2024 Summer Olympics

[gonzoron]

7 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

What is a woman?

A person whose birth certificate says female and was born with a vagina.  Like this woman boxer from Algeria competing in Women's Boxing. 

[Irishman]

12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

*Yawn*

What is a woman?

 

So has a representative of the IOC,  preferably a medical doctor, confirmed this assertion?

So you DO think all those people in Algeria lied.

The IOC took over direct governing responsibilities because of the IBA's ties to the Russian government. She met every standard the IOC has in place. 

[Irishman]

The implication here is "hey let's cheat so we can get ONE gold medal in the 66kg weight class". 

It's laughable at best. 

[Muda69]

1 minute ago, Irishman said:

So you DO think all those people in Algeria lied.

"Trust, but verify."  - Ronald Reagan.

 

3 minutes ago, Irishman said:

The IOC took over direct governing responsibilities because of the IBA's ties to the Russian government. She met every standard the IOC has in place. 

Who are we to question the IOC?  They are a stand-up organization, right?  

If they say this person is a human female, then that is good enough for me.

 

 

[Irishman]

3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

"Trust, but verify."  - Ronald Reagan.

 

Who are we to question the IOC?  They are a stand-up organization, right?  

If they say this person is a human female, then that is good enough for me.

 

 

The reality is the only thing that would satisfy you at this point is if she showed you her privates. You ask if the IOC has verified it, then in your next post claim they cannot be trusted. The fact is the only person you trust here to reach the conclusion that she is a female is you alone. 

[gonzoron]

7 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

"Trust, but verify." 

How appropriate. Using a Russian proverb

[Muda69]

14 minutes ago, Irishman said:

The reality is the only thing that would satisfy you at this point is if she showed you her privates. 

No. I trust the IOC.  If you erroneously read something else in my previous statement that is your hang up, not mine.

 

[Irishman]

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

No. I trust the IOC.  If you erroneously read something else in my previous statement that is your hang up, not mine.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Who are we to question the IOC?  They are a stand-up organization, right?  

 

 

Yeah, what the hell was I thinking reading your post like that? silly me. 

[Muda69]

28 minutes ago, Irishman said:

 

Yeah, what the hell was I thinking reading your post like that? silly me. 

I'm glad you made such an admission.  It's the first steps towards healing and change.

 

[Bash Riprock]

6 hours ago, Irishman said:

Here are the issues though.....

1. She has always been a female; raised and lived as one her entire life. 

2. Algeria is 97% Sunni Muslim. It's illegal to be trans. The Algerian government issued her a passport. 

3. 9 boxers have beaten her in her amateur career, so what does it make them? More manly? Or just better boxers? 

4. Her condition does produce a higher level of testosterone in her than other females. 

5. Work in a public setting long enough, especially a school and you see there is more to gender than just xy and xx. There are a number of males who are very feminine, and vice versa...to the point that if I brought a stranger in to see and said guess; it would be difficult to do. 

6. Before the usual suspects attack me over this, I am not one who supports trans athletes competing with others of that gender, especially trans females. There are clear advantages. 

7. The Italian boxer left herself wide open for that shot to the face.

Khelif was disqualified just last year from the Women's World Boxing Championships by the International Boxing Association for failing a gender eligibility test.  (elevated levels of testosterone)  The IOC has made light of that position, but have not seen the science behind their decision.  All I have read is that the IOC considers the listed sex on their passports and if so, that is hardly scientific.

While it may not be her fault for having intersex traits, that fact is she does, and that leads to physical differences.  Those differences can absolutely lead to severe injury.  

 

[Irishman]

17 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Khelif was disqualified just last year from the Women's World Boxing Championships by the International Boxing Association for failing a gender eligibility test.  (elevated levels of testosterone)  The IOC has made light of that position, but have not seen the science behind their decision.  All I have read is that the IOC considers the listed sex on their passports and if so, that is hardly scientific.

While it may not be her fault for having intersex traits, that fact is she does, and that leads to physical differences.  Those differences can absolutely lead to severe injury.  

