Top 15 Regardless of Class (Mid-Season)

[dmizers3]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

New Pal might have something to say about that.

They most certainly would. As well as @Footballking16 assertion of Cathedral being the most explosive offense in the state.  Though it is a fun discussion and I'll admit my bias but I've seen both play and I'll take New Pal.  Should make for a fun regional though.

[Footballking16]

6 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

They most certainly would. As well as @Footballking16 assertion of Cathedral being the most explosive offense in the state.  Though it is a fun discussion and I'll admit my bias but I've seen both play and I'll take New Pal.  Should make for a fun regional though.

Trust me, just a biased opinion. But I’ve been more impressed with Cathedral’s balance and ability to move the ball against a much, much tougher schedule than New Pal. I just watched Cathedral score times 4 times from 50+ yards against one of the better teams in the nation in St. Xavier.

[Staxawax]

3 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

Even though they have lost to #1, #5, #6 and honorable mention on your list. (The last 3 being close games) Guess we shall see come tournament time with injured players returning if the Trojans figure out how to win.....

🙄

You are trying to defend a 1 - 4  football team.  1 win...... 4 losses.

Even the coaches in this week’s IFCA poll agree.  Not a single vote from any of the coaches.

[FastpacedO]

8 hours ago, dmizers3 said:

They most certainly would. As well as @Footballking16 assertion of Cathedral being the most explosive offense in the state.  Though it is a fun discussion and I'll admit my bias but I've seen both play and I'll take New Pal.  Should make for a fun regional though.

New Palestine is without a doubt the top of 5A until somebody knocks them off. They are the defending 5A State Champions and look just as good this year. Watching both New Pal and Cathedral's offenses they are both very explosive and I would say both among the top in the State. Both have speed in the passing game, both have speed in the run game. I personally think while New Pal has speed in the running game, they also have power in the running game Spegal is a load to bring down and has terrific speed in the open field. Both also have very good Offensive lines.

With the way both teams are playing and if they both stay healthy it should make for a great Regional. That is of course both need to get out of Sectionals as nothing is a given. Cathedral still has Decatur Central in their Sectional. Going into the season I thought New Pal's sectional looked to be rather easy depending on how good Whiteland was, but now it looks as though Franklin has emerged to be a solid team. I don't think Franklin can knock off New Pal but they certainly look much improved.

Best of luck to both Cathedral and New Pal. They both have terrific coaches Ralph and Peebles.

[cg_holmeaid]

7 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

Even though they have lost to #1, #5, #6 and honorable mention on your list. (The last 3 being close games) Guess we shall see come tournament time with injured players returning if the Trojans figure out how to win.....

🙄

Gonna be a very dangerous team come tournament time. That’ll be real CG football at its finest.

[cg_holmeaid]

4 hours ago, Staxawax said:

You are trying to defend a 1 - 4  football team.  1 win...... 4 losses.

Even the coaches in this week’s IFCA poll agree.  Not a single vote from any of the coaches.

I don’t think that CG’s record shows how good of a team they are. I bet that most of us can agree that they most likely should’ve won 2 out of those four losses (WC and NC). They just seem to always make a late mistake that leads to an opponent touchdown. I agree though that they most likely don’t deserve a top ten ranking based off their record.

[Footballking16]

7 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

Even though they have lost to #1, #5, #6 and honorable mention on your list. (The last 3 being close games) Guess we shall see come tournament time with injured players returning if the Trojans figure out how to win.....

🙄

TD- You obviously know I respect your opinion and the CG football program, but it wasn’t long ago that Cathedral had guys like Markese Stepp, Emil Ekiyor, Ben Stewart, and Pete Werner all hurt simultaneously and throughout the course of the year when you claimed, “you are what your record says you”.

Now do I think CG is better then the 1-4 record next to their name? Sure. But at some point injuries are what they are.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, cg_holmeaid said:

I don’t think that CG’s record shows how good of a team they are. I bet that most of us can agree that they most likely should’ve won 2 out of those four losses (WC and NC). They just seem to always make a late mistake that leads to an opponent touchdown. I agree though that they most likely don’t deserve a top ten ranking based off their record.

Nobody even clamored for top TEN, but there are TWENTY SEVEN teams listed in the original post.  I don't care what their record is.  If there are 27 teams in INDIANA better than Center Grove, then Texas, California and Florida better watch out.

