Penn and Mishawaka rivalry (on the gridiron) ending (link)

[GOLDRUSH1985]

Penn in the last several years likes to play very good 6A type teams weeks 1-3 . StX , Flossmor , Orchard Lake St Marys, Brother Rice and now Indianapolis Cathedral . With Mishawaka now changing conferences , there really is nowhere to put them . They are not going to drop a St X type team for Mishawaka . 

[johnny U]

2 hours ago, Indian72 said:

Ever since we started playing them they travel and usually bring the pep band as well

Much better than a lot of NIC teams

Just because Mishawaka travels well in football doesn"t mean they travel in all sports.  It's like saying Riley travels well in all sports because in basketball their fans travel.

[XStar]

1 hour ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Going back 20 years , Really ? here are some scores from 2000 to present

35-7 , 38-0 , 54-14 , 50-0 , 51-0 , 47-14 , 48-14 , 28-7 , 39-0 , 28-0 , 17-0 , 17-7 , 31-14 , 21-7 , 28-7 , 48-7 . That's 16 games that were not competitive . 

Well I left such a large gap when I said 10-20 years because I was speaking off the cuff and didn't think it necessary to sit down and look at the year-by-year results to make my point.  

First I'd say that margins of 21 points or less don't really indicate a blowout.  Are you really saying a 17-7 game can't be competitive?  So I'd say even over the range you specified that there are 10 games I'd classify as blowouts, or at least not competitive.  When Mishawaka beat you 26-10 did you consider that to be a blowout?  I sure didn't.  

But let's look at that in more detail.  First, eliminate the Geesman years.  He was a great coach and dominated Mishawaka and actually won state titles.  Not going to argue with him.

I believe Yeoman is 16-5 against Mishawaka.  Of those 16 wins, I think 5 have been blowouts.  He's won by 33, 35, 39, 28,  and 41.  The funny thing is, 4 of those happened in 2007 or prior.   So that's been one Penn blowout of more than 21 points in the past 11 seasons.

Now let's narrow it down to after Bart Curtis took over Mishawaka in 2008 and made it respectable.  Since that time, Penn is only 9-5 against Mishawaka with only 1 game out of 14 whose final margin was 21 points or more in favor of Penn.  

Certainly you can conclude that Penn has had the upper hand in the series but it's not hard to see that it's dominance in the series has faded, mostly since Geesman retired.

So my apologies for leaving such a large gap in my initial statement.  I'll be more specific and say over the past 11 years there's probably only been the 1 game between the two that I would consider a blowout.  The rest have been reasonably competitive.  I doubt there's anyone who has been more competitive on their schedule over that same stretch and I sure don't believe LaPorte will be.  

 

[GOLDRUSH1985]

First off , a 21 point win is a butt whipping . Yes I did consider Penn's 26-10 loss a butt whipping . I would agree that Penn has slipped a notch or two since Geez retired . But , Mishawaka also improved under Bart Curtis . A team that wins by 14+ points is Clearly the better team 95% of the time . lets not forget the 48-7 game just 2 years ago . I think Cory is trying to make Penn better , that is why he wants to schedule top In state and out of state competition weeks 1-3 . You can't tell me that Penn gets more from playing Mishawaka than Cathedral . I could care less about regular season records or rivalry games , as long as they are better prepared for the playoffs . 

Edited September 27, 2019 by GOLDRUSH1985

[FormerCoach]

21 points is NOT a butt whipping.  ESPECIALLY when the ball bounces the wrong/right way.  Penn is slipping while the numbers have decreased (EVERYWHERE, not just at Penn) and also while the Rugby program is taking off and growing.  Penn is not and will not be a dominant force in the STATE (dare I say) EVER again.  The MIC and the teams in the south have proven time and time again that they are at a different level than Penn and anyone else in the north (in 6A).  So while Penn may want to play better competition to see where they are in terms of comparison to the rest of the teams in the state, the fact is this:  Penn is butt-hurt because Mishawaka jumped ship and left them in an overall weak conference (in terms of ALL sports, not just football) with no gate for the foreseeable future.  Scheduling Cathedral is SMART for Penn...quality program with some of Indy's best athletes.  My guess is that Cory and his staff WANT to play Mishawaka but the administration is to blame on this.  But ditching Mishawaka to play Valpo is Penn's way of saying, "I'm going to take my ball and go home if Mishawaka is going to leave and play with other schools".  Kind of childish!

