2024 6A Who can win it all?

[BTF]

7 minutes ago, Rodney said:

to bring nick Saban back into the conversation, 

 

if nick saban took over (insert random 1a school nobody has heard of) right now,

 

how many years do you who believe a feeder system is more important think it would take him to consistently win the 6a tournament with his excellent feeder system and program he would undoubtedly build,

 

 

Lol, there's my answer. 

[temptation]

26 minutes ago, Rodney said:

to bring nick Saban back into the conversation, 

 

if nick saban took over (insert random 1a school nobody has heard of) right now,

 

how many years do you who believe a feeder system is more important think it would take him to consistently win the 6a tournament with his excellent feeder system and program he would undoubtedly build,

 

 

Just hand him the magic CG binder and he’d be winning titles almost instantly.

[Muda69]

14 hours ago, BTF said:

Good post. Good to see you discussing football.

Thank you.

14 hours ago, BTF said:

 How come you removed me from the Out of Bounds Club?

I did no such thing.

[BTF]

Back on topic: 

Center Grove, Ben Davis, Warren Central, and Carmel will always be at the top of the food chain in 6A. So any sane person would pick one of those to win it all historically speaking. One might insert Brownsburg for Carmel in the current state of affairs. What makes 6A interesting is who's going to win a championship outside of the Big 4. As far as the south is concerned, it's going to be one of those four, period. If there's a contender outside of that field, I'll defer to someone from that region for that reference. My pick for 6A south is going to be Center Grove. 

The north is far more interesting in my opinion. No one has it on lock down. The south has a pool four, the north has a pool of nine. It's anyone's ball game. In the true north, you have to give consideration to Crown Point, Carroll, Penn, Snider, and even Elkhart (if you're buying into the hype.) Then throw the Northern Indy teams in and you've got Fishers, HSE, Westfield, and Carmel. Anyone who falls asleep on Noblesville or Homestead could be in for a surprise. Although I have high hopes for both Snider and Carroll this year, I'm going to roll with Craig Buzea in his fourth year Crown Point. They've gotten better in each of his first three seasons. If they get better in the fourth, the south's reign on the title could be in jeopardy. I'll take Crown Point over HSE for the semi-state championship.  

Gimmie Center Grove over Crown Point for the title. 

[temptation]

8 minutes ago, BTF said:

Back on topic: 

Center Grove, Ben Davis, Warren Central, and Carmel will always be at the top of the food chain in 6A. So any sane person would pick one of those to win it all historically speaking. One might insert Brownsburg for Carmel in the current state of affairs. What makes 6A interesting is who's going to win a championship outside of the Big 4. As far as the south is concerned, it's going to be one of those four, period. If there's a contender outside of that field, I'll defer to someone from that region for that reference. My pick for 6A south is going to be Center Grove. 

The north is far more interesting in my opinion. No one has it on lock down. The south has a pool four, the north has a pool of nine. It's anyone's ball game. In the true north, you have to give consideration to Crown Point, Carroll, Penn, Snider, and even Elkhart (if you're buying into the hype.) Then throw the Northern Indy teams in and you've got Fishers, HSE, Westfield, and Carmel. Anyone who falls asleep on Noblesville or Homestead could be in for a surprise. Although I have high hopes for both Snider and Carroll this year, I'm going to roll with Craig Buzea in his fourth year Crown Point. They've gotten better in each of his first three seasons. If they get better in the fourth, the south's reign on the title could be in jeopardy. I'll take Crown Point over HSE for the semi-state championship.  

Gimmie Center Grove over Crown Point for the title. 

Wow, well thought out and I actually think I agree completely.

How many chances does Brownsburg get?

Is it/should it be state finals or bust for the Carmel coaching staff?

Big seasons lie ahead for the trajectory of these two programs.

I think most other programs you mentioned can sell their administration/fanbases on an upward trajectory.

Edited June 21 by temptation

[temptation]

Let me also add while I am thinking about it…another 6A program I am buying big time right now is Lawrence North…

Love what Mallory is building there.

I don’t fancy them a state title contender as of now but think they could end up as the sectional 5 favorite by October.