2 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

New Palestine is without a doubt the top of 5A until somebody knocks them off. They are the defending 5A State Champions and look just as good this year. Watching both New Pal and Cathedral's offenses they are both very explosive and I would say both among the top in the State. Both have speed in the passing game, both have speed in the run game. I personally think while New Pal has speed in the running game, they also have power in the running game Spegal is a load to bring down and has terrific speed in the open field. Both also have very good Offensive lines.

With the way both teams are playing and if they both stay healthy it should make for a great Regional. That is of course both need to get out of Sectionals as nothing is a given. Cathedral still has Decatur Central in their Sectional. Going into the season I thought New Pal's sectional looked to be rather easy depending on how good Whiteland was, but now it looks as though Franklin has emerged to be a solid team. I don't think Franklin can knock off New Pal but they certainly look much improved.

Best of luck to both Cathedral and New Pal. They both have terrific coaches Ralph and Peebles.

So you're telling me to take the OVER, huh?  

Edited September 24, 2019 by Guest

[Boilernation]

3 hours ago, cg_holmeaid said:

Gonna be a very dangerous team come tournament time. That’ll be real CG football at its finest.

I haven't followed CG close enough to know what's going on other than Steele being hurt, so I'm curious to know why you feel that way. Are there other impact players that are currently out? Regarding Steele, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is this two years in a row he's been limited by a hamstring injury? At some point counting on Steele to play like he did as a Freshman might be a pipe dream. Unfortunately, the kid could be a few plays away from shutting it down for the season, which may benefit him in the long run.

 

[cg_holmeaid]

36 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

I haven't followed CG close enough to know what's going on other than Steele being hurt, so I'm curious to know why you feel that way. Are there other impact players that are currently out? Regarding Steele, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is this two years in a row he's been limited by a hamstring injury? At some point counting on Steele to play like he did as a Freshman might be a pipe dream. Unfortunately, the kid could be a few plays away from shutting it down for the season, which may benefit him in the long run.

 

This is the first time he’s dealt with the hamstring issue. Right now they have enough talent without Steele to beat some really good teams. When he gets back out there, it’ll take the team to a new level in my opinion. With the backs that they have now I doubt that they’ll use Steele like they did his freshman year, but they might. 

[Staxawax]

3 hours ago, Temptation said:

Nobody even clamored for top TEN, but there are TWENTY SEVEN teams listed in the original post.  I don't care what their record is.  If there are 27 teams in INDIANA better than Center Grove, then Texas, California and Florida better watch out.

 

I explained what my "honorable mention" list was based.  It had nothing to do with the order of ranking in the state.  It was giving recognition in each class teams that will be "players" in the tournament.

[Staxawax]

16 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Certainly within your opinion but again that doesn’t quantify “pound for pound”, I don’t think you get what that means. 80% of those schools have 3-4x the enrollment of Chatard and I too would expect them to beat Chatard more times than not. But relative to Chatard’s enrollment, I think they are “pound for pound” the best team in the state.

So this brings up an interesting question.  What's the bigger factor......... enrollment or roster size?  My opinion is roster size which to me equates to depth.

Maxpreps lists the following roster sizes for each school:

New Pal     66

Avon           79

Bburg         106

Cathedral   85

Carmel       123

Warren        112

Chatard        81

Homestead   114

W. Lafayette   57

East Noble    52

New Prairie    70

South Adams  44

Some of these with the high numbers could include all 4 grades.  I cannot confirm that.  But it appears that Chatard's roster is approx. equal to both Cathedral and Avon.  And possibly some of those that have all 4 grades listed.  I'm not explaining myself very well but don't you think that having 81 on your roster gives you enough depth that the"pound for pound"argument does not hold water?

[Staxawax]

21 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Not defending as much as poking holes in your logic.  Name one school in this state that has played 5 tougher games, could have easily won 4 of them...and played them without 2 of their best players...one on offense and the other on defense.  

Just find your honorable mentioned flawed...but, to each his own.  I just haven't thrown in the towel that this CG team can't or won't make some noise this season.  The youngun's are growing up and injured players will be back.

