Dei, FW Luers teams which had 2 or 3 wins heading into the tournament. Things are more complicated now by the evilness and seeming spread of closed conferences (which would definitely complicate any kind of seeding or playoffs vs. an all-in tournament).

[Footballking16]

14 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Just eliminate the scrimmage and add in a bye week (5A & 6A aren't allowed to use it Week 9 to eliminate the possibility of back-to-back bye weeks, or make it so teams can choose whether to play 9 or 10 games... As we found out this year, it's not the end of the world if all the teams in the tournament haven't played nine games.

I'm not sold on the 10th game or whatnot. TW once ran the numbers and a team outside of Sagarin's Top 32 after Week 9 has NEVER won a state championship -- including the Northwood, Mater Dei, FW Luers teams which had 2 or 3 wins heading into the tournament. Things are more complicated now by the evilness and seeming spread of closed conferences (which would definitely complicate any kind of seeding or playoffs vs. an all-in tournament).

There was a 4-5 year period where I tracked playoff matchups between top half Sagarin teams and bottom half Sagarin rated teams. The data was staggering and only furthers the need for a qualification system. 

[Bobref]

49 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

I'm not sold on the 10th game or whatnot. TW once ran the numbers and a team outside of Sagarin's Top 32 after Week 9 has NEVER won a state championship -- including the Northwood, Mater Dei, FW Luers teams which had 2 or 3 wins heading into the tournament. Things are more complicated now by the evilness and seeming spread of closed conferences (which would definitely complicate any kind of seeding or playoffs vs. an all-in tournament).

This.

Cinderella is a myth. A convenient excuse not to take a hard look at whether we could make Indiana football better by having a qualification format.

[Titan32]

6 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

the outcomes of all nine games literally mean nothing. They are glorified exhibition games.

Nope....this part of the argument is total, complete, unadulterated BS.

I would like to see #1 and #2 on opposite sides of the sectional bracket...if blowouts are the issue let 1 play 3, 2 play 4 and so on....as opposed to 1 vs 8, 2 vs 7.

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

Nope....this part of the argument is total, complete, unadulterated BS.

Literally meaningless. How else does an 0-9 team make the playoffs? How does an undefeated conference champion play a road game in the first round of the playoffs? You could theoretically schedule 9 bye weeks and still make the postseason. The outcomes of the first nine weeks have literal zero meaning. You can’t argue otherwise. 

[Plymouthfan91]

7 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

There was a 4-5 year period where I tracked playoff matchups between top half Sagarin teams and bottom half Sagarin rated teams. The data was staggering and only furthers the need for a qualification system. 

What did you find out?  

[Plymouthfan91]

23 hours ago, Titan32 said:

We are not talking about post season play here, of course play off games mean more when they might be the last game you ever play.  Some believe there is no relevance to regular season games unless there is a playoff qualification system, to each their own, but even if one doesn't care about conference implications...down here in SWI every Friday is the superbowl.  I am sorry if some parts of the state don't get to experience that.  There is nothing you could have done last night in SWI with regard to qualification to change last nights Castle vs Jasper or Memorial vs North or even Gibson Southern vs Princeton.  All of these games had specific undertones, nuances, sub plots and meanings...nothing about qualification could have impacted that.

Make your blow-out arguments and arguments regarding impending qualification after seeding begins....but I will never buy the BS about our games needing some sort of adrenaline boost.  It's just not true.

I do agree that the games don't need the adrenaline boost.  But instead of an all-in format let's take the teams that don't qualify and give them one more game.  Maybe a game against another 0-9 team so one of them can get a win.  If they were in the tourney they both would finish without a win.  Plus one less playoff game for the teams in the playoffs so they don't get hurt in a meaningless blowout.  Less knocks on the head means less chance of concussion.

[hhpatriot04]

4 hours ago, Plymouthfan91 said:

What did you find out?  

Teams outside of the Top 32 have never won a state championship and Sagarin correctly predicts around 78% of winners consistently

[Footballking16]

4 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Teams outside of the Top 32 have never won a state championship and Sagarin correctly predicts around 78% of winners consistently

Taking it a step further, teams outside the top 32 upsetting a team inside the top 32 happen at an extremely low rate. Talking 2-3 times in any given year. Teams outside the top 32 that advance, advance by virtue of playing another team outside the top 32. 
 

The Cinderella myth that comes with the blind draw is a total farce. Upsets and underdog runs to Indy simply don’t exist in this format.

[Bobref]

11 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Taking it a step further, teams outside the top 32 upsetting a team inside the top 32 happen at an extremely low rate. Talking 2-3 times in any given year. Teams outside the top 32 that advance, advance by virtue of playing another team outside the top 32. 
 

The Cinderella myth that comes with the blind draw is a total farce. Upsets and underdog runs to Indy simply don’t exist in this format.

It’s like we were twins separated at birth.

[Bobref]

13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Taking it a step further, teams outside the top 32 upsetting a team inside the top 32 happen at an extremely low rate. Talking 2-3 times in any given year. Teams outside the top 32 that advance, advance by virtue of playing another team outside the top 32. 
 

The Cinderella myth that comes with the blind draw is a total farce. Upsets and underdog runs to Indy simply don’t exist in this format.

Dare I invoke the name Tim Adams? It is historical fact that it took several years to do it, but before his premature demise, TA came around to this way of thinking, and embraced the concept of a qualification format.