Temp’s Top 25 (After Week 7)

[23andCounting]

49 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Not saying they are not different this year.  They look very good.  But if success was based on numbers alone, they would have been a power the last 4-5 years and that hasn't been the case.  Same for some other large schools.

Not sure anyone on this forum ever suggested that enrollment "alone" determined ones success.

[BDGiant93]

9 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

Not sure anyone on this forum ever suggested that enrollment "alone" determined ones success.

I don't care if Carmel had 100 kids or 5500 kids...if they fielded this year's Carmel team, they'd still be a good team.

[23andCounting]

10 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

I don't care if Carmel had 100 kids or 5500 kids...if they fielded this year's Carmel team, they'd still be a good team.

Well, if they had 100 kids, they wouldn't have fielded this year's team. They fielded this team from a pool of 2500 boys.

[temptation]

1 hour ago, Bash Riprock said:

Not saying they are not different this year.  They look very good.  But if success was based on numbers alone, they would have been a power the last 4-5 years and that hasn't been the case.  Same for some other large schools.

This will actually likely piss you off in the opposite direction, but the Temp believes that a FRL population in the 25-40% range is best for an elite football program all other things considered equal.

Carmel's SES is perfect for country club sport domination but not so as much for the grit required in the ball sports.

Go ahead...tee off.

Edited October 8, 2025 by temptation

[Bash Riprock]

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

This will actually likely piss you off in the opposite direction, but the Temp believes that a FRL population in the 25-40% range is best for an elite football program all other things considered equal.

Carmel's SES is perfect for country club sport domination but not so as much for the grit required in the ball sports.

Go ahead...tee off.

no tee off....no emotions

I am sure you have examples that support your theory.  And we all have examples of "more wealthier" communities having outstanding football and other more "grittier" sports such as wrestling.  

Coach Moore during his Florida days coached in a more challenged income area and I think he might align with you to a certain degree.  (my opinion only)

[Bash Riprock]

1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

I'm telling you...eye test...Carmel is going to be a tough out for anyone, Brownsburg included.

I am not disagreeing....I'm confused.  

Simply pointing out that numbers don't guarantee success or Carmel would have been much stronger over the past 5 years.  They had difficulty in getting out of their sectional.  Other large Indy schools have had recent challenges and some programs such as Lake Central (large school) has never had much gridiron success.  Same for North Central in Indy.  Penn, formerly a dominant program, is not having the success they had in their former glory days.

No knock on Carmel this season at all by me. They look really strong.  We agree.

Edited October 8, 2025 by Bash Riprock

[temptation]

53 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I am not disagreeing....I'm confused.  

Simply pointing out that numbers don't guarantee success or Carmel would have been much stronger over the past 5 years.  They had difficulty in getting out of their sectional.  Other large Indy schools have had recent challenges and some programs such as Lake Central (large school) has never had much gridiron success.  Same for North Central in Indy.  Penn, formerly a dominant program, is not having the success they had in their former glory days.

No knock on Carmel this season at all by me. They look really strong.  We agree.

Feel like this is just the same circular discussion we have on here annually.

I’m not sure what the magic number is and I hear you on the North Central and Lake Central examples but there has to be a point of diminishing returns somewhere.

 

Edited October 8, 2025 by temptation

[Rodney]

8 minutes ago, temptation said:

Feel like this is just the same circular discussion we have on here annually.

I’m not sure what the magic number is and I hear you on the North Central and Lake Central examples but there has to be a point of diminishing returns somewhere.

 

annually? more like biweekly

[Bash Riprock]

14 hours ago, temptation said:

Feel like this is just the same circular discussion we have on here annually.

I’m not sure what the magic number is and I hear you on the North Central and Lake Central examples but there has to be a point of diminishing returns somewhere.

 

I don't disagree on the law of diminishing return theory. 

The comments always seem to go to Carmel and their massive population.  I get it.  But people are also not acknowledging that Carmel has struggled the last 5 years.  They haven't won a sectional in that period and have lost to schools much smaller.  Numbers are part of the story....but hardly the entire story.  I'd take a great coach and a great feeder system with Westfield numbers any day of the week.

[GOLDRUSH1985]

Good coaching trumps enrollment.

[temptation]

1 hour ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Good coaching trumps enrollment.

Always?

Nick Saban winning at Frankfort?

Seems pretty simplistic.

Edited October 9, 2025 by temptation

[BDGiant93]

2 hours ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Good coaching trumps enrollment.

