Greenwood exploring conference change

[Coach Harvey]

39 minutes ago, superjay said:

Good move by both schools.  Yes, travel on the south side of Indy sucks, but the schools in their current conferences are out growing them.  Plainfield, Whiteland, Franklin, and Decatur are all headed for 6A.  Mt Vernon, New Pal, Greenfield are all headed toward 5A.  Looking forward to playing some new teams.  Now we just need to get Monrovia and Shelbyville some turf.

Shelbyville already has turf and fancy LED lights.

[Coach Harvey]

22 minutes ago, Playmaker said:

Hopefully the HHC just rolls with 7 or is able to find an 8th team. It’s a great conference across the board and a competitive conference. New Pal is clearly been the top dog in football but all sports are competitive in conference and has prepared a lot of teams for post season runs.

Honestly would be shocked if the HHC doesn't break apart sooner rather than later. Delta and New Castle are already openly talking about leaving and wouldn't be surprised to see Yorktown go with them. The Hancock County schools + Pendleton will likely need to join forces somewhere.

[crimsonace1]

28 minutes ago, Playmaker said:

Hopefully the HHC just rolls with 7 or is able to find an 8th team. It’s a great conference across the board and a competitive conference. New Pal is clearly been the top dog in football but all sports are competitive in conference and has prepared a lot of teams for post season runs.

It's one of the best volleyball conferences in the state, and while it's a bit top-heavy, the top is also one of the top softball conferences around. NP, MV, PH and Yorktown all have really, really good softball programs (and Shelbyville, too, but they're leaving) and G-C is often competitive. It's also a very good baseball league - multiple programs have made deep tourney runs - and pretty solid in boys basketball. 

[Playmaker]

1 hour ago, crimsonace1 said:

It's one of the best volleyball conferences in the state, and while it's a bit top-heavy, the top is also one of the top softball conferences around. NP, MV, PH and Yorktown all have really, really good softball programs (and Shelbyville, too, but they're leaving) and G-C is often competitive. It's also a very good baseball league - multiple programs have made deep tourney runs - and pretty solid in boys basketball. 

Also throw wrestling in there which is pretty good. Just a good conference overall!

[temptation]

16 hours ago, Rodney said:

I miss DT

Yep.  The mob chased him off.

[crimsonace1]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Yep.  The mob chased him off.

He chased himself off by misrepresenting himself, being rude to administrators and spending a decade-plus trying to take this place over - not to mention posting tons of inane "let's throw garbage against the wall and see what sticks" content. 

We're better off without pot-stirrers like him. 

[Boilernation]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Yep.  The mob chased him off.

Nah. He was a weasel who took his ball and left when he couldn't get his way, i.e., profit from this site. I'm surprised you and Muda feel the way you do. 

[Muda69]

40 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

Nah. He was a weasel who took his ball and left when he couldn't get his way, i.e., profit from this site. I'm surprised you and Muda feel the way you do. 

I support my friends.  You should too.

 

[Gipper]

This conference could work.  I like the pairing of county rivals Shelbyville and Triton Central.

[Gipper]

One more thing about DT: it’s very apparent he’s on Facebook’s Hoosier Prep Gridiron…

[crimsonace1]

2 hours ago, Gipper said:

This conference could work.  I like the pairing of county rivals Shelbyville and Triton Central.

Wide range of enrollments - two 4A teams with more than 1K students (but stagnant enrollments) in Shelbyville/Greenwood on one end and a few 2As with 500ish students in Speedway and Triton Central on the other. It feels like a bit of a marriage of convenience ... a few teams that felt like they couldn't compete in their current leagues, another that basically got kicked out of its conference because it was too good, and one that was a horrible geographic fit in its previous league and found something closer to home. 

The Hoosier Heritage and Mid-State are traditional *conferences* - similarly-sized schools (the HHC's enrollment spread pretty much mirrors the top and bottom of 4A) with similar academic/community profiles that had a lot in common. The Mid-State has begun to see suburbanization and growth hit some schools (Whiteland to a big degree, Franklin & Plainfield to a lesser degree), while others have largely been stagnant or declining (Mooresville, Martinsville) ... DC & PM are great competitive fits even though they're more recent additions. The MIC & Hoosier Crossroads are also great examples of traditional conferences of similar-size, similar-profile schools. However, Shelbyville felt it wasn't competitive in the HHC, and Greenwood had been badly outsized by the Mid-State (interestingly, Greenwood had wanted to go into the HHC in 2013, but that move was vetoed by their school board, who demanded they stay in the Mid-State with their traditional rivals). 

