JustRules

I agree. Most of the Indy MIC/HCC and even Mid-States schools could have very good teams but get knocked out by 1 or 2 other teams in their sectional because of the local competition. Just because that happens 2 or 3 years in a row doesn't indicate anything. Many of those games could go either way. This applies to schools like Roncalli, Chatard, Brebeuf, Triton Central, Decatur Central, Tri-West, Danville, Lebanon, etc. Because of the talent the same team could lose in the first or second round of sectional or win state. Even teams that struggled this year like North Central and Pike have very talented players on their teams.

I've worked or been to games the past several years at Carmel. The crowd is always big and into the game. The team is full of great athletes. Like many other teams in central Indiana they play very good teams every week and often in early rounds of the tournament. The last3 years their tournament losses are to Ben Davis, Brownsburg, and Westfield, all very good teams! I would hardly call what is happening at Carmel as struggling.

As ridiculous and I think these rules are they've been in place for probably 10 years and you never see that repeated PIs. Your best option is to actually play the ball and get an INT or incomplete pass. You'll occasionally see an obvious DPI inside the 10 if someone is beat, but you can get that on a long pass as well where the defender knows if he doesn't interfere he's giving up a TD. 15-yards is better than 6.

There are many ways you could implement a seeded system. One suggestion I would make is have each team's schedule based on the sectional you are assigned to (5A/6A would probably play a regional schedule rather than a sectional schedule). This would give you 6-7 sectional games. You then have 3-4 non-sectional games (assuming 10 game regular season) to continue traditional rivals. That way qualifying and seeding is based entirely on your regular season results. You could have the top 4 teams from each sectional/region qualify (6 if you want to have more teams participate and the top 2 teams have byes) play with #4 at #1 and #3 at #2. If you don't want to start with teams you played during the regular season you could have #1 from one sectional play #4 from the next sectional and so forth. The higher seeded team in regional and semi-state host and have some kind of tie-breaker or top/bottom bracket to determine home team. I played multiple sports in a very similar system. The excitement it creates is the 3-4 weeks of the season and you are playing for a playoff spot and seeding. The same excitement you see around games like Owen Valley-Gibson Southern, Brownsburg Ben Davis, etc. you'll see in those late season games. Today they are playing for the win so they aren't meaningless. But you extend the excitement around tournament games into the regular season. The other big benefit is you are rewarded in the tournament for your success during the season. There are instaces of highly ranked teams traveling to 0/1/2 win teams in the first round. This week Fishers in hosting HSE. Granted it's a short drive and the environment will be heavy with fans from both teams, but HSE has earned the right to host that game. Same with Whiteland at Franklin and New Prairie at Hobart. It's also crazy that Center Grove has to travel to Columbus North, Brownsburg at Avon, and Sheridan at Hagerstown. The visiting team probably still wins those games, but they have definitely earned the right to host the sectional final game over their opponents due to their regular season schedule. Granted there is a very good chance they wouldn't be facing those opponents if it was a qualifier with seeding. Under the current system the main thing an 0-4 team is playing for is the HOPE they get to draw the other 0-4 or 1-3 team in the first round. If they have that record because of injuries and have players coming back they will have the same hope under either system. It's pretty rare for a team to start 0-4 and make a tournament run. It does happen but it's not enough to base your post season tournament on it. The MAIN reason the IFCA won't support a change is a large number of coaches want to have hope they will draw other poor teams if they have a bad season. No other competition anywhere outside of Indiana has a tournament like this at any level of any competition.

The issue here is a player who is replaced during a dead ball and return during the same dead ball. And a substitute who enters and becomes a players can't leave during the same dead ball. You could potentially have 22 total instances of it in this play if the entire unit is replaced. It's a foul for illegal substitution and would be a dead ball foul as soon as it happens. It would only be enforced as one penalty though. Rule 3-7-3 if you have a rule book.

Saw a game list night where a team tried to do this on a try. It was correctly addressed by the crew. Coach said in all his years of coaching he had never heard the explanation.

