Temp’s Top 25 (Preseason)

[BTF]

4 hours ago, foxbat said:

I'm assuming that's more fans than players/coaches.  While CG had an outstanding season last year, culminating in a blue ring, it would seem that the gaps in wins is getting noticeably tighter.  In 2021, CG beat FC 35-7 in the sectional game.  This past season, it was just 14-10 in sectional.  A differential drop of over three TDs.  In 2021, WC got dropped 38-14.  That dropped to just 17-8 and 42-32 in regionals.  A reduction of two TD differential in both games.  In 2021, the divide with Carmel was almost four TDs.  That dropped to a four-point differential in 2022.  For BD, in 2021, it was over a three-TD differential and over a five-TD differential in semi-state.  In 2022, that differential dropped to a single point.  

Granted, it's just a single-season comparison, albeit the most recent, but that seems like a lot of teams getting better.

I just don't see Center Grove being any different than some of the other dynasties I've seen throughout the years. It's hard for me to imagine a fellow 6A competitor not wanting to play them. 

[BTF]

2 hours ago, Bash Riprock said:

I am not hearing much of that from folks...definitely not the coaches and team.  Is there some frustration about state teams refusing to play the Trojans....sure.  I understand that totally, as I feel that way.  But definitely not because they believe they are "too good".  The schedule this season is a flat out gauntlet and it didn't need to be.

I heard it from some at the state game last year. Maybe it was just an isolated incident. 

[temptation]

2 hours ago, Slobberknocker said:

You got to love a good old day backyard rivalry where you paint your opponent's stadium and then get spanked 41-0.

 

Wow!  First I’ve ever seen of this.

(And they STILL reached out to see if they wanted them back on the schedule?)

44 minutes ago, BTF said:

I just don't see Center Grove being any different than some of the other dynasties I've seen throughout the years. It's hard for me to imagine a fellow 6A competitor not wanting to play them. 

Warren has entered the chat.

[BTF]

23 minutes ago, temptation said:

Warren has entered the chat.

I don't remember anyone canceling them. But yes, one of the better dynasties that comes to mind. 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

I don't remember anyone canceling them. But yes, one of the better dynasties that comes to mind. 

Warren is ducking CG under the disguise of racism when it’s really just virtue signaling, hurt feelings and repeated beat downs.

Edited July 24, 2023 by temptation

[LC_Bears_04]

5 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

I’ve been saying this for some time. I can’t stand all the out of state opponents. For any school. CG Whiteland needs to get back on the calendar. Same for Carmel Westfield. What a shame those 2 schools haven’t been on the schedule as well. 

Carmel and Westfield will start playing each other in week 2 in 2024.  2024 game is at Westfield, and 2025 game is at Carmel.

[Indiana Fan]

17 minutes ago, LC_Bears_04 said:

Carmel and Westfield will start playing each other in week 2 in 2024.  2024 game is at Westfield, and 2025 game is at Carmel.

It’s about time

[temptation]

45 minutes ago, LC_Bears_04 said:

Carmel and Westfield will start playing each other in week 2 in 2024.  2024 game is at Westfield, and 2025 game is at Carmel.

This is great for the sport.

Based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, part of me believes that Carmel felt they were too good for this match up in the past, and if things continue to trend in the direction they are, Westfield may actually be the one feeling that way in the coming years.

Edited July 25, 2023 by temptation

[BTF]

11 hours ago, temptation said:

This is great for the sport.

Based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, part of me believes that Carmel felt they were too good for this match up in the past, and if things continue to trend in the direction they are, Westfield may actually be the one feeling that way in the coming years.

It would take a 'less than average' coaching staff for that to happen. Guys like Moriarity and Wright proved how dominant the Greyhounds can be given the resources at their disposal. Under Hebert's guidance, they're significant in every opponent they play, just Carmel being Carmel.  And when Hebert steps down, another talented coach will take over. Coaches gravitate toward programs with resources. There's no shortage of talent in a school of 5000. 

[temptation]

2 hours ago, BTF said:

It would take a 'less than average' coaching staff for that to happen. Guys like Moriarity and Wright proved how dominant the Greyhounds can be given the resources at their disposal. Under Hebert's guidance, they're significant in every opponent they play, just Carmel being Carmel.  And when Hebert steps down, another talented coach will take over. Coaches gravitate toward programs with resources. There's no shortage of talent in a school of 5000. 