 

[US31]

19 minutes ago, FormerCoach said:

Penn is not and will not be a dominant force in the STATE (dare I say) EVER again. 

Ok...so Penn is in a down cycle....last year and this year.....

However COMMA they played in the semi-state game the previous FIVE SEASONS, and were State-Runner up THREE TIMES in the last 8 seasons.  During those last five seasons, they beat Carmel TWICE and lost another time by one point.   Carmel, by the way, is over 5 THOUSAND students....Penn has an enrollment of about 3500.  That makes for a VERY AVERAGE sized metro Indy school.  I fail to see the lack of dominance given any measurables.  All schools have a down cycle....Ben Davis is in one right now....would you say the same about them???

ETA: I looked it up...Penn is a little over 3300 students.

Also, I agree with much of what FormerCoach said about scheduling.  Many MIC/HCC teams are scheduling the likes of StX, Trinity, etc...Penn should be doing the same.

Edited September 27, 2019 by US31

[Bobref]

1 minute ago, US31 said:

Ok...so Penn is in a down cycle....last year and this year.....

However COMMA they played in the semi-state game the previous FIVE SEASONS, and were State-Runner up THREE TIMES in the last 8 seasons.  During those last five seasons, they beat Carmel TWICE and lost another time by one point.   Carmel, by the way, is over 5 THOUSAND students....Penn has an enrollment of about 3500.  That makes for a VERY AVERAGE sized metro Indy school.  I fail to see the lack of dominance given any measurables.  All schools have a down cycle....Ben Davis is in one right now....would you say the same about them???

 

 

 

This may say more about the decline of “big school football” in the Northern half of the state than anything else.

[US31]

Just now, Bobref said:

This may say more about the decline of “big school football” in the Northern half of the state than anything else.

I don't disagree, given rest of MIC goes south and most of HCC does too....but Fishers, HSE, Carmel, Westfield, Snider, Penn isn't too shabby.  Penn is smaller than Fishers, and HSE will pass them soon.  It will be interesting to see how Penn does as it faces HCC schools down the road.  It really fits that group of schools well in size and athletics etc.

[Bobref]

8 minutes ago, US31 said:

I don't disagree, given rest of MIC goes south and most of HCC does too....but Fishers, HSE, Carmel, Westfield, Snider, Penn isn't too shabby.  Penn is smaller than Fishers, and HSE will pass them soon.  It will be interesting to see how Penn does as it faces HCC schools down the road.  It really fits that group of schools well in size and athletics etc.

I have a hard time thinking of HCC or any MIC schools as “Northern.”

[FormerCoach]

Since 2003, Penn's record & scores vs. teams in the "south" and also teams from "out of state" (including Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, St. Mary's, St. X, etc.):

9-18 with scores of:

Losses include scores of:  13-7, 10-7, 57-7, 38-3, 54-0, 28-13, 14-13, 28-16, 21-10, 24-21, 14-10, 63-14, 21-7, 27-24, 20-0, 38-32, 30-20, 35-27

Wins include scores of:  15-7, 7-6, 17-7, 29-7, 14-7, 10-7, 38-0, 38-17, 20-17

According to your definition of a "blow out" Gold Rush, Penn's been blown out in 7 of their losses and have actually only "blown out" 3 opponents in their wins. Fact is that there is NOT MUCH competition in the northern half of the state when it comes to 6A.  That being said, IF Penn fails to make it to semi-state, that's a bad year for Penn because based on their own enrollment, they are one of the largest schools in the "north"...because like Bobref said, it's hard to call any HCC or MIC school a northern school.

Back to my point:  Penn is sad because Mishawaka left them in a conference that doesn't travel well or prepare Penn in ANY way...not only in football, but MANY other sports.

 

[GOLDRUSH1985]

Why do you keep saying Penn is Sad? If you ask a girl to the prom and she turns you down , who is Sad ?

[FormerCoach]

For you GoldRush:

The PC answer:  Penn is extremely upset with Mishawaka's decision to leave the NIC.  In order to show their disapproval of Mishawaka's decision, Penn has decided to not schedule Mishawaka.  

