jets

In our neck of the woods, Mt. Vernon (Posey). Have always had the socioeconomics to be successful, now that they have a head guy that "gets it" - look out. They could challenge Gibson Southern in a few years for suburbia king of SW Indiana. 

2 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

Where are they considered enrolled?

In the State's online virtual academy 

1 hour ago, Titan32 said:

So are you saying that "virtual schooling" provided by the state is something different than where schools did class room cameras and google meet to provide their own "virtual learning option"?  Or maybe nobody did that and that setup was only used in hybrid situations.

EXACTLY -there is a BIG difference and I don't think many people understand. 

We have "virtual days", as do many school corporations, where the teachers will provide instruction virtually (Zoom, Google Meet, etc...) to the students. (can be snow days, because of the pandemic, etc...) 

However, students had the option (and many took it) to do "virtual schooling" for the whole semester, and this was a program provided by the State. These students are not considered enrolled in our school district. 

24 minutes ago, boilerfan87 said:

I haven't read through this whole thread, but part of the thing that will skew enrollment numbers for some schools are the availability of online schools that are not affiliated with their districts. One example is K12, an online school provider. If students attend this school, they are not enrolled in their home school district. K12 must consult with the home school district in regards to special education accommodations, but those students are K12 students. Our district has lost a fair number of other students to other online schools, or even to home school. When they enroll in those schools, they are unenrolled in our district. I would imagine many districts have encountered this and will see an enrollment decrease as a result. 

Basically this....should have read it before I started replying. 

4 hours ago, Titan32 said:

I might be missing something but if a kid is enrolled in your school for any type of learning (in the seats or virtual)....shouldn't they be counted?  I know the state has said early on that school corporations had the option of allowing virtual kids to participate in extracurriculars.  Therefore, I say count them all just like you always would.

2 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

Virtual students are still students at your school. They still count in terms of enrollment and receive funding. 

This is where a lot of individuals get confused and why I think counting enrollments is nearly an impossible feat this year. 

Students had an option to choose “virtual schooling” this year provided by the State. They are NOT considered enrolled in any County school.

However I had a few students at semester drop out of Virtual because it was “way hard” (their words) 

But- I also had a few join for fear of numbers going up

With the Rona pandemic for the past year and half, I just don't see how one can accurately report enrollments. Is the number how many butts are actually in seats? That obviously changes from one day to the next...

What about those students who have been a part of your school, but choose virtual for the year because of concerns? 

What about those who were in-person, but at semester decided to go the virtual route because of rising case numbers?? Or vice-versa?? 

Seems like a jumbled mess to me....

Anybody know what position he will hold in the school building ?? I know this is a FOOTBALL site - but doesn't seem like that EVER gets reported when discussing hiring positions. 

I remember some years back, The “U” was hosting a bunch of youths for a “gang prevention” type program or something like that- and a huge brawl broke out between the two teams on the field. 

On 12/18/2020 at 5:00 PM, jets said:

Interesting- thank you for putting the time/effort into such research. 

While pay scale #’s are interesting in their own right- my initial question/inquiry was do any of the “head coaches” of the POWER conferences (as you call them) still try and hold what we be labeled as an “actual classroom instructor?” I.e math, language arts, science - core subject types?? 

I know PE and Strenght have their own challenges- but I’m talking the daily rigor of lesson plans, assessments, grading, etc...

My intial premise/thought would be probably not as it would take too much time/energy to do both?? 

But I do not know the answer- nor do I know how to look up such info 

OK so I finally got some time to answer my own question - and with just simple google searches I still couldn't find some positions (man school websites are hard to navigate!) - this is what I could find:

Ben Davis - Head Coach Jason Simmons - teaching position - PE

Center Grove - Head Coach Eric Moore- teaching position - PE

Lawrence Central - Head Coach Will Patterson - teaching position - PE

Lawrence North - Head Coach Patrick Mallory - teaching position - PE

North Central - Head Coach Kevin O'Shea - teaching position -listed as "Athletics" (?)

Results not found included:

Pike High School - Head Coach Pat Echeverria - teaching position ?

Carmel High School - Head Coach John Hebert - teaching position ? 

Warren Central - Head Coach TBD - teaching position ?? 

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Upon completion of some brief, informal research I have honored your request.  Some of the job titles are a bit dicey as they seem to have varying titles by district and I am not sure if that comes from the state level.

Protecting the individuals themselves, though you can easily do the same research on your own time, I can tell you that it appeared that "many" teachers have some sort of administration label to their job title but when cross checking the DOE website it gets a bit confusing.  