Marriage-of-convenience conferences have existed as long as conferences have. Some really work, some don't last very long (feels like the now four-team Sagamore is one of those, and will need to find some new teams or it may be short-lived). Heck, Conference Indiana has soldiered on as one in some form since it was formed as a merger of the remnants of the old Central Suburban & South Central conferences, but especially so since it traded THN & THS with the MIC for Pike & LC. 

[WestfieldRocks]

On 10/16/2024 at 8:25 PM, Boilernation said:

Occam's Razor. Has to be your scenario. They're landlocked. Impossible to grow. The new growth sections of Greenwood that are still getting developed are in the Whiteland and Center Grove districts. The Woodmen are waving the white flag and acknowledging life in the Mid State is going to continually get worse. 

So landlock, that is, no room to grow, is the main reason that Greenwood is not nearly as good as Center Grove? I've always wondered why that was since both schools would appear to be drawing from the same area.

[Gipper]

23 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

Wide range of enrollments - two 4A teams with more than 1K students (but stagnant enrollments) in Shelbyville/Greenwood on one end and a few 2As with 500ish students in Speedway and Triton Central on the other. It feels like a bit of a marriage of convenience ... a few teams that felt like they couldn't compete in their current leagues, another that basically got kicked out of its conference because it was too good, and one that was a horrible geographic fit in its previous league and found something closer to home. 

The Hoosier Heritage and Mid-State are traditional *conferences* - similarly-sized schools (the HHC's enrollment spread pretty much mirrors the top and bottom of 4A) with similar academic/community profiles that had a lot in common. The Mid-State has begun to see suburbanization and growth hit some schools (Whiteland to a big degree, Franklin & Plainfield to a lesser degree), while others have largely been stagnant or declining (Mooresville, Martinsville) ... DC & PM are great competitive fits even though they're more recent additions. The MIC & Hoosier Crossroads are also great examples of traditional conferences of similar-size, similar-profile schools. However, Shelbyville felt it wasn't competitive in the HHC, and Greenwood had been badly outsized by the Mid-State (interestingly, Greenwood had wanted to go into the HHC in 2013, but that move was vetoed by their school board, who demanded they stay in the Mid-State with their traditional rivals). 

Marriage-of-convenience conferences have existed as long as conferences have. Some really work, some don't last very long (feels like the now four-team Sagamore is one of those, and will need to find some new teams or it may be short-lived). Heck, Conference Indiana has soldiered on as one in some form since it was formed as a merger of the remnants of the old Central Suburban & South Central conferences, but especially so since it traded THN & THS with the MIC for Pike & LC. 

I’ve never been in favor of going half-way across the state to play a school of similar size.  Case in point: South Newton-Park Tudor.  I was on the north side of Indianapolis when I drove across PT.  Why SN had to drive all that way is beyond me…

Yes, I know the two aren’t in the same league, but just question why the game was scheduled.

[WCGrad92]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:17 AM, superjay said:

Good move by both schools.  Yes, travel on the south side of Indy sucks, but the schools in their current conferences are out growing them.  Plainfield, Whiteland, Franklin, and Decatur are all headed for 6A.  Mt Vernon, New Pal, Greenfield are all headed toward 5A.  Looking forward to playing some new teams.  Now we just need to get Monrovia and Shelbyville some turf.

It will be awhile before Monrovia ever goes to turf. I mean years.

[Boilernation]

4 hours ago, WestfieldRocks said:

So landlock, that is, no room to grow, is the main reason that Greenwood is not nearly as good as Center Grove? I've always wondered why that was since both schools would appear to be drawing from the same area.

Center Grove draws from a portion of Greenwood and a majority of Center Grove's district, i.e, the wealthier areas, is not in the Greenwood City Limits. This tiny carved out section of Greenwood feeds into Greenwood HS. The parts of Greenwood to the East and SE go to Whiteland and the areas to the West and SW go to Center Grove. The North is Perry Meridan and Southport. 

[crimsonace1]

On 10/25/2024 at 12:20 PM, WestfieldRocks said:

So landlock, that is, no room to grow, is the main reason that Greenwood is not nearly as good as Center Grove? I've always wondered why that was since both schools would appear to be drawing from the same area.

Center Grove, demographically, is very similar to Carmel. It's where the big houses, high-dollar neighborhoods are. The neighborhoods east of Greenwood in the Whiteland district are growing suburban areas, too, and probably will be very demographically similar to HSE or Westfield. 

Greenwood is a town of mostly smaller, older housing stock with a lot of apartment complexes/rental housing. It's still a nice suburb, but it's not the high-rent districts like CG and (to a lesser degree, Clark Township/Whiteland district to the east). 