The NOT PC answer:  Penn doesn't like the rules set forth by Mishawaka so they're taking their ball and going home.

[US31]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

I have a hard time thinking of HCC or any MIC schools as “Northern.”

For the purposes of Penn getting to State, the IHSAA says they are....😁.

Overall I agree with you though....the growth around the Indy donut, has far outpaced any other part of the state.  Thats the reason for Northern 5A/6A decline....a lot of people in Indy Metro assume Penn is the size of BD or Warren.  When I point out they are almost 2000 kids smaller than Carmel it shocks people.  For that matter I doubt most "casual" fans even know how much bigger Carmel is than the rest of the MIC.  5200 students, plus being the only MIC school in the Northern half of 6A...thats a nice problem to have.  

[GOLDRUSH1985]

55 minutes ago, FormerCoach said:

For you GoldRush:

The PC answer:  Penn is extremely upset with Mishawaka's decision to leave the NIC.  In order to show their disapproval of Mishawaka's decision, Penn has decided to not schedule Mishawaka.  

The NOT PC answer:  Penn doesn't like the rules set forth by Mishawaka so they're taking their ball and going home.

You don't get it , it's a scheduling issue and nothing else . Penn is not giving up Valparaiso , who is consistantly better than Mishawaka .What would they gain???? They are not giving up top out of state teams for Mishawaka , again what would be the gain ??? . So if there was a way to play them in weeks 4-9 , I'm sure they would . Mishawaka and Penn will be in conference play weeks 4-9 . 

Edited September 27, 2019 by GOLDRUSH1985

[Coach Nowlin]

Can we refrain from using a certain term that does not need to be used to get a simple message across of being upset. 

 

[US31]

15 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Can we refrain from using a certain term that does not need to be used to get a simple message across of being upset. 

 

Colon sore???

[FormerCoach]

I will refrain from using that word that is offensive to some?

Statistics for you GoldRush:

From 2009-2018 Penn's Record vs. Valpo:  10-3 and they have outscored Valpo in those 13 meetings 305-118

From 2009-2018 Penn's Record vs. Mish:  7-5 and they have outscored MIsh in those 12 meetings 305-229

Still believe Valpo is consistently better than Mishawaka?  Not in the past ten seasons they aren't! 

I'd also like to point out that in those 10 years, Penn has never shut Mishawaka out...they shut Valpo out twice.

It's NOT a scheduling issue...it's a choice to play Valpo instead of Mishawaka because they are offended Mishawaka would leave the NIC while Penn is "stuck" there.  

[GOLDRUSH1985]

24 minutes ago, FormerCoach said:

I will refrain from using that word that is offensive to some?

Statistics for you GoldRush:

From 2009-2018 Penn's Record vs. Valpo:  10-3 and they have outscored Valpo in those 13 meetings 305-118

From 2009-2018 Penn's Record vs. Mish:  7-5 and they have outscored MIsh in those 12 meetings 305-229

Still believe Valpo is consistently better than Mishawaka?  Not in the past ten seasons they aren't! 

I'd also like to point out that in those 10 years, Penn has never shut Mishawaka out...they shut Valpo out twice.

It's NOT a scheduling issue...it's a choice to play Valpo instead of Mishawaka because they are offended Mishawaka would leave the NIC while Penn is "stuck" there.  

Transitive property"s do not work in football , to many variable's like weather , Wind , rain , snow etc . I would look at head to head matchups between Valpo and Mish .  Penn has opened the season with Valpo for 20 years , they aren't giving that game up .Neither team is Butt hurt , the scheduling doesn't line up period . What would be the gain in Penn's favor that would make them drop a team that they have opened up with for 20 years , to play Mish ? There isn't one . 

[gindie]

On 9/26/2019 at 8:36 AM, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

How did Penn get hosed? Looks like Penn is looking for a better date for the ball , as in top out of state competition . Mishawaka may win the game this year  , and have been competitive in recent years , but Penn is 47-15 all time vs Mish . The majority of the 47 weren't close . 

It's more impressive when you consider that the first 10 or so of those 15 losses were at the beginning of the series in the 60's.  Penn didn't beat them until Geesman came.