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Did the HCC and the Mid State make big mistakes when adding FC and PM?


Guest DT
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I must confess, I was quite surprised when I read the news that PM had been accepted into the Mid State Conference, and even moreso when news came that fellow south sider Franklin Central was joing arms with the Hoosier Crossroads

My first thoughts in both circumstances?

The admins at both PM and FC must have put quite the sell job on their suitors to have come away with such a huge prize.

Both schools are firmly entrenched in the cellars of their new conference homes, and prospects for escape and upward movement look dim for the foreseeable future.

PM is a 6A school that looks to be playing football at a 3A level.  The Mid State is one of the strongest and most balanced football conferences in the state.  What could they possibly have thought that Perry could bring to the table?  Was it a move to strengthen the leagues competitive profile in other sports like wrestling, etc?  If the move to eight schools was so important to the Mid State, might New Pal, Col North, Col East or Mt Vernon have been better choices, better competitive fits?  Or perhaps a dose of PP to balance the conference with the addition of a Chatard or a Roncalli?  An argument can be made that Perry Meridian might be the worst football  coaching job in the state, at any level or classification.  I dont see how they rise in this conference, now or in the future.

FC has similar problems in the HCC.  It just seems like an odd fit.  The Flashes have no rivals in the HCC, and none look to be developing over the near short term.  The HC is on an upward trajectory and in a position of strength to attract some of the very best programs in the state, including Center Grove, Carmel, Cathedral.   Why settle for old money like Franklin Central?  It does neither entity any good.  FC athletics will suffer long term due to lack of compoetitiveness, and the HCC is slightly weakened as FC reduces its over stregth and Sagarin profiles.

Odd moves indeed

What are your thoughts?

 

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I'm not sure the conferences made mistakes as much as the schools themselves by going into leagues that are not really good fits football-wise. 

The HCC and Mid-State were both seven-team conferences. Each needed another team to balance it out - eight teams is the perfect number for a conference. 

In both cases, Conference Indiana - despite the horrendous travel - seemed to be a really good cultural and athletic fit. PM/Southport/FC held down the southside of Indy. Columbus & Bloomington are not terrible drives for either down I-65. The only real problem with CI is the travel to Terre Haute. While FC is rapidly changing with new neighborhoods popping up all over Franklin Township, it feels like a strange fit as a township school in a league full of north/west side suburban schools. While the Mid-State has one township school in Decatur Central, its bread-and-butter is mid-sized community schools, not a 6A school in a two-school district. 

However, remember there are more sports than football. Franklin Central has a really solid cross country/track program (the HCC is a *powerhouse* in CC) and more than holds its own in basketball - where the HCC is one of the top leagues in the state. Perry Meridian has a great wrestling program that fits well in the Mid-State with Franklin (which also has one of the stronger wrestling programs in the state). While both feel like really strange fits in their conferences, there are individual programs that fit really well. 

As far as some of the other leagues ... New Palestine is a mid-sized 4A school that punches above its weight in football but is already in a league with its area rivals. MV doesn't really fit in the Mid-State geographically and doesn't really fit in the HCC in terms of school size yet ... and is also already in a league with its two longest-standing, biggest rivals in New Palestine and Pendleton Heights. Neither one is looking to change conferences right now. Columbus East dominates the Hoosier Hills in football, but fits the profile of that league very well in other sports. It, too, may not be looking to move (and would probably fit better in Conference Indiana, but I believe the BCSC board has tried to keep the two Columbus schools in different conferences to tone down the competition between the two). 

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5 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

I'm not sure the conferences made mistakes as much as the schools themselves by going into leagues that are not really good fits football-wise. 

The HCC and Mid-State were both seven-team conferences. Each needed another team to balance it out - eight teams is the perfect number for a conference. 

In both cases, Conference Indiana - despite the horrendous travel - seemed to be a really good cultural and athletic fit. PM/Southport/FC held down the southside of Indy. Columbus & Bloomington are not terrible drives for either down I-65. The only real problem with CI is the travel to Terre Haute. While FC is rapidly changing with new neighborhoods popping up all over Franklin Township, it feels like a strange fit as a township school in a league full of north/west side suburban schools. While the Mid-State has one township school in Decatur Central, its bread-and-butter is mid-sized community schools, not a 6A school in a two-school district. 

However, remember there are more sports than football. Franklin Central has a really solid cross country/track program (the HCC is a *powerhouse* in CC) and more than holds its own in basketball - where the HCC is one of the top leagues in the state. Perry Meridian has a great wrestling program that fits well in the Mid-State with Franklin (which also has one of the stronger wrestling programs in the state). While both feel like really strange fits in their conferences, there are individual programs that fit really well. 

It would have been interesting if both The MId State and the HCC had put up their open 8 spots for public bid.  That would have been one heck of a  competition.  

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Just now, DT said:

It would have been interesting if both The MId State and the HCC had put up their open 8 spots for public bid.  That would have been one heck of a  competition.  

I could see the following schools bidding for the Mid State slot :

CN

CE

NP

MT V

BS

BN

PM

RON

CHA

GUE

SEY

GC

SP

Shelby

Bidders for the HCC 8 slot :

KOK

CG

CAR

LN

CATH

LJ

RONC

CN

 

 

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2 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

I know for a fact NP, G-C and MV are not looking for another conference right now. 