How many State Championships did Rick Streiff win at North Central? Mark Haste? Kevin O'Shea? 

I'd say there are other things that must be at work there. But, that's just one example. Those are all fantastic football coaches.

Edited October 9, 2025 by BDGiant93

[Footballking16]

Coaching matters. The school we're discussing, Carmel, illustrates that. No clue what Herbert was doing the last several seasons, but says a lot when Kevin Wright comes rolling in off the street and reenergizes a team and program in a few short months. 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Coaching matters. The school we're discussing, Carmel, illustrates that. No clue what Herbert was doing the last several seasons, but says a lot when Kevin Wright comes rolling in off the street and reenergizes a team and program in a few short months. 

Meanwhile, Hebert at Noblesville...yikes.

[Rodney]

4 hours ago, temptation said:

Always?

Nick Saban winning at Frankfort?

Seems pretty simplistic.

Roll hotdogs

[temptation]

6 minutes ago, Rodney said:

Roll hotdogs

You can always tell the folks on here who have never stepped foot in a public school classroom.

[Rodney]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

You can always tell the folks on here who have never stepped foot in a public school classroom.

Like who

[temptation]

33 minutes ago, Rodney said:

Like who

Folks who diminsh the importance of poverty's effects on athletics.

[Coach Nowlin]

6 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

How many State Championships did Rick Streiff win at North Central? Mark Haste? Kevin O'Shea? 

I'd say there are other things that must be at work there. But, that's just one example. Those are all fantastic football coaches.

Don't forget the One Bad Hombre from Chatard and his recored previously before Chatard  

(I always wanted one of those Shirts ) 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 10/8/2025 at 3:13 PM, temptation said:

This will actually likely piss you off in the opposite direction, but the Temp believes that a FRL population in the 25-40% range is best for an elite football program all other things considered equal.

Carmel's SES is perfect for country club sport domination but not so as much for the grit required in the ball sports.

Go ahead...tee off.

I think Carmel has the ability to be the exception to the rule, with the amount of male athletes to pick from they should be able to field a team that competes on the regular for a state title. They have also shown that coaching does matter. 

Penn while has been a crap shoot since 2017 in football sees success in the other sports such as Baseball, minus last years debacle, and the Men's basketball teams have had recent success. Soccer this year is performing well. 

 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

7 hours ago, temptation said:

Always?

Nick Saban winning at Frankfort?

Seems pretty simplistic.

Geez took a crap Penn program and turned them into state contenders with little to no pure athletes. That is Dang good coaching.  

[BLACKGOLD2007]

7 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

How many State Championships did Rick Streiff win at North Central? Mark Haste? Kevin O'Shea? 

I'd say there are other things that must be at work there. But, that's just one example. Those are all fantastic football coaches.

They had a handful of winning seasons that still didn't get through sectionals. I think since 94 they had one team make it to regionals. I feel bad for complaining about the state Penn football now. 

[Rodney]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Folks who diminsh the importance of poverty's effects on athletics.

Here's a hot take

 

People who think it matters more than it does are just as dumb as people who think it doesn't matter.

 

Its just one piece of a giant puzzle that determines success 

Edited October 9, 2025 by Rodney

[temptation]

14 minutes ago, Rodney said:

Here's a hot take

 

People who think it matters more than it does are just as dumb as people who think it doesn't matter.

 

Its just one piece of a giant puzzle that determines success 

So why aren’t folks lining up to work at Arsenal Tech?  Solid enrollment, decent facilities, Indy population center, etc.

Why do they change coaches every 2-3 years?

Why have they had a 3 winning seasons this century?

Just can’t find their Eric Moore/Kevin Wright?

[Rodney]

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

So why aren’t folks lining up to work at Arsenal Tech?  Solid enrollment, decent facilities, Indy population center, etc.

Why do they change coaches every 2-3 years?

Why have they had a 3 winning seasons this century?

Just can’t find their Eric Moore/Kevin Wright?

Subject is dull and I will not participate, if you would like me to participate quit hollering about outliers and show me a graph of success over a decent time period of schools averaging 10-20% frl vs 20-30% frl vs 30-40% etc.

 

Screeching that this one outlier completely proves your point doesn't make it true.

 

If you were a potential great coach looking for a home in indiana would you call arsenal tech right away.

 

Im not even on the entire other side of your argument im just sick of seeing people act like its the biggest factor and being unwilling to prove it other than pointing at cases that are so far gone they may never recover