Taking a knee

[Impartial_Observer]

We had an odd situation Friday night. A is behind by a large margin 1/10 on their own 5, with 50ish seconds to go in the half. A’s coach makes it known they are taking a knee. A lines up in victory (?) formation, DL doesn’t even get in a stance, A snaps, QB immediately goes down to a knee. B’s coach calls TO. He claims he didn’t know they were taking a knee and is upset no one told him. Personally I thought it was pretty obvious to everyone in the stadium they were taking a knee. A’s coach is even more upset that we didn’t let A’s coach know. Even bringing it up in a post game email exchange. 
 

Our philosophy has ALWAYS been and we’ve been told in training not to alert anyone as to A taking a knee. We don’t adjust our mechanics, other than the U paying particular attention to the snapper. 
 

Thoughts from coaches and officials? 

[Yuccaguy]

25 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

We had an odd situation Friday night. A is behind by a large margin 1/10 on their own 5, with 50ish seconds to go in the half. A’s coach makes it known they are taking a knee. A lines up in victory (?) formation, DL doesn’t even get in a stance, A snaps, QB immediately goes down to a knee. B’s coach calls TO. He claims he didn’t know they were taking a knee and is upset no one told him. Personally I thought it was pretty obvious to everyone in the stadium they were taking a knee. A’s coach is even more upset that we didn’t let A’s coach know. Even bringing it up in a post game email exchange. 
 

Our philosophy has ALWAYS been and we’ve been told in training not to alert anyone as to A taking a knee. We don’t adjust our mechanics, other than the U paying particular attention to the snapper. 
 

Thoughts from coaches and officials? 

We actually move up (R and U) to put ourselves in harm's way, thereby giving a VERY OBVIOUS signal that the "victory formation" is in effect.  Of course we absolutely WARN/ALERT both both teams, that anything other than taking a knee, or rushing the line/QB will not be allowed.  The game is done!!!

[miner_35]

57 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

We had an odd situation Friday night. A is behind by a large margin 1/10 on their own 5, with 50ish seconds to go in the half. A’s coach makes it known they are taking a knee. A lines up in victory (?) formation, DL doesn’t even get in a stance, A snaps, QB immediately goes down to a knee. B’s coach calls TO. He claims he didn’t know they were taking a knee and is upset no one told him. Personally I thought it was pretty obvious to everyone in the stadium they were taking a knee. A’s coach is even more upset that we didn’t let A’s coach know. Even bringing it up in a post game email exchange. 
 

Our philosophy has ALWAYS been and we’ve been told in training not to alert anyone as to A taking a knee. We don’t adjust our mechanics, other than the U paying particular attention to the snapper. 
 

Thoughts from coaches and officials? 

I will usually ask if they are taking a knee and will inform both the opposing players and coach. I also inform the opposing team that the ball can be recovered if a fumble takes place. I then move up and make sure nothing happens.

[oldtimeqb]

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

with 50ish seconds to go in the half.

Quick question. Is this a legal play in HS?  I have seen a high school team run this before at the end of the first half, albeit almost a decade ago.  I don't know if it is allowable under current rules. 

Assuming you mean first half, this does change things a bit IMO.  As long as the above play is legal. 

  

[JustRules]

If A informs us they are taking a knee I will tell B players "they plan to take a knee but the ball is still live. If they muff or fumble the ball is live and can be recovered." I also remind the A linemen to be ready to block. If it's the second half and the game is not in doubt I'll get into the middle to make sure nothing happens. There is no rule support to flag the offense for saying they are taking a knee and then running a play. The college play above would be legal, but I would expect the offense never told anyone they were taking a knee. They just made it appear they were taking a knee. B needs to be ready to defend the play.

[Bobref]

Officials, please review the Manual, p. 36. It has a section on dealing with “Victory” formation.

[JustRules]

9 hours ago, Bobref said:

Officials, please review the Manual, p. 36. It has a section on dealing with “Victory” formation.

Good stuff. That is essentially what we do. If a team doesn't indicate if they are taking a knee at the end of the first half or within 8 points at the end of the game, but they get in victory formation. I assume your guidance would be to do nothing? Treat it like a regular play?

[Bobref]

16 minutes ago, JustRules said:

Good stuff. That is essentially what we do. If a team doesn't indicate if they are taking a knee at the end of the first half or within 8 points at the end of the game, but they get in victory formation. I assume your guidance would be to do nothing? Treat it like a regular play?

Don’t ask … don’t tell. 😂

[SoIndRef]

10 hours ago, Bobref said:

Officials, please review the Manual, p. 36. It has a section on dealing with “Victory” formation.

So would an equitable penalty be Unsportsmanlike Conduct? Directed to the coach?

[Bobref]

40 minutes ago, SoIndRef said:

So would an equitable penalty be Unsportsmanlike Conduct? Directed to the coach?

That is left to the discretion of the Referee. But if I were the R, I’d certainly give that option strong consideration.

[Dirty D]

What about a team down 10 with 1 minute 3 timeouts and on defense. Other team said we are taking a knee. The defensive team coach told his kids to go through the defense because the game was not over. They did not he called another timeout told the players he wanted them on their butts regardless of taking a knee. He told the crew chief there was nothing in the rule book against it. Fortunately the players had more since than him and did not resort to that, but he was lighting them up for not doing it. Had they did it, is there anything there?

[Huge Football Fan]

4 hours ago, Dirty D said:

What about a team down 10 with 1 minute 3 timeouts and on defense. Other team said we are taking a knee. The defensive team coach told his kids to go through the defense because the game was not over. They did not he called another timeout told the players he wanted them on their butts regardless of taking a knee. He told the crew chief there was nothing in the rule book against it. Fortunately the players had more since than him and did not resort to that, but he was lighting them up for not doing it. Had they did it, is there anything there?