Knowing what I know about the top of the pay scale in many districts, it is also head scratching in that area but I will not speculate.

What I CAN tell you upon some research is that the "average" head coach in each of what most would consider the "Power 4" conferences made the following amount in 2019 (the last year data was published).

Metropolitan Interscholastic Conference:  $103k

Hoosier Crossroads Conference:  $82k

Duneland Athletic Conference:  $78k

Summit Athletic Conference:  $67k

One could make a case for the SIAC/Conference Indiana but I am sure they are comparable.

 

Draw your own conclusions.

Interesting- thank you for putting the time/effort into such research. 

While pay scale #’s are interesting in their own right- my initial question/inquiry was do any of the “head coaches” of the POWER conferences (as you call them) still try and hold what we be labeled as an “actual classroom instructor?” I.e math, language arts, science - core subject types?? 

I know PE and Strenght have their own challenges- but I’m talking the daily rigor of lesson plans, assessments, grading, etc...

My intial premise/thought would be probably not as it would take too much time/energy to do both?? 

But I do not know the answer- nor do I know how to look up such info 

Last one (I think this one makes the most sense from the Southern half of the State's perspective?) - but not sure where that leaves everyone else

More examples of possibilities. Each has advantages/disadvantages - I think what EVERYONE in 3A will agree though is that Sectional 30 needed changed

2 hours ago, superjay said:

If those 3A numbers are correct I've got it this way.  Tri-West and Danville would both go north and could potentially be separated (Danville stays south).  Heritage Hills is odd man out and has to go East.  South Bend area splits half to region half to the Fort.

REGION	KOKOMO	FORT WAYNE	INDY NW
Hanover Central	Alexandria	Bellmont	Hamilton Heights
Calumet	Knox	Heritage	Guerin Catholic
Griffith	Mississinewa	Fort Wayne Concordia	Western Boone
Benton Central	Peru	Garrett	North Montgomery
South Bend Washington	Maconaquah	Woodlan	Twin Lakes
Jimtown	Northwestern	West Noble	Crawfordsville
Mishawaka Marian	Tippecanoe Valley	Lakeland	Danville
Glenn	Yorktown	Fairfield	Tri-West
INDY SW	EVANSVILLE	LOUISVILLE	CINCY
Indian Creek	Washington	Scottsburg	Franklin County
Brown County	Gibson Southern	Madison	South Dearborn
South Vermillion	Mt. Vernon (Posey)	Charlestown	Batesville
Speedway	Evansville Bosse	Corydon	Greensburg
Monrovia	Vincennes	North Harrison	Lawrenceburg
West Vigo	Princeton	Salem	Rushville
Edgewood	Pike Central	Heritage Hills	Indianapolis Manual
Owen Valley	Southridge		Indianapolis Washington

We've been down this road multiple times on this thread. A # of different ways it can be broken down - will just be whatever logic/sense the IHSAA wants to come up with: 

1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

Are you saying strength coaches do not have teaching responsibilities because I would think that many would dispute that.

42 minutes ago, vicvinegar said:

I've seen it both ways for Math, Science, English, etc teachers also. 

Ok ok ok - not trying to turn it into a discussion/argument about that. We all know examples of teachers just doing the "bare minimum" to get by. 

I know strength/PE teachers have their own challenges - but to act like it's the same as preparing daily lessons, assessments, grading, etc...as a core academic teacher is just ignorant. 

And that's not a criticism. I believe there is WAY too much on a head coaches plate to try and do both. I was just curious as to if there are any "big name" programs out there (6A) whose Head Coach does try and tackle an academic subject?? 

I doubt anyone could compile all this data - but it'd be interesting to get a breakdown of the HC's in the MIC and other 6A teams (Brownsburg, Avon, etc...) and what position in the school system they actually hold. I'm assuming most would be some sort of "strength coach" ? Assistant AD's?? Would ANY be a "regular" classroom teacher?? 

Uh...congratulations I guess?? 

17 minutes ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

I am a retired Special Ed teacher and coach.  I never said he shouldn't go.  Just finish out what you signed up for.  I saw where he was assistant AD, that shouldn't effect the kids much.  A classroom teacher is another matter.

How many head coaches are actually "classroom teachers" (not talking strength/conditioning ) anyway?? With the increasing demands in the classroom, it's not really attainable. 

5 minutes ago, temptation said:

Kirschner leaves BD for Mount Vernon...