Might be an unpopular opinion but I actually think that 5000+ students in one building can be detrimental in many ways.  Just a hunch.

I am not sure that there is a significant difference/advantage between 5000 and 3000 students.

[MonkeyButt]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:55 AM, temptation said:

Did a weekly installment of this last fall at it generated discussion and received solid feedback so I’m gonna give it a go again in 2023.

Here’s how I see the state’s top 25, regardless of class, heading into the opening week.

Admittedly, my knowledge of central Indiana (my backyard) is better than other areas but I did some homework and even picked the brains of some GID members for which I am grateful.

Once the season starts, I’ll post these every weekend after surfing game results.

I’ll keep 50 teams in my database (25 honorable mention) weekly but will await week 1 results before doing so.

Critique away!

1. Center Grove
2. Cathedral
3. Ben Davis
4. Hamilton Southeastern
5. Brownsburg
6. Carmel
7. Westfield
8. Warren Central
9. Carroll (Fort Wayne)
10. Fishers
11. Valparaiso 
12. East Central
13. Lawrence North
14. Lawrence Central
15. Crown Point
16. Fort Wayne Snider
17. New Palestine
18. Roncalli
19. Bishop Chatard
20. Penn
21. Fort Wayne North
22. Whiteland
23. Franklin Central
24. Merrillville
25. West Lafayette

I like this poll! Good job! I'd only change a few things. East Central should be higher and LC should be in the top ten at least. I think they are going to bring it this year. Also, though I am a New Pal guy, I think Mt. Vernon should at least be on the list. I feel out of all the teams in our conference they lost the least.

[BTF]

38 minutes ago, temptation said:

Might be an unpopular opinion but I actually think that 5000+ students in one building can be detrimental in many ways.  Just a hunch.

I am not sure that there is a significant difference/advantage between 5000 and 3000 students.

Which three 6A teams have the most state championships and what are their enrollments? I would argue that the school with 5000 students is almost twice as likely as the school with 3000 students to find a D1 quarterback or offensive lineman walking the halls. 

[temptation]

1 minute ago, BTF said:

Which three 6A teams have the most state championships and what are their enrollments? I would argue that the school with 5000 students is almost twice as likely as the school with 3000 students to find a D1 quarterback or offensive lineman walking the halls. 

Great point.  I just think it matters less than many think.  

[PDB26]

51 minutes ago, temptation said:

Might be an unpopular opinion but I actually think that 5000+ students in one building can be detrimental in many ways.  Just a hunch.

I am not sure that there is a significant difference/advantage between 5000 and 3000 students.

5000+ enrollment is at least subject to a law of diminishing returns if it isn't detrimental, so I agree with your main point. I don't know if there's that much substantive difference even down to 2000. The most important raw number would be how many seniors a program can consistently generate over the years. Enrollment helps, but--to your point--not as much as many members here would argue.

There are only so many spots on the field.

There are only so many guys willing to be on the team in a two deep or deeper role.

Nobody can hide from the physicality of this game.

There will always be athletes at schools that will not play.

Football isn't for everyone. 

16 minutes ago, BTF said:

Which three 6A teams have the most state championships and what are their enrollments? I would argue that the school with 5000 students is almost twice as likely as the school with 3000 students to find a D1 quarterback or offensive lineman walking the halls. 

But Center Grove has more 6A state championships than any one of Ben Davis, Carmel, and Warren.

Enrollment only increases the opportunity to find those players, not the likelihood. That is not an insignificant distinction.

[Footballking16]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Might be an unpopular opinion but I actually think that 5000+ students in one building can be detrimental in many ways.  Just a hunch.

I am not sure that there is a significant difference/advantage between 5000 and 3000 students.

Agree with you here. There's a certain threshold where # of students become irrelevant when trying to field a 100-150 man football team grades 9-12. Every 6A team has the bodies to do this. I actually think a school of 5,000 discourages participation, especially in a sport like football. I also think Carmel loses a ton of feeder kids to schools like Cathedral, Brebeuf, Guerin, etc for this exact reason across all sports. 