[Southside]

12 minutes ago, temptation said:

Let me also add while I am thinking about it…another 6A program I am buying big time right now is Lawrence North…

Love what Mallory is building there.

I don’t fancy them a state title contender as of now but think they could end up as the sectional 5 favorite by October.

With the Success Factor changes last year, if LN was to win the Sectional 5 this year Cathedral would go back to 5A in 2025.

[temptation]

2 minutes ago, Southside said:

With the Success Factor changes last year, if LN was to win the Sectional 5 this year Cathedral would go back to 5A in 2025.

So everyone in 5A is now a Cathedral fan, lol?

[BTF]

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

So everyone in 5A is now a Cathedral fan, lol?

5A is certainly more interesting when Cathedral isn't there. If they were to ever drop down, it would be nice to see them square off with Snider, New Pal, or East Central when those programs are on an uptick. I like the direction Decatur Central is going in, very good coach. 

[temptation]

7 minutes ago, BTF said:

5A is certainly more interesting when Cathedral isn't there. If they were to ever drop down, it would be nice to see them square off with Snider, New Pal, or East Central when those programs are on an uptick. I like the direction Decatur Central is going in, very good coach. 

Once again, agree on all accounts.

[PDB26]

On 6/20/2024 at 7:29 AM, temptation said:

Westfield has started the model because they CAN.  They are “Center Grove Lite” just two decades behind.  
 

Growing population, great place to raise a family, similar demographics, commitment to the sport, etc (though Gilbert leaving gives me pause).

You think just any school, regardless of enrollment or socioeconomic status can just be handed Eric Moore’s A-Z binder and duplicate what CG has done?

Its not that simple.

As for “KG”, once again NO one has said enrollment is the ONLY factor but it is A factor…a BIG one.

A school of roughly 2500-3000 with less than 25 percent of its student body on free/reduced lunch can and has competed with a school of 4500 with 80 percent free/reduced lunch.

I am always asked why I continue to bring these numbers up and am often mocked but look at it like this…15-20 percent of students at a school of 80% free/reduced lunch don’t even have basic needs met.  Football, more broadly athletics, is simply way down the priority list for the majority of their student body…not to mention the financial burden.  The homes they go to every day after the 3pm bell are broken in many instances and they have taken on unnecessary burdens that teens shouldn’t have to.

The school with 2500-3000 and a free/reduced rate of less than 25 percent, has some kids in this boat but not nearly as many.  Look at their participation numbers in sports across the board.  With 4500 students, shouldn’t BD have 100 kids out for cross country, tennis and swimming?  It’s not just their “feeder systems” failing.

Bash, and others often downplay this and he actually gets offended as he views this as a slight to what CG has built and as a shot at their coaching staff when it’s simply rather common sense.

Well said.

I've said before that I think the number for a competitive program should be about 2500 if everything else is in place, but, to your point, that's likely applicable only to suburban schools––which is most of the top 20 in enrollment. The hard part is getting the right guy to take charge of a program from top to bottom and getting large communities to come together instead of drifting apart.

Now, to Carmel. It's tough for me, given what I think about enrollment at suburban schools, but Carmel has been so successful over the years that I'd expect them to get through their sectional more often than not and to make an appearance in a semi state every two or three years. It probably should be regional or bust for this stuff. I think finals or bust would be an imprudent stance for an administration to take. 

[temptation]

44 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

Well said.

I've said before that I think the number for a competitive program should be about 2500 if everything else is in place, but, to your point, that's likely applicable only to suburban schools––which is most of the top 20 in enrollment. The hard part is getting the right guy to take charge of a program from top to bottom and getting large communities to come together instead of drifting apart.

Now, to Carmel. It's tough for me, given what I think about enrollment at suburban schools, but Carmel has been so successful over the years that I'd expect them to get through their sectional more often than not and to make an appearance in a semi state every two or three years. It probably should be regional or bust for this stuff. I think finals or bust would be an imprudent stance for an administration to take. 

I do too, for a 6A south semi state school…not so much for a northern one.