The game is 48 minutes not 47. 10 points 3 timeouts 1 min is a stretch but keep playing football 

[Dirty D]

16 hours ago, Huge Football Fan said:

The game is 48 minutes not 47. 10 points 3 timeouts 1 min is a stretch but keep playing football 

That is not my question. If a team says they are taking a knee and the defensive team gets overzealous is there a penalty. I view that as more unsportsmanship than some of the things that is called.

[Huge Football Fan]

6 minutes ago, Dirty D said:

That is not my question. If a team says they are taking a knee and the defensive team gets overzealous is there a penalty. I view that as more unsportsmanship than some of the things that is called.

The football game is 48 minutes. Also “unsportsmanlike” in regards to penalties does NOT involve contact(FYI)

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Dirty D said:

That is not my question. If a team says they are taking a knee and the defensive team gets overzealous is there a penalty. I view that as more unsportsmanship than some of the things that is called.

The penalty is “unnecessary roughness,” which is a personal foul, not unsportsmanlike conduct. It’s “unnecessary “ because the offense has declared they are taking a knee. Now, if the offense says they’re taking a knee, and then fakes it and runs a play, there is an established procedure for the officials to deal with that.

[Bobref]

This is the established procedure for taking a knee at the end of the game, and how the officials are to deal with it:

II. O.    Victory Formation
1.    The purpose of the Manual’s treatment of “Victory Formation,” end of game scenarios is to insure a consistent approach to these common situations, and one that minimizes the possibility of unsportsmanlike acts at the end of the game.

2.    At the end of the game, and occasionally at the end of the first half, a team will line up in a “Victory Formation,” preparatory to taking a knee and running out the clock. Victory Formation often occurs when Team A alters its usual formations, usually by narrowing down splits, and moving backfield players in a protective screen around the quarterback, often with a “safety” deep in the offensive backfield. But any formation can be “Victory Formation” in an end of game situation, where Team A indicates it will be taking a knee to run out the clock.

3.    When Team A is ahead by 9 or more points and can take a knee(s) to run out all of the remaining game clock, the officials will request Team A to declare its intent on whether they will be taking a knee. If Team A indicates they will be taking a knee, U and R will instruct all players that the play will be over immediately after the snap, and that all players should avoid contact, on pain of a foul and potential disqualification. However, if the snap is muffed, all bets are off, and it’s play football.  

4.    If the offensive team declares that they will be utilizing the Victory Formation to take a knee, and runs any offensive play other than a kneel down, the officials will rule this an unfair act under Rule 9-3-1, allowing R to enforce any penalty deemed equitable under the circumstances. This does not apply if the snap is muffed.

a.    In most cases replaying the down at the previous spot and resetting the game clock is an adequate remedy. 

b.    Of course, Team B retains the right to decline the penalty and accept the result of the play.

5.    If the offense muffs the snap or fumbles the ball while in Victory Formation, the ball is live and can be recovered and advanced by either team, as if Team A had not been in Victory Formation. 
 
 

[Huge Football Fan]

3 hours ago, Bobref said:

This is the established procedure for taking a knee at the end of the game, and how the officials are to deal with it:

II. O.    Victory Formation
1.    The purpose of the Manual’s treatment of “Victory Formation,” end of game scenarios is to insure a consistent approach to these common situations, and one that minimizes the possibility of unsportsmanlike acts at the end of the game.

2.    At the end of the game, and occasionally at the end of the first half, a team will line up in a “Victory Formation,” preparatory to taking a knee and running out the clock. Victory Formation often occurs when Team A alters its usual formations, usually by narrowing down splits, and moving backfield players in a protective screen around the quarterback, often with a “safety” deep in the offensive backfield. But any formation can be “Victory Formation” in an end of game situation, where Team A indicates it will be taking a knee to run out the clock.

3.    When Team A is ahead by 9 or more points and can take a knee(s) to run out all of the remaining game clock, the officials will request Team A to declare its intent on whether they will be taking a knee. If Team A indicates they will be taking a knee, U and R will instruct all players that the play will be over immediately after the snap, and that all players should avoid contact, on pain of a foul and potential disqualification. However, if the snap is muffed, all bets are off, and it’s play football.  

4.    If the offensive team declares that they will be utilizing the Victory Formation to take a knee, and runs any offensive play other than a kneel down, the officials will rule this an unfair act under Rule 9-3-1, allowing R to enforce any penalty deemed equitable under the circumstances. This does not apply if the snap is muffed.

a.    In most cases replaying the down at the previous spot and resetting the game clock is an adequate remedy. 

b.    Of course, Team B retains the right to decline the penalty and accept the result of the play.

5.    If the offense muffs the snap or fumbles the ball while in Victory Formation, the ball is live and can be recovered and advanced by either team, as if Team A had not been in Victory Formation. 
 
 

Just to be clear I don’t think what you wrote  I clear in regards to the original post. 1 min with 3 timeouts the game is bleak and the outcome is almost for sure but it’s not. We have seen bigger comebacks then down 10 with a minute. They have timeouts and can force them to punt/turn the ball over. 
I think you are still playing football in this senerio 

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Huge Football Fan said:

Just to be clear I don’t think what you wrote  I clear in regards to the original post. 1 min with 3 timeouts the game is bleak and the outcome is almost for sure but it’s not. We have seen bigger comebacks then down 10 with a minute. They have timeouts and can force them to punt/turn the ball over. 
I think you are still playing football in this senerio 

Note that the procedure only applies when the offense can run out the clock by kneeling.