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Everything posted by JustRules
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They are commonly allowed because they are commonly done. They shouldn't surprise anyone. The team that does a sudden snap down only on 3rd and 3 or 4th and 2 or on a try is done specifically to get the defense to jump. If you want to do the sudden snap down on every down then it's less likely to draw attention on 4th and 4.
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Even for "new" crews there isn't a requirement to work semi-state the previous year. They just need to have worked a semi-state in a prior year with that referee. You could have worked a semi-state in 2018 and still be eligible to work state this year. The way it's worked out though there are only 3 or 4 "new" crews eligible each year so they are almost guaranteed to work state unless their vote turns out really bad. I think it would be wise for the IHSAA to have a more unbalanced split between new and returning crews in regional and semi-state if only to create more eligible crews. The only thing that changed this year is the number of schools who can vote for each crew. I believe all the other requirements and guidelines remain unchanged.
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The last part has been true as long as I've been doing this. They are eligible every 4 years for state and can advance up to one level each year. It's possible a crew could go state - sectional final - sectional final - 2nd round - state if the votes fall their way. But they couldn't go State - Sectional Final - Semi-State - Regional - State.
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Most crews get a first round game. These are usually announced the Friday of week 9. For following rounds they are usually related on the Monday or Tuesday before the game. No system is perfect and the Indiana system is far from perfect. There has been a change this year on the coach vote portion that could have an impact on many crews, but that will remain to be seen. Gone are the situations where some crews get 100+ votes and others get 20-30. As for the system being the reason officials are leaving, you realize there are only so many spots each week. No matter what system is used the same number of crews advance each week. Those who don't advance will be angry because they feel slighted. There is no system that would make everyone happy. That doesn't mean we shouldn't work through ISHOLA to get improvements to the system. But using the system as a reason for the change is not where we should focus.
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Are we in a new 2-year Success Factor window?
JustRules replied to XStar's topic in The Indiana High School Football Forum
If you are competing for sectional or regional champs in back to back years of a class you doing well in that class. Some of that has to do with the quality of teams in your sectional though. Not all sectionals are created equally. -
Lots of judgement involved in this play and a fuzzy video from a bad angle. I can't tell exactly where the ball is snapped but based on the near wide out I'm going to say it's probably about the B9. The first thing to look at is the contact between the slot receiver and DB. The first question is that contact is in the neutral zone or close? If it it's in the neutral zone it's legal regardless of who initiated contact. If it's beyond and you determine the defense initiated it, then there is no foul. But in this situations the receivers are always suspect because the receiver is trying to create separation however subtly. And especially in this case it's obvious that's what he would want to do because they throw to the back who receives the pass in the area this defender may have covered. The ball appears to be caught near the B8 which is about a yard beyond the assumed LOS. Only the LJ is going to be able to rule on that. Since the B threw a flag I assume he felt the receiver initiated the contact downfield and the pass was caught beyond the LOS. He would need help from the LJ who should provide information on the location of the block (if he saw it) and definitely on the location of the pass in regards to the LOS. This is where the other part of your comment becomes relevant. The fact he came on to the field and was not on the goal line when the runner got close to hit hurts his credibility. It's very likely he didn't notice where the pass was caught and where the block took place. OPI is definitely a supportable call based on the information provided, but as I said there are several combinations of judgement here. Ultimately that is what the officials are paid to do and they applied that judgement here. It's not an absolutely right or wrong call. He has to make the best call based on what he sees and the information provided by others.
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One of the reasons there is opposition is there are enough coaches who hold out hope they will draw another weak team in their sectional and get a tournament win. If they seed the sectionals it is much more likely they'll get paired with a top seeded team on the road and get blown out. I'm not sure how much of a factor that is, but I've heard coaches share this belief. Bobref has mentioned several times if they seed the sectional it will ultimately lead to a qualifying tournament. I think there is truth to that.
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Usually the week after the tournament ends.
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Mostly because the #1 or #2 team is done after week 1, but the 0-9 team who got a favorable draw gets to play another week. It's one thing if it happens on the field due to an upset. It's another if a 2 or 3 win team makes it to the sectional final because their side of the bracket had all 2 or 3 win teams. For very selfish reasons it's disappointing to get assigned to a sectional final game with a 9-2 team traveling to a 2-9 team. It's likely no fans will be there and you'll have a running clock in the second half. Where else besides Indiana high school sports are teams randomly assigned to opponent and location in a post-season tournament? Explain this to someone not from Indiana and they will think you are crazy and making it up. It's not logical. But it is what it is, and I'll be happy to get any tournament assignment I can get.
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Wilson Footballs and Wilson Prep Kit
JustRules replied to Punttheball's question in Officiating Forum
I think the only thing I would notice is if is extra tacky. The last item applied in the video was some kind of tacky spray. Did you possibly have too much of that on it, and it appeared to be some kind of foreign substance. As a reminder there is no such thing as a kicking ball in NFHS football. A ball you want to use for kickoffs should be willing to be used by your QB as well. He may end up with that ball in the course of a series. Teams will often try to indicate a certain ball is their kicking ball, but it's really just an approved ball they prefer to use for kicking plays if they have the ability to rotate it in. But never go to an official and say "this is our kicking ball." There are approved balls and unapproved balls. -
Unnecessary Roughness? Disqualification? No foul?