Did you not catch my initial comment that in my opinion CG probably had "top 5 talent"?  You are making my case for excluding them when you say they could have easily won 4 games.

[Footballking16]

22 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

So this brings up an interesting question.  What's the bigger factor......... enrollment or roster size?  My opinion is roster size which to me equates to depth.

Maxpreps lists the following roster sizes for each school:

New Pal     66

Avon           79

Bburg         106

Cathedral   85

Carmel       123

Warren        112

Chatard        81

Homestead   114

W. Lafayette   57

East Noble    52

New Prairie    70

South Adams  44

Some of these with the high numbers could include all 4 grades.  I cannot confirm that.  But it appears that Chatard's roster is approx. equal to both Cathedral and Avon.  And possibly some of those that have all 4 grades listed.  I'm not explaining myself very well but don't you think that having 81 on your roster gives you enough depth that the"pound for pound"argument does not hold water?

I don't think roster size is always the best indication. It's no secret that there is more participation in a P/P setting, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of talent or depth. Avon may have 2 less kids than Chatard but Avon has 4x the enrollment. The bigger the school, the more the competition there is and subsequently less available playing time and that leads to fewer participation. I have no doubt that schools like Avon, Warren, Carmel, etc could field 2 very competitive varsity teams if they so wanted to. 

[Boilernation]

15 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Played in 12 games his freshman year, rushing for 1700 yds.  Played in 13 games his soph year rushing for more than 2200 yds.  First time he has dealt with injury that has sidelined him.

Interesting. I thought he was hurt last year as well and missed a few games. My mistake. 

[Trojan88]

18 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Yes I believe Chatard is the best team in 3A as well as the best pound for pound team in the state. They don’t mean the same thing.

Im gonna have to take a picture of this thread, print it, and enjoy someone from Cathedral giving mad props to the Trojans! 🙂 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

I don't think roster size is always the best indication. It's no secret that there is more participation in a P/P setting, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of talent or depth. Avon may have 2 less kids than Chatard but Avon has 4x the enrollment. The bigger the school, the more the competition there is and subsequently less available playing time and that leads to fewer participation. I have no doubt that schools like Avon, Warren, Carmel, etc could field 2 very competitive varsity teams if they so wanted to. 

I'm going to have to disagree on part of this depending upon your definition of "participation."  

Teams that are successful annually at the 6A level (Avon, Warren, Carmel in your example) have an INCREASE in numbers/participation just to be a part of something that is successful.  Now, how many of those kids actually "PLAY" or participate is another thing.

I don't see many kids in this area that are walking away from football due to a lack of playing time.  

It's much more of a status symbol at most places to say you are "on the football team" whether you play or not.

[Footballking16]

25 minutes ago, Trojan88 said:

Im gonna have to take a picture of this thread, print it, and enjoy someone from Cathedral giving mad props to the Trojans! 🙂 

Pains me to do it but I think you guys have a great team and probably were the better team even in defeat a few weeks ago. Outside a blown coverage on 3rd and 22 that resulted in an 88 yard TD pass and then another long run late to seal the game (2 plays accounted for more than half of Cathedral's output for the game), you guys dominated the LOS despite being outweighed 40-50 lbs a man. Was the only time this year I've seen Cathedral struggle to move the ball and that's with playing X and Elder on the road where the Irish moved the ball at will. 

[Rodney]

I would like to just bring this back to the point of this guy thinks south Adams is worth mentioning but not cg.

 

I bet the cg marching band would pitch a shutout against south Adams.

[Footballking16]

25 minutes ago, Temptation said:

I'm going to have to disagree on part of this depending upon your definition of "participation."  

Teams that are successful annually at the 6A level (Avon, Warren, Carmel in your example) have an INCREASE in numbers/participation just to be a part of something that is successful.  Now, how many of those kids actually "PLAY" or participate is another thing.

I don't see many kids in this area that are walking away from football due to a lack of playing time.  

It's much more of a status symbol at most places to say you are "on the football team" whether you play or not.

I'm strictly speaking to numbers. Avon has ~3,000 kids in their school. Assuming it's a 50/50 split male v female, that's 1500 boys in the school. Compare that to Chatard and their 700 students (350 boys in a 50/50 split).