This may very well be a correct ruling of a first down but absolutely horrible mechanics and optics for the crew. Doing what they did warrants the criticism they are getting. We often say you would rather get the right call and look bad than get the wrong call and look good. That's not true in this case. Here is what I think happened. Crews often use the lines on the field to rule on first down. If they started this series with the ball touching the back of the B22 then if the ball reaches the B12 it's a first down. From this angle it clearly appears the ball reaches the back of the B12. The R likely knows this but decides to do the measurement as a PR move since it's 4th down in the 4th quarter of a close game. Once they extend the chains and it goes beyond the ball he realizes the chains are wrong. The next thing he should do is verify the clip was put down correctly. It's possible it could have been clipped on the back of the line but placed on the front of the line by the H. If you can confirm the clip is on the back of the line and still long then check the back stake and make sure it's in the correct place as well. If it doesn't go to the back of the B22 the clip may not have been placed on the right spot on the chain. This is all assuming the clip guy (maybe paid with a hot dog and soda at halftime) put the clip on that set of downs. This is also all assuming the crew the checked the chains before the game. We have chains that were a few links too short or too long and we had to correct them. As Bob mentioned the measurement mechanics were horrible on this play and contributed heavily to the criticism this crew is getting. As soon as you decided to measure the back judge should get down and secure the ball. This crew left it there for anyone to move it. We can't see what's happening back at the B20 where the clip is hopefully located. The L should be there with his foot at the spot where the H should place the clip. The U does grab the front stake like he's supposed to and puts it down on the press box side. That's about the only thing does correctly here. The R should be on the other side and ruling on where the ball is in relation to the stake. He should not touch the ball or the stake before ruling. That is horrible. But I do believe the correct ruling here was a first down. Use the lines on the field. The ball reached the B12 clearly based on the spot. Signal and move the chains. If the coach asks for a measurement tell him we don't need on because the LTG was the back of the B12 and they clearly reached that.

Good pickup by the crew but it was close. The ball was snapped in position 2 (right middle). The edge of the FBZ is about the right hash. The passer was maybe a yard outside of that. Where the crew messed up is the next snap should have also been at position 2. Instead they had it at position 1 (right hash). If they thought the previous snap was position 1 then the passer WASN'T outside the FBZ. Placing it in position 1 also gave the kicker a tougher angle for the FG although he made it. As with most plays several things the officials hedge to process every play, not just the one thing fans want to focus on.

Identify down and distance to anticipate the type of play that may occur. Get your proper depth from the LOS. If we are inside the 20 are you on the goal line or end line? Is your key pressed? Can you key on the T at the snap to determine run/pass. Is the game clock running and should it? If there was an administrative stop you are telling the R we have a hot clock or dead clock. If there was a foul on the previous play you are writing in on your game card for your crew to review on Hudl. If there was a deep run into the side zone or sideline you were there to help clean up and walk players out of an opposing bench. Help rotate in the ball from the wing to the umpire. If there is no visible play clock you are starting your stop watch. Scrimmage kicks have all of these and more for the BJ. So yes there are many jobs a B does in the 20-40 seconds between plays. Counting the defense is at or very close to the top though. I will admit I've had plays where I wasn't able to get my count done for a variety of reasons. But I try to do it every time so I don't miss it when I need it.

I wasn't referring to this crew as being "new" they all have several years of experience. But nobody is perfect. Yes, this was a big mistake that should not be excused. But it also shouldn't prevent them from learning from this mistake and advancing in the future. Your comment basically said this crew should never advance in the tournament ever again. This is the third year for this particular referee in that role which is a key reason they have only worked 1 round in previous years. Advancement is based largely on recognition over performance and they aren't known yet by a lot of coaches. Counting the offense and defense has to happen EVERY play. It's easy to get complacent when you have counted 150 times and always had 11. Have a lapse in concentration and the one (or at least three in this case) and you miss it at the wrong time! Especially when the first two plays they were coming out of time outs you have plenty of time to get your count. If the offense is in hurry up and the defense tries to sub it can be difficult to get your count on time. That wasn't an issue in any of these plays. The young comment was more for the officials we get who quit after 2-3 years working a heavy load of sub-varsity and youth games. Here is a good video that was published recently about the officiating shortage. It includes some data of the losses and why people leave. There is a difference in acknowledging the mistake and saying this crew should never advance in the tournament. Again, it would be like me saying your son was called for a holding foul that brought back a key TD at the end of a game and should never start again.

A slower shift would be OK and this is close. I'm good with the false start. Especially on 4th and less than 5. Your intent is pretty clear. The other example you'll see especially in punt formation is the OL all in a 2-point stance shifting from wide to narrow splits or vice versa. If that's a sudden movement, flag it. If it's slow and deliberate it may still cause the defense to jump but it wouldn't be a false start.

Your kid misses a block or runs the wrong route and you hope he never plays again? Why do we expect officials to be perfect and never makes mistakes? Especially at the HS level coaches, players and officials make mistakes. None of them are intentional. Even the best coaches, players, and officials make mistakes. Attitudes like this contribute to losing officials. It doesn't have to be the direct verbal abuse on the field or threats or acts of violence. Constant, repeated negativity wears on you, especially newer officials who are still learning. Fortunately most people here recognize this wasn't intentional and there is no calling for them to be banned. A suspension would definitely be justified in this case but then move on. The crew will be fine.