[HoopsCoach]

On 10/24/2024 at 1:49 PM, crimsonace1 said:

Wide range of enrollments - two 4A teams with more than 1K students (but stagnant enrollments) in Shelbyville/Greenwood on one end and a few 2As with 500ish students in Speedway and Triton Central on the other. It feels like a bit of a marriage of convenience ... a few teams that felt like they couldn't compete in their current leagues, another that basically got kicked out of its conference because it was too good, and one that was a horrible geographic fit in its previous league and found something closer to home. 

The Hoosier Heritage and Mid-State are traditional *conferences* - similarly-sized schools (the HHC's enrollment spread pretty much mirrors the top and bottom of 4A) with similar academic/community profiles that had a lot in common. The Mid-State has begun to see suburbanization and growth hit some schools (Whiteland to a big degree, Franklin & Plainfield to a lesser degree), while others have largely been stagnant or declining (Mooresville, Martinsville) ... DC & PM are great competitive fits even though they're more recent additions. The MIC & Hoosier Crossroads are also great examples of traditional conferences of similar-size, similar-profile schools. However, Shelbyville felt it wasn't competitive in the HHC, and Greenwood had been badly outsized by the Mid-State (interestingly, Greenwood had wanted to go into the HHC in 2013, but that move was vetoed by their school board, who demanded they stay in the Mid-State with their traditional rivals). 

Marriage-of-convenience conferences have existed as long as conferences have. Some really work, some don't last very long (feels like the now four-team Sagamore is one of those, and will need to find some new teams or it may be short-lived). Heck, Conference Indiana has soldiered on as one in some form since it was formed as a merger of the remnants of the old Central Suburban & South Central conferences, but especially so since it traded THN & THS with the MIC for Pike & LC. 

This conference had a really balanced combination with the 6 original members.  Now they’ve screwed it up because AD’s have this obsession with 8 team conferences for the ideal football schedule.  7 built-in games with 2 non-conference games.  That desire for schedule simplicity often leads to competitive imbalance, enrollment disparity, poor geographic proximity, or all of the above.  As you said, this is clearly a marriage of convenience.  The 6 original members want 2 more members, and Greenwood and Shelbyville are eager to leave their current conferences for a home with the potential for more wins on their schedule.

I think this conference should consider adding 2 more schools, which would bring the conference to 10 teams - Danville and Lebanon.  It seems as though Tri-West didn’t want to bring them along to this new conference when the Bruins left the remnants of the Sagamore behind, or maybe Danville and Lebanon felt a bit betrayed and didn’t want to follow Tri-West.  I have no first hand knowledge of any hard feelings on either side, but I think this conference would be better in the long-run with Danville and Lebanon.  Adding those two schools could enable this conference to use a division format for football with the large schools in one division and the small schools in another.

Large School Division
Greenwood 1211

Shelbyville 1093

Lebanon 1033

Beech Grove 892

Danville 820

Small School Division

Indian Creek 636

Tri-West 606

Speedway 571

Monrovia 503

Triton Central 468

In football, play the 4 schools in your division plus 3 from the other division to keep a 7-game schedule for the AD’s.  One of the crossover games could be a protected game played every year, while the other 2 games could rotate among the other 4 cross division opponents.

[Boilernation]

2 hours ago, HoopsCoach said:

This conference had a really balanced combination with the 6 original members.  Now they’ve screwed it up because AD’s have this obsession with 8 team conferences for the ideal football schedule.  7 built-in games with 2 non-conference games.  That desire for schedule simplicity often leads to competitive imbalance, enrollment disparity, poor geographic proximity, or all of the above.  As you said, this is clearly a marriage of convenience.  The 6 original members want 2 more members, and Greenwood and Shelbyville are eager to leave their current conferences for a home with the potential for more wins on their schedule.

I think this conference should consider adding 2 more schools, which would bring the conference to 10 teams - Danville and Lebanon.  It seems as though Tri-West didn’t want to bring them along to this new conference when the Bruins left the remnants of the Sagamore behind, or maybe Danville and Lebanon felt a bit betrayed and didn’t want to follow Tri-West.  I have no first hand knowledge of any hard feelings on either side, but I think this conference would be better in the long-run with Danville and Lebanon.  Adding those two schools could enable this conference to use a division format for football with the large schools in one division and the small schools in another.

Large School Division
Greenwood 1211

Shelbyville 1093

Lebanon 1033

Beech Grove 892

Danville 820

Small School Division

Indian Creek 636

Tri-West 606

Speedway 571

Monrovia 503

Triton Central 468

In football, play the 4 schools in your division plus 3 from the other division to keep a 7-game schedule for the AD’s.  One of the crossover games could be a protected game played every year, while the other 2 games could rotate among the other 4 cross division opponents.