Both teams may have 80 players on their roster, but if you're choosing 80 kids from a pool of 350 kids while another team is choosing 80 kids from a pool of 1500, the latter is going to be bigger/faster/strong up and down the roster, especially towards the end of the roster. I don't think Avon's top 10 players are night and day better than the top 10 players from Chatard, but 11-22? And then 23-80? Absolutely. They have a ton more to choose from.

 It's simply a numbers game. Roughly 23% of Chatard's male enrollment makes up their varsity roster of 80 players. 23% of Avon's male enrollment is 345. It's not feasible to have 345 players on a football roster. There are kids at Avon, Brownsburg, at any 6A who are discouraged from playing due to sheer numbers. It's simply a numbers game.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I'm strictly speaking to numbers. Avon has ~3,000 kids in their school. Assuming it's a 50/50 split male v female, that's 1500 boys in the school. Compare that to Chatard and their 700 students (350 boys in a 50/50 split).

Both teams may have 80 players on their roster, but if you're choosing 80 kids from a pool of 350 kids while another team is choosing 80 kids from a pool of 1500, the latter is going to be bigger/faster/strong up and down the roster, especially towards the end of the roster. I don't think Avon's top 10 players are night and day better than the top 10 players from Chatard, but 11-22? And then 23-80? Absolutely. They have a ton more to choose from.

 It's simply a numbers game. Roughly 23% of Chatard's male enrollment makes up their varsity roster of 80 players. 23% of Avon's male enrollment is 345. It's not feasible to have 345 players on a football roster. There are kids at Avon, Brownsburg, at any 6A who are discouraged from playing due to sheer numbers. It's simply a numbers game.

So they leave and go to Cascade, Danville, Plainfield and Tri-West.

As an educator/coach in a public school system, I have NEVER heard a kid cite “too many numbers” as a reason for not playing football.

In my experience kids transfer or proudly ride the bench and get their locker decorated and wear their jersey to school every Friday...

[Footballking16]

19 minutes ago, Temptation said:

So they leave and go to Cascade, Danville, Plainfield and Tri-West.

As an educator/coach in a public school system, I have NEVER heard a kid cite “too many numbers” as a reason for not playing football.

In my experience kids transfer or proudly ride the bench and get their locker decorated and wear their jersey to school every Friday...

So you're telling me that 77 players on Avon's roster are the best 77 football players in a school of 3,000? I say no chance. We can agree to disagree. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

So you're telling me that 77 players on Avon's roster are the best 77 football players in a school of 3,000? I say no chance. We can agree to disagree. 

Oh geez.  You win already.  You’re looking for some fictional trophy that doesn’t exist.  You keep moving the goalposts on this one.

Never thought I’d see the day where a CHATARD backer is taking some sort of moral victory stance.

I bet you’ll be a riot on here in November...win or lose.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Guest

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Oh geez.  You win already.  You’re looking for some fictional trophy that doesn’t exist.  You keep moving the goalposts on this one.

Never thought I’d see the day where a CHATARD backer is taking some sort of moral victory stance.

I bet you’ll be a riot on here in November...win or lose.

I’m a Cathedral backer giving credit where credit is due. 

How did I move the goalposts? I stated an opinion that I believe kids are discouraged to come out for football or quit altogether before they see it through because of the sheer numbers at these 3,000+ school enrollments. I planted the goal posts here. You don’t have to agree with me, but stop suggesting I’m switching the narrative.

[Footballking16]

2 hours ago, Temptation said:

As an educator/coach in a public school system, I have NEVER heard a kid cite “too many numbers” as a reason for not playing football.

I’m not the one speaking in absolutes, you are. You said you’ve “NEVER” heard a kid cite too many numbers as a reason why they don’t play football. If that’s your stance then you have no other choice than to believe the 77 kids on Avon’s roster or the 120 kids on Ben Davis’ roster are the best available football players in the school. But you’ll never say that because you know it’s not true. There are plenty of kids at schools like Ben Davis or Warren or Carmel who are good enough to play varsity at just about any other school in the state that don’t and that’s because they’ll never see the field because there’s still 4 or 5 other guys better at their position. That’s the problem created when you have three and four thousand kids in a school.

I know for a fact that for years the best football players at North Central didn’t come out for the team. I know it was a big problem at LN as well for the longest time.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Footballking16