West leaves Warren for Franklin Central.

Its not that hard to figure out.

It started with Center Grove...now spilling into Avon, Brownsburg, New Pal, Mt Vernon.

Everyone wants that suburbia life. No one is willing to roll up their sleeves in the inner city big schools- minus O’Shea is it?? 

Maybe this is just an ignorant statement on my part being a simple country-bumpkin from a relatively small (enrollment 500ish)- but good lord. Most of these schools have 2,000+ students to choose from, figure it out ! 

SES ??? Socio-economic status?? 

How is that determined?? Is there a metric for it? 

12 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I like the thinking. But as much as I try, I think HH or SR go to 31, similar to the alignments in 2015 and 16.

29 - Put in Indian Creek for VL

30 - Edgewood for IC

31 - HH or SR for Edgewood - Probably HH

32 - VL added 

IF the IHSAA decided to go "that route", meaning back to 15 and 16, I think it's more likely it's broken down this way - I think it makes more sense time-zone wise.

31 (eastern time zone teams) - Corydon, Salem, Charleston, Scottsburg, Rushville, Brown County, North Harrison, Southridge

32 (central time zone) - Mt. Vernon, Bosse, Vincennes Lincoln, Gibson Southern, Princeton, H.H., Washington, Pike Central

7 hours ago, PhilLee said:

3A South is tricky but here is what I have right now:

 

29- Tri-West, South Vermillion, Monrovia, Danville, Indy Washington, Western Boone, Speedway, Vincennes

30- South Dearborn, Lawrenceburg, Greensburg, Batesville, Rushville, Indian Creek, Franklin County, Brown County

31- Salem, North Harrison, Scottsburg, Madison, Charlestown, Corydon, Owen Valley, Edgewood

32- Southridge, Heritage Hills, Mt. Vernon, Princeton, Gibson Southern, Washington, Ev Bosse, Pike Central

VINCENNES up in the Indy sectional?? Uh...that just makes about 0 sense at all. I think you'd be better serviced moving a school like Indian Creek up north, moving someone (Edgewood, Owen Valley?) to 30, and then someone from 32 to 31, and Vincennes to 32. I mean, Vincennes is in the SIAC for pete's sake lol. 

3 hours ago, Titan32 said:

If they want to kinda stick with the theme of the last realignment...you might be onto something here.  But if they want to make it more like before....not so much.

Ahh you mean the ol East/West of Southern Indiana sectional alignments?? I tried to run that one through as well (Basically splitting up 31 and 32 between "Evansville" area (32) and "other" Southern Indiana, mostly eastern (31) ...but without Sullivan and/or Memorial and it's looking like Brownstown - it was a little tougher to make work. It would look something like:

31 (eastern time zone teams) - Corydon, Salem, Charleston, Scottsburg, Rushville, Brown County, North Harrison, Southridge

32 (central time zone) - Mt. Vernon, Bosse, Vincennes Lincoln, Gibson Southern, Princeton, H.H., Washington, Pike Central

Not sure I love this set-up, but you are right, it is another way they could go...? 

12 hours ago, XStar said:

I took a shot at 3A with HoopsCoach's classifications:

25 - Calumet, Hanover Central, Hammond Clark, Griffith, Knox, Benton Central, Twin Lakes, West Lafayette

26 - Mishawaka Marian, SB Washington, John Glenn, Jimtown, Fairfield, Tippecanoe Valley, Peru, Maconaquah

27 - (only put 7 in this one) West Noble, Garrett, Lakeland, Woodlan, FW Concordia, Heritage, Bellmont

28 - Western Boone, North Montgomery, Crawfordsville, Guerin Catholic, Hamilton Heights, Speedway, South Vermillion, Tri-West

29 - Danville, Monrovia, Indy Washington, Washington, Owen Valley, Indian Creek, Brown County, Edgewood

30 - Mississinewa, Alexandria, Northwestern, Yorktown, Rushville, Batesville, Greensburg, Franklin County

31 - Salem, North Harrison, Corydon Central, Madison, South Dearborn, Scottsburg, Charlestown, Lawrenceburg

32 - Mt Vernon, Evansville Bosse, Gibson Southern, Pike Central, Southridge, Heritage Hills, Vincennes Lincoln, Princeton

 

I like this alignment.  Sectional 25 had a hole in it and West Lafayette makes more geographic sense than anyone else to fill it I think with Benton Central and Twin Lakes already in it as well.  I put Mississinewa in Sectional 30 rather than 27 partially because they fit in geographically with schools like Alexandria and Northwestern and I think that program could beef up that sectional a little.  Sectional 28 looks a little different with Chatard moving up.  I put Western Boone in their spot and while I moved West Lafayette to 25, I shifted Tri-West from 29 to 28 so it still looks plenty tough to me.