Lebanon and possibly Danville would likely outgrow that conference very quickly. Whitestown is planning on doubling their current population. A majority of that will fall inside of the Lebanon district as the area that feeds into Zionsville doesn’t have much room for more housing. 
 

Danville is supposedly expecting large growth as well. 

Edited October 29, 2024 by Boilernation

[HoopsCoach]

16 hours ago, Boilernation said:

Lebanon and possibly Danville would likely outgrow that conference very quickly. Whitestown is planning on doubling their current population. A majority of that will fall inside of the Lebanon district as the area that feeds into Zionsville doesn’t have much room for more housing. 
 

Danville is supposedly expecting large growth as well. 

I don’t think it’s a good practice to make decisions based upon predictions rather than facts.  The population growth has been predicted for over two decades for Lebanon and it just hasn’t happened.  Their enrollment in 2006 was 1024.  Last year, it was 1033.  It peaked at 1049 in 2023 and they had their lowest enrollment from 2006 to now in 2019 when it was 973.  I’m not saying it can’t happen, but Lebanon hasn’t grown that much.  Maybe they will, but that is a bridge to cross after it has been built.

Danville has followed a similar trend.  760 in 2006, 820 now.  Lowest was 739 in 2021 and highest was 827 in 2014.

[Boilernation]

1 hour ago, HoopsCoach said:

I don’t think it’s a good practice to make decisions based upon predictions rather than facts.  The population growth has been predicted for over two decades for Lebanon and it just hasn’t happened.  Their enrollment in 2006 was 1024.  Last year, it was 1033.  It peaked at 1049 in 2023 and they had their lowest enrollment from 2006 to now in 2019 when it was 973.  I’m not saying it can’t happen, but Lebanon hasn’t grown that much.  Maybe they will, but that is a bridge to cross after it has been built.

Danville has followed a similar trend.  760 in 2006, 820 now.  Lowest was 739 in 2021 and highest was 827 in 2014.

I hear yeah, but the growth isn't in Lebanon. It's in Whitestown and that town is booming with construction. Only a small portion of the south end of Whitestown feeds into Zionsville. The rest of Whitestown, where the growth is planned, feeds into Lebanon. I think it'll become a reality. The infrastructure is already being added North and West of Whitestown for more growth. Whether that moves the needle on Lebanon's enrollment will remain to be seen. 

[Muda69]

 

13 hours ago, Boilernation said:

I hear yeah, but the growth isn't in Lebanon. It's in Whitestown and that town is booming with construction. 

I thought Lebanon was basically out of water at this point, and has curtailed a lot of future expansion plans.  This LEAP district boondoggle northwest of the town has forced them to purchase water from neighboring utility companies while their is squabbling over a proposed water pipeline, some 40-50 miles long, being built from a Wabash river aquifer in Tippecanoe county to Boone county.  

Edited October 30, 2024 by Muda69

[Boilernation]

2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

 

I thought Lebanon was basically out of water at this point, and has curtailed a lot of future expansion plans.  This LEAP district boondoggle northwest of the town has forced them to purchase water from neighboring utility companies while their is squabbling over a proposed water pipeline, some 40-50 miles long, being built from a Wabash river aquifer in Tippecanoe county to Boone county.  

Interesting. I haven't heard about that. Whitestown gets their water from Citizens and has no issues that I'm aware of. I'm in Whitestown daily. I can see the infrastructure being put in all over the place to support new development as well as new neighborhoods getting built. This is all within the Lebanon district around Gold Club of Indiana (West of I-65 and West of Indianapolis Road) as well as to the east / north / near south of the old town of Whitestown. The neighborhoods that line Indianapolis Road feed into Zionsville as well as the neighborhoods east of I-65 and south of 500 South.

Here's a recent article about a new development proposal that mentions Whitestown is planning on going from 13-14K in population to 26-30K within 10 years. A huge percent of that growth has to come form the Lebanon district. There's not much left to develop in the Zionsville district. I have no idea how much that will increase Lebanon's enrollment.

https://fox59.com/news/110-million-retail-and-housing-development-proposed-in-whitestown/

[Muda69]

2 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

Interesting. I haven't heard about that.

Some links for you to peruse:

https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/waiting-for-water-new-construction-stops-as-lebanon-searches-for-new-sources-leap-district-economic-development/531-3d0056fc-2bea-49b9-8dc2-831decb7bb4c

https://clintoncountydailynews.com/lebanon-mayor-gentry-addresses-discussions-of-available-water/

https://indianacapitalchronicle.com/briefs/abundant-water-in-wabash-aquifer-for-leap-district-say-early-iedc-findings/

https://indianacapitalchronicle.com/2024/08/22/will-new-water-studies-sway-public-opinion-around-a-leap-pipeline-indiana-officials-hope-yes/