In many cases yes, but after watching these plays I'm not sure they had much impact in this case. That doesn't absolve the officials at all, but it make the pain a little less. The second down play a back dropped a wide open TD pass. Third play looks like a miscommunication between receiver and passer on a single coverage route as the pass dropped in an area with no receiver. This is a good crew that made a major mistake at a key point in a game. Do this long enough and it will happen to you. They are young, and I expect they'll be a crew that advances deep into the tournament in the future.

This back judge probably never misses a count again. You need to count every play especially coming out of a time out. The first two plays were coming out of time outs.

To be fair NCAA rules are different. And could have changed since Bill Lynch coached at Michigan stadium. The current NCAA rule difference from NFHS is if both players are airborne when they have simultaneous possession the one who touches the ground first is awarded possession (assuming possession is maintained). But also by philosophy it's very rare to have simultaneous catch. Generally one of them has it. Let it play out and one will usually come away with the ball fairly quickly. If not then you can apply the simultaneous catch rule. I haven't heard that consistently in NFHS so I wouldn't expect all crews to apply it. To answer the original question I agree with Bobref. Each official has a different angle and shares what they saw. If they can determine one of them maybe didn't see an aspect other(s) are confident in they may decide as a group to go with one call over another.

Would love to see the end zone view of that. This could very likely be a push by the RT that causes the LB to lose his balance as he tries to get around the edge and dive at the QB. I've seen plays like this several times that are clearly no fouls form the end zone view which is the view the covering official (referee) would have on this play. From this angle it does look like it could be a take down from behind. Especially to a Center Grove fan is 100% biased about the action. That's the strange thing about being an official. You don't care if he gets the sack or they get the first down. You just want to get the call right. It's amazing how that changes your perspective on EVERY play. If this was a whiff like Bob speculated then you would feel awful as an official taking away a huge 4th down conversion.

Not necessarily. Are you referring to this play by the Packers in 2016? I believe this play resulted in an NFL rule changes. I scanned through the NFL rule book but didn't see anything, but that doesn't mean it isn't there somewhere. The NFHS rule was changed about the same time. This would still result in a free kick out of bounds foul against the kicking team in NCAA.

Hash marks yes, I'm not sure if they expand the uprights for the state finals. I doubt they have a separate set for them installed. But some uprights have the ability to be expanded.

I would really hope an official would never say the quality of their officiating will vary depending on how much they are paid. There is some truth to the fact you may get better officials if you pay more because the better officials can often be more choosy. But even that wouldn't be a guaranteed factor. But I'm going to give the same effort if I'm working a youth game for $40 as I would a college varsity game for $300. But if I have a choice between those two games I'm probably going to work the $300 game. If you are a middle school that only pays $40 and the schools around you pay $60, you'll probably get lesser quality officials. I think every official you talk to will say there is a wide variety of quality in officials from high school and below. The lower you go the more likely you are to find lesser quality officials. I will say there are a lot of very good officials who continue to work youth games too. With 900ish licensed officials plus whatever number we have unlicensed working youth and middle school games there is no way to make sure all of them are trained and understand the rules and do a good job. Compare that to all of D1 across the country. Most conferences have 6-8 crews of 8 officials. That means the P5 and G5 conferences probably have a combined 600 officials. And they have 10 supervisors that oversee their work and they all have staffs and position coaches that review their games and provide feedback and grades. And you go through a lot of evaluation and vetting to even get to that level. Kudos to everyone who puts in the effort every week to be the best they can be. Some don't put that effort and some that do don't have the personality or skills to be great. But they are at least willing to try.

With a running clock if you flag it the clock will keep running. Talk about it as a crew. Then go to the offensive team and him twice if he wants to accept or decline He'll likely accept so you then you need to enforce it. Your radios are dead so you have to go old school and communicate verbally about the enforcement. If you are inefficient enough you may be able to use up 2-3 minutes of the running clock. Not that I would advocate for that, but with a running clock don't worry about passing on fouls like that. It won't delay the inevitable end of the game.

HS uprights - 23 feet 4 inches NCAA uprights - 18 feet 6 inches NFL uprights - 18 feet 6 inches It's common for NFL uprights to be much higher than NFHS or NCAA which makes them look narrower.

Sadly that's entirely possible.

The MIC is still good even without Carmel aand Center Grove. Every week is a battle even against game NC and Pike. They are likely to win their sectional and have another shot at CG in the Regional Final. Still a lot of talent at WC.

And there is no such thing in the football rule book as a lateral. It's either a forward pass or backward pass. I know what you mean but lateral means same/sideways and not backward. It's coach/announcer speak and can be like nails on a chalkboard to officials.

Good thing you weren't an umpire. You have that every play and twice on punts or any COP. You have to be tough and resilient in the hole.