[Bash Riprock]

20 hours ago, temptation said:

Just hand him the magic CG binder and he’d be winning titles almost instantly.

you forgot wealthier families.....

[Bash Riprock]

On 6/20/2024 at 2:19 PM, BTF said:

Hawley and Isaacs built a machine at Snider from the late 70's to the early 2000's. I can assure you, with 99% certainty, that BD, WC, and Carmel weren't doing anything better with their programs than Snider was. Snider pulled through one time. If they had a student population of 3500, the 1 turns into 10+. Again............"massive." You're not going to change my mind on this. And I'm going keep going back to the largest three schools having 90% of the titles. It's not coincidence. And yes, they had good coaching as well. You can't have one without the other. 

 

LOL...not trying to change anyone's mind....

Question.  Was Carmel, BD and WC always one of the top largest 3 schools in the state when they were winning state football championships in the largest class historically?  Was Indy North Central ever in the mix as one of the state largest schools?  (rhetorical question BTW)  How many titles in football did NC win when they were one of the 3 largest schools?

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/State Championship History.pdf

 

[temptation]

3 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

LOL...not trying to change anyone's mind....

Question.  Was Carmel, BD and WC always one of the top largest 3 schools in the state when they were winning state football championships in the largest class historically?  Was Indy North Central ever in the mix as one of the state largest schools?  (rhetorical question BTW)  How many titles in football did NC win when they were one of the 3 largest schools?

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/State Championship History.pdf

 

I love when you clock in, skip pages of information and respond emotionally with the same rhetoric.

I’ve discussed NC multiple times.

Where’s K-Mart?

[Rodney]

34 minutes ago, temptation said:

I love when you clock in, skip pages of information and respond emotionally with the same rhetoric.

I’ve discussed NC multiple times.

Where’s K-Mart?

at least people respond to you, nobody is willing to tell me how many years itl take old nick to takeover the 6a tourney with a 1a team

[Bash Riprock]

2 hours ago, temptation said:

I love when you clock in, skip pages of information and respond emotionally with the same rhetoric.

I’ve discussed NC multiple times.

Where’s K-Mart?

or...you could just learn to shut up and let other people respond to comments directed to them.

Bottom line, when he claims the top 3 current enrollment has won the majority of football state titles, they weren't always in the top 3 when they won state titles.  Other schools that were perhaps larger weren't winning gridiron titles.

Perhaps I don't skip anything...just grow weary of your constant hot wind.  Temps are warm enough outside.

Talk less...then when you do talk, people may take notice

[temptation]

44 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

or...you could just learn to shut up and let other people respond to comments directed to them.

Bottom line, when he claims the top 3 current enrollment has won the majority of football state titles, they weren't always in the top 3 when they won state titles.  Other schools that were perhaps larger weren't winning gridiron titles.

Perhaps I don't skip anything...just grow weary of your constant hot wind.  Temps are warm enough outside.

Talk less...then when you do talk, people may take notice

Nah, I’ll continue to call out ignorance when I see it.  You are an angry old man Bash…you haven’t always been that way.

You good?

NC is the outlier here as Warren, Carmel and BD (along with Penn which really hurts your argument) have been up there at the top forever.  
 

Also, this thread has now reached 8 pages with me doing most of the talking.

Eric Moore and Center Grove have built an amazing program from top to bottom and deserve all of the kudos in the world.

Happy now?

When you gonna answer @Rodney’s question about Saban?

Edited Friday at 11:42 PM by temptation

[Rodney]

On 6/21/2024 at 7:42 PM, temptation said:

Nah, I’ll continue to call out ignorance when I see it.  You are an angry old man Bash…you haven’t always been that way.

You good?

NC is the outlier here as Warren, Carmel and BD (along with Penn which really hurts your argument) have been up there at the top forever.  
 

Also, this thread has now reached 8 pages with me doing most of the talking.

Eric Moore and Center Grove have built an amazing program from top to bottom and deserve all of the kudos in the world.

Happy now?