As for balance, I count 11 teams in the "new" 3A that finished in the top 100 in Sagarin in 2020.  All 8 sectionals has at least one and only one (Sectional 28) has 3.  I'd love to move one of those 3 to a different sectional but can't figure out a way to do it that makes sense.  I think the teams in 31 and 32 pretty much have to be where they are based on geography but that's just from me looking at a map.  That's the part of the state I'm least familiar with.  

Any thoughts?  Complaints?  

Thought about starting a separate thread for Southern 3A sectional alignment possibilities ...but this could/would serve the same purpose. 

Don't hate what you have down here - but I think it could be improved. (I don't believe you can but Missinneswea and Alexandia in the SOUTHERN sectionals....also, believe you left off some teams)Here is what I've come up with and reasoning with it.

Sectional 29 (we'll call this the "Indy Sectional") - Danville, WeBo, Tri-West, Ritter, Indian Creek, Indy Washington, Manual, and Guerin Catholic

Sectional 30 (HAD to be fixed. We'll call this the "come on up Highway 41 Sectional) - West Vigo, Washington, Princeton, Gibson Southern, Vincennes Lincoln, Edgewood, Greencastle, and Brown County 

Sectional 31 (We'll call this Eastern Indiana) - Franklin County, Lawrenceburg, North Harrison, Batesville, Charleston, Scottsburg, Owen Valley, and Rushville. *Not sure about the competitive balance here..but I think it's better than the ol Sectional 30...

Sectional 32 (What's left in Southern Indiana) - Corydon, Salem, Pike Central, Southridge, Heritage Hills, Bosse, Mt. Vernon 

37 minutes ago, Lysander said:

There is what seems to be a detectable, almost obvious, ebb and flow to your numbers above.  In 2014, only 17% of the titles went to P/Ps which meant that certain winning Publics were going to get Success Factored up.  

 In 2015 and 2016, the P/Ps that had been “bumped” returned down and won again.

In 2017 and 2018, the P/Ps were bumped “up” again and failed to win in the next class.  During that same time for 2 straight years, P/Ps only won 17% of the titles again for 2 straight years.  The implication of that is that most of the schools being bumped will be Publics and the P/Ps that failed will return to class of origin.....moreso than any year prior.

What is the result of that Public domination in 2017 and 2018?  P/Ps (whether existing already in class or returning) won due to the fact that the prior successful Publics had been bumped up due to their success the previous 2 years.

The 67% winning rates of P/Ps in 2020 are a direct result of the inordinate success of Publics who were bumped up due to their successes in 2017 and 2018.

The Success Factor has “worked” but the “yo-yo” effect hasn’t yet been fully solved.....although the switch to 2 points to stay “up” is a step in the right direction.

I would add that it’s always going to take 2-6 years for thing to sort themselves out do to the way the 2 cycles work and how they fall.  Again, going to a rolling cycle should allow thing to shake out much more quickly as to results.

You make a lot of good observations/points. Well done and thought out. I agree 100% with the "ebb/flow" of the success factor cycle.

NOW - one point to consider is, and it is of my opinion only - is that the SF shouldn't apply to those publics. Most are the beneficiaries of successful classes going through the school, and will return to the "mean" after their cycle is through - but yet it's the younger classes (who only get one shot at this high school football thing) having to pay for the success of earlier classes.

You'll say it's the same in the P/Ps?? Sure, but again, with obvious inherent advantages, I do believe they should play by a little bit different set of rules. 

I don't think it will ever happen, but that is my belief. 

I just want to make sure I have this right. I haven't read through all 4 pages of this thread, so forgive me if it's been brought up. Off the top of my head (without doing any research)- the SF this past classification cycle had these teams "moved up" :

Pioneer (from 1A to 2A) semi-State loss to Luers

Southridge (2A to 3A) semi-state loss to Danville

Memorial (3A to 4A)...sectional loss to Evansville Central

New Pal (4A to 5A) ...sectional loss to Mt. Vernon

Cathedral ? (are they 4A by enrollment?) 

So, 3 Public Schools and 2 P/Ps? 

State Champs this year in 1A, 3A, 4A, and 5A were all P/Ps - are we sure this thing is working as it should?