If invited to apply for a spot in the Mid State, how would they respond?

We trust your insider judgment.

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A lot more goes into joining a conference than just football. Also  @DT, you crack me up because you always state you dislike talking about new conferences, but yet you always start these threads haha. It is all good though. Conference realignment is intriguing. And even if Franklin Central is an outlier to the HCC, I still think it works. Gives HCC 8 teams with a school that is similar in size. I have no problem in it.

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42 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

A lot more goes into joining a conference than just football. Also  @DT, you crack me up because you always state you dislike talking about new conferences, but yet you always start these threads haha. It is all good though. Conference realignment is intriguing. And even if Franklin Central is an outlier to the HCC, I still think it works. Gives HCC 8 teams with a school that is similar in size. I have no problem in it.

I see a lot of threads about conf realighnemnt that make no sense competitively or geographically.  I generally will comment on those threads and express my opinions wether positive or negative.

 

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I am fine with the HCC’s decision to add Franklin Central to their conference. They were pretty competitive in basketball last year and although they came in last in baseball in 2018-2019, they still had 4 wins in the HCC which is the states premier baseball conference. Football we saw them go winless in conference this season but they did upset Zionsville and HSE the season before while also getting victories against Roncalli, Decatur Central and Columbus North. I can’t really ever see them finishing top 5 in the conference in football but the other teams still have to show up to beat the flashes, they’re not a terrible program. From a football standpoint there are definitely more intriguing options but a lot of those are schools not in the Indy area. With all Indy schools it makes sense to me on why they added FC, even if they will never be a power in any of the 3 main sports.

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2 hours ago, Bears62 said:

I am fine with the HCC’s decision to add Franklin Central to their conference. They were pretty competitive in basketball last year and although they came in last in baseball in 2018-2019, they still had 4 wins in the HCC which is the states premier baseball conference. Football we saw them go winless in conference this season but they did upset Zionsville and HSE the season before while also getting victories against Roncalli, Decatur Central and Columbus North. I can’t really ever see them finishing top 5 in the conference in football but the other teams still have to show up to beat the flashes, they’re not a terrible program. From a football standpoint there are definitely more intriguing options but a lot of those are schools not in the Indy area. With all Indy schools it makes sense to me on why they added FC, even if they will never be a power in any of the 3 main sports.

every ship needs ballast

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5 hours ago, DT said:

If invited to apply for a spot in the Mid State, how would they respond?

We trust your insider judgment.

They would say "we're pretty happy in the Hoosier Heritage Conference right now" and politely decline. 

The Mid-State had been at 7 teams for a while. They wouldn't have been turned away had they shown interest. 

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6 hours ago, DT said:

An argument can be made that Perry Meridian might be the worst football  coaching job in the state, at any level or classification.  I dont see how they rise in this conference, now or in the future.

 

I wonder how many people told Pat Mallory the same thing when he took over at Lawrence North.

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2 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

@DT

@crimsonace1

Columbus East applied for membership to the Mid State Conference as did Bloomington North. Ultimately, Perry Meridian was chosen because it was centrally located.

http://www.dailyjournal.net/2018/06/25/the_price_of_adding_to_the_midstate_conference/

Interesting that BN wanted to separate from BS and the Hoosier Hills

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47 minutes ago, DT said:

Interesting that BN wanted to separate from BS and the Hoosier Hills

My guess is that it had to do with Conference Indiana’s instability. What once was a ten team conference 15 years ago is now down to six, and only four of the current six teams were apart of that ten team league. I’m guessing it was self-preservation mode.

Edited by Frozen Tundra
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14 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

 

 

Columbus East applied for membership to the Mid State Conference as did Bloomington North. Ultimately, Perry Meridian was chosen because it was centrally located.

http://www.dailyjournal.net/2018/06/25/the_price_of_adding_to_the_midstate_conference/

Again, I am more amazed that superintendents and school boards would allow these schools to apply. Why would MCCSC allow North to put South in a potential bind? Why would BCSC allow East to apply, when North could apply and save the School Corporation money on fuel expenditures?

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1 hour ago, DanteEstonia said:

Again, I am more amazed that superintendents and school boards would allow these schools to apply. Why would MCCSC allow North to put South in a potential bind? Why would BCSC allow East to apply, when North could apply and save the School Corporation money on fuel expenditures?

Bloomington schools might want some separation. 

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3 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

Again, I am more amazed that superintendents and school boards would allow these schools to apply. Why would MCCSC allow North to put South in a potential bind? Why would BCSC allow East to apply, when North could apply and save the School Corporation money on fuel expenditures?

1. Columbus North didn’t want to apply. 
2. Columbus East would’ve saved the school corporation a little bit of money by joining. The average HHC trip (including Madison) from East is 49.9 miles. The average MSC trip (excluding Perry Meridian) from East is 42.8 miles.

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At some point Conference Indiana has got to give and a potential new conference might have to be formed. CN, Bloomingtons, and Southport need to have something in mind. Terre Hautes will be tough just because of their size and their location to other schools.

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