When you gonna answer @Rodney’s question about Saban?

im willing to change it to Bellichek and allow a minimal amount of cheating

[gonzoron]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:57 PM, Bash Riprock said:

or...you could just learn to shut up

That's never gonna happen. Classic short guy syndrome.

[temptation]

2 hours ago, gonzoron said:

That's never gonna happen. Classic short guy syndrome.

 

[BTF]

On 6/21/2024 at 9:43 AM, temptation said:

How many chances does Brownsburg get?

Is it/should it be state finals or bust for the Carmel coaching staff?

I don't think I've ever felt for a program 120 miles away like I did for Brownsburg last year. I felt like they were the best team in the state, but unfortunately couldn't seal the deal. I can only imagine that propelled the underclassmen to work their butts off in in the off season. It will be interesting to see how they respond. If they drop 50 on Dwenger again by halftime in Week 1, they'll launch into my favorite to take state. 

John Hebert's had some mediocre seasons before, only to follow it up with a state title. I'm expecting a win in Week 1 against Homestead, per usual. Week 2 will tell us whether or not they are a contender. 

[BTF]

On 6/21/2024 at 9:50 AM, temptation said:

Let me also add while I am thinking about it…another 6A program I am buying big time right now is Lawrence North…

Love what Mallory is building there.

I don’t fancy them a state title contender as of now but think they could end up as the sectional 5 favorite by October.

Not going to hold my breath with Mallory. In eleven seasons, seven wins seems to be his plateau. But again. I'll defer to the Indy experts. 

On 6/21/2024 at 3:50 PM, Bash Riprock said:

LOL...not trying to change anyone's mind....

Question.  Was Carmel, BD and WC always one of the top largest 3 schools in the state when they were winning state football championships in the largest class historically?  Was Indy North Central ever in the mix as one of the state largest schools?  (rhetorical question BTW)  How many titles in football did NC win when they were one of the 3 largest schools?

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/State Championship History.pdf

 

Without documentation to back me up, I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. They've always been the largest schools. 

[PDB26]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Without documentation to back me up, I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. They've always been the largest schools. 

For some reason I'm thinking North Central was third largest when I was in high school. Carmel, BD, NC, and then Penn or WC at either four and five. I don't think that fact throws a broomstick into your spokes or anything, just thinking that's how it was.

On 6/21/2024 at 2:48 PM, temptation said:

I do too, for a 6A south semi state school…not so much for a northern one.

That's understandable. I suppose I'd change my mind if Westfield falls off, but having possible matchups with Westfield and HSE in the sectional and regional seems like reason enough to tamp down any expectation of annual state finals appearances. Those schools are large enough to negate any advantage that Carmel's enrollment might give them. Although, maybe the short-leash approach is less imprudent considering they've had Dullaghan, Belden, Moriarity, and Wright stalking the sidelines and could almost certainly get whoever they want in the future. 

[Boilernation]

3 hours ago, BTF said:

I don't think I've ever felt for a program 120 miles away like I did for Brownsburg last year. I felt like they were the best team in the state, but unfortunately couldn't seal the deal. I can only imagine that propelled the underclassmen to work their butts off in in the off season. It will be interesting to see how they respond. If they drop 50 on Dwenger again by halftime in Week 1, they'll launch into my favorite to take state. 

John Hebert's had some mediocre seasons before, only to follow it up with a state title. I'm expecting a win in Week 1 against Homestead, per usual. Week 2 will tell us whether or not they are a contender. 

Yeah, I too thought Brownsburg was the best team last year. Feels like they are Georgia pre-Kirby Smart. interesting early season test for Brownsburg and Bishop Dwnger.  Same for Carmel vs. Homestead. We'll see if Carmel is officially no longer a top dog in Hamilton County. Wasn't Homestead really young last year? IIRC, they had a Sophomore at QB and a lot of younger starters when I saw them play Noblesville.

With Snider in Sectional 2 we could see a few Duneland vs. SAC playoff games. Any DAC team that loses should ask themselves if the SAC team was better prepared by scheduling an Indy team. Unless that team from Arizona that Crown Point is playing is really good. I have no clue about them.

Edited Monday at 03:22 AM by Boilernation