[Indiana Fan]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Might be an unpopular opinion but I actually think that 5000+ students in one building can be detrimental in many ways.  Just a hunch.

I am not sure that there is a significant difference/advantage between 5000 and 3000 students.

Might not be that much of an advantage or difference at that point but that is still 1,000 more boys to choose from. That’s a lot!!

[BTF]

The three largest high schools rank 1, 2, & 3 in state championships in the big school division. That's not coincidence people. 

 

[BDGiant93]

20 hours ago, temptation said:

Warren has entered the chat.

I was told Warren "had to" drop Center Grove.

[Indiana Fan]

15 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I was told Warren "had to" drop Center Grove.

For what reason?

[PDB26]

26 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

Might not be that much of an advantage or difference at that point but that is still 1,000 more boys to choose from. That’s a lot!!

Choose from is an interesting way to describe it. That implies all 1000 additional boys are interested in being part of the football team. We know this is not the case.

25 minutes ago, BTF said:

The three largest high schools rank 1, 2, & 3 in state championships in the big school division. That's not coincidence people.

Center Grove has 4 6A championships. That is twice the number of any of 1, 2, or 3 in 6A. We can just as easily say that it's the competition these schools face week in and out. It's more important that they all play against large schools than it is that any one of them has 3000 or more students enrolled. 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

Choose from is an interesting way to describe it. That implies all 1000 additional boys are interested in being part of the football team. We know this is not the case.

Correct. At some point it becomes a quality over quantity type deal and I think that becomes the case once you start hitting 2500 kids. 

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

Center Grove has 4 6A championships. That is twice the number of any of 1, 2, or 3 in 6A. We can just as easily say that it's the competition these schools face week in and out. It's more important that they all play against large schools than it is that any one of them has 3000 or more students enrolled. 

Carmel, Warren Central, and Ben Davis were winning championships when the rest of Indianapolis was just average. Teams from the HCC were doormats during those dominating years. Penn won five state titles after rolling through one of the easiest schedules in the state. 

[foxbat]

12 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

Choose from is an interesting way to describe it. That implies all 1000 additional boys are interested in being part of the football team. We know this is not the case.

Center Grove has 4 6A championships. That is twice the number of any of 1, 2, or 3 in 6A. We can just as easily say that it's the competition these schools face week in and out. It's more important that they all play against large schools than it is that any one of them has 3000 or more students enrolled. 

If I had 2,000 boys to choose from and created a pretty good team and then someone else said, "Hey, I've got another 1,000 boys that look like the 2,000-boy population you just created your team from," I'm pretty sure I would look through the additional 1,000 as opposed to waiving them off.  Realistically, if someone said, "I've got another 20 boys," I'd probably waive it off as not necessarily worth the time/payoff, but for an additional 1,000, even if just 15% were interested in being part of the football team, the likelihood of improving on the original team from the 2,000-boy population is decent.

[Footballking16]

9 minutes ago, BTF said:

Carmel, Warren Central, and Ben Davis were winning championships when the rest of Indianapolis was just average. Teams from the HCC were doormats during those dominating years. Penn won five state titles after rolling through one of the easiest schedules in the state. 

The enrollment gap is closing in central Indiana. Nearly every 6A school in metro Indy is approaching 3k students (if not already there) and many will soon eclipse it. 

[Footballking16]

10 minutes ago, foxbat said:

If I had 2,000 boys to choose from and created a pretty good team and then someone else said, "Hey, I've got another 1,000 boys that look like the 2,000-boy population you just created your team from," I'm pretty sure I would look through the additional 1,000 as opposed to waiving them off.  Realistically, if someone said, "I've got another 20 boys," I'd probably waive it off as not necessarily worth the time/payoff, but for an additional 1,000, even if just 15% were interested in being part of the football team, the likelihood of improving on the original team from the 2,000-boy population is decent.

That's all true but in a sport that has a finite # of positions for only  X amount of kids, you're going to max yourself out of those extra 1,000 boys pretty quick. Carmel's shear number of kids certainly doesn't hurt its cause but I wouldn't say it's given them an over the edge advantage. They've been pretty pedestrian the last few seasons all things considered. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Footballking16