JustRules replied to Bobref's question in Officiating Forum
Bob...I would a whistle here does change thing because it would only occur if the official is ruling forward progress stopped. That's something the defender isn't necessarily going to know on his own. This wasn't a progress situation, but if it was and this suplex came well after the whistle, I'm more inclined to consider ejection. If it's live, he's just trying to make a tackle. If it's dead, he's doing something that is even more unnecessary and flagrant. I'm slow to eject so I doubt I would ever determine this ejectable if t's a live ball foul. The rest of this game plus another game is a huge penalty, and I want to make there is no doubt what he did was flagrant. This doesn't happen often so I can see a player not knowing a suplex is consider UNR. This specfiic act is not discussed much because it's rare so I assume there are a lot of officials who wouldn't know it either. -
Breaking the huddle with 12 if a foul in NCAA. Having 12 in the huddle is not. Unless they were there for more than 3 seconds without the 12th player leaving the field. It's not something to be overly technical about unless a team is getting a major advantage by doing it. If you have 12 participate in the play you definitely get it. If the defense is running off the field with the 12th player and they are not near the sideline call it. We had a play last week where the offense came from the sideline with 12. When I was getting my 2nd and 3rd counts I realized they were confused and trying to figure who had to leave. They did while doing my 3rd count and that player had to run from the other side of the field. It technically probably met the criteria of an illegal substitution but thanks to the substitution rule the umpire is able to stand over the ball to allow the defense to match up. And if the play clock expired during that time too bad for the offense.
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Referees trapped after game
JustRules replied to Offintheyard's topic in The Indiana High School Football Forum
Florida was a different situation. There schools/conferences contract with local associations and those associations are responsible for assigning games. The association involved refused to work so the schools/conference hired a different association. I assume the other association had enough officials to cover those games, but I do believe the original issue was resolved and they went back to their original arrangement. In Indiana schools contract directly with individual crews on a weekly basis. If there was any organized refusal to work games or just a natural loss of official availability the schools would be limited to the pool they are already pulling from. -
You Make the Call
JustRules replied to Goose Liver's topic in The Indiana High School Football Forum
Not completely true any longer with NCAA rules. The referee has the discretion to flag the offense head coach for an unsportsmanlike conduct foul and the hold and reset the game clock back to what it was before the snap. That would still give the defense the safety and half the distance on the subsequent free kick. The impetus was a series of plays a few years ago where the defense was continually holding the receivers. They were OK with the 10-yard penalty, but this burned clock and prevented the offense from scoring. The circumstances would have to be pretty obvious, and I don't believe it's been done often. But they do now have rule support. -
Correct. That's why I changed your answer from "R" to "any".
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Minor correction for you. I'll also add if R muffs it or touches it and K recovers, K will be awarded a new series from the spot of recovery.
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That would match the NCAA rule. The rules committee is often very adamant to not adopt NCAA rules. Unless they do. A good example was the number of players on either side of the kicker or the pop up kick. But even then they had to come up with a less logical enforcement because they don't want to copy NCAA.
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To answer the original question, the way to change it is to submit a rule change to the NFHS via the IHSAA rep, Robert Faulkens. These rule changes are all due to the NFHS prior to November 1 so you would need to get started now. You'll need to include justification, include all impacted rule references as well as all impacted case book plays. I'm pretty confident your rule change proposal will not have much success with the rules committee though. I believe similar rule changes have been proposed in the past and rarely make it out of committee or get much support from the full rules committee. 15 yards is a pretty serious penalty already and usually results in a first down even though not automatic. Looking over the past 2 seasons, my crew has had a total of 14 DPI fouls in 22 games. I don't know how many of those would match your description of a receiver getting abused well beyond 15 yards, but I don't remember any meeting that description. NCAA doesn't feel this needs to be more than 15 yards so I doubt NFHS will seriously consider it. We had one recently where the DPI took place 2 yards beyond the LOS but the penalty was 15 yards. I think that's a bigger issue with the current DPI rule. I also think it should be an automatic first down.
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You are correct on both statements. The first one should have been a touchback and the second one live ball as long as the ball hasn't crossed the goal line plane. The location of the feet is irrelevant in relation to the goal line.
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Teams are required to be out for the 3 minute warm-up after halftime. It's possible they could have been out at the end of the 3-minute warm-up but not the beginning and that's when the penalty would be enforced. That's likely what happened.
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New Manual Review (corrections?) / talking points
JustRules replied to Junior11's question in Officiating Forum
Anywhere between the 10 and 20 I think the BJ should have some flexibility in their starting position. From the 15-20 I would normally default to goal line but be ready to retreat quickly if you see a receiver heading to the end zone. If you read run or all routes are short stay put. If the ball is snapped 10-15 start on the end line (I'm OK with mid-way but prefer end line). If you read run move immediately to the goal line. You'll have time if you have a mobile BJ. If you read pass read the routes. If they run a screen pass you'll have time to move up to the goal line as if it was a run read. This is a little more complex mechanic and some crews won't be able to handle it, but it provides much better coverage for good crews. With a 5-man crew you will often have gaps in these plays but do your best to cover it. The BJ standing directly behind the U is not good. Had the same experience on the other 2 points you made. We weren't sure which mechanic to use on checking the ball so we went with U based on past experience. -
This is not something the officials track or enforce. I know the first answer is 6 quarters, but I'm not sure what they count as a quarter played. I believe at one time special teams didn't count but not sure if that's still true.
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I think the PoE for intentional grounding was because too many officials bail out an obvious attempt to throw an incomplete pass under the current rules. One that gets anger from the coaches that we get is when the QB sails the ball over the receiver's head on the sideline and it lands on the track. He's not trying to complete that pass and by current rules should be a foul. I'm pretty sure many crews incorrectly let this go. I'm a big fan of the experiment others states are using similar to NCAA/NFL rules and hope it eventually passes. But that doesn't mean I should officiate it like we already have it.
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Next Week's Scrimmages
JustRules replied to bigfish's topic in The Indiana High School Football Forum
The format is far fewer plays than a normal game so if they can't handle this number of plays I'm not sure how they would handle a game the following week.