 

I am aware of that.....but the IBA was also compromised with its ties to Russian money coming in along with other scandals that posed a serious threat to international boxing as a whole. It's partly why they were banned by the IOC prior to the Tokyo games. That said, Khelif was eligible by IBA standards in the lead up to the Tokyo games and was a silver medalist in the 2022 world championships. If the IOC tested her and she had elevated levels of testosterone and was DQ'd I would have no issue with that. 

The challenge in testing testosterone levels too is that elite female athletes tend to have higher than normal levels of it being naturally produced in their systems. 

As far as the passport goes. Algeria granted her a passport. As strict as they are, while it's easy to say it's not very scientific, it is based on what is on her birth certificate. 

[Bash Riprock]

15 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I am aware of that.....but the IBA was also compromised with its ties to Russian money coming in along with other scandals that posed a serious threat to international boxing as a whole. It's partly why they were banned by the IOC prior to the Tokyo games. That said, Khelif was eligible by IBA standards in the lead up to the Tokyo games and was a silver medalist in the 2022 world championships. If the IOC tested her and she had elevated levels of testosterone and was DQ'd I would have no issue with that. 

The challenge in testing testosterone levels too is that elite female athletes tend to have higher than normal levels of it being naturally produced in their systems. 

As far as the passport goes. Algeria granted her a passport. As strict as they are, while it's easy to say it's not very scientific, it is based on what is on her birth certificate. 

I understand the history of corruption, but doesn't mean they took an unscientific approach to confirm excessive levels of testosterone.  Has the IOC applied any science to their decision making and sorry...a passport is not even close to science.  I understand how a passport issuance works.

The fact remains regardless is that Khelif has intersex traits, and that additional level of testosterone matters.  The playing fields need to be level...that's just called fairness of competition.  Perhaps you'd be ok for your daughter to step in the ring with her...I absolutely would not.

We have seen segments of society change when it comes to female competition....it is not impossible for me to see the IOC change as well and would not be shocked if science is discarded in the establishment of a position.  The IOC is absolutely not void of politics.

Edited August 2, 2024 by Bash Riprock

[Irishman]

Just now, Bash Riprock said:

I understand the history of corruption, but doesn't mean they took an unscientific approach to confirm excessive levels of testosterone.  Has the IOC applied any science to their decision making and sorry...a passport is not even close to science.  I understand how a passport issuance works.

The fact remains regardless is that has intersex traits, and that additional level of testosterone matters.  The playing fields need to be level...that's just called fairness of competition.  Perhaps you'd be ok for your daughter to step in the ring with her...I absolutely would not.

We have seen segments of society change when it comes to female competition....it is not impossible for me to see the IOC change as well and would not be shocked if science is discarded in the establishment of a position.  The IOC is absolutely not void of politics.

Ok, so the passport...issued by a devout Sunni Muslim government that says she is female, in a country where saying otherwise is illegal. 

If there was a reliable test to use to determine at what level it becomes an unfair advantage, I am fine with that. If there were a test in place and she were DQ'd for elevated levels, ok. 

If my daughter were one of the 9 boxers who has defeated her, sure 🙂

I agree the IOC is susceptible to politics. It often times uses its selections thinking it can bring about change. Beijing being awarded the games was a huge debacle. 

Point of clarification that I just saw. She was not DQ'd for elevated levels of testosterone by the IBA last year. She was banned due to having XY Chromosomes. 

[Irishman]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2024/08/01/olympic-gender-testing-boxers/74615354007/

So they were banned last year, but were eligible in 22 with the same DNA and the years prior. So it's not known that her testosterone level was too high, or high enough to be an unfair advantage. 

FTA: IBA president Umar Kremlev said DNA tests “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded." 

[Muda69]

On other Olympic sports.  I still can't take race/speed walking seriously:  https://www.nbcnewyork.com/paris-2024-summer-olympics/race-walking-rules-events-format/5657977/

 

[Coach Nowlin]

#CHUKIT to the FINALS tomorrow seeded 9th. 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

On other Olympic sports.  I still can't take race/speed walking seriously:  https://www.nbcnewyork.com/paris-2024-summer-olympics/race-walking-rules-events-format/5657977/

 

No one can.

[Bash Riprock]

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

Ok, so the passport...issued by a devout Sunni Muslim government that says she is female, in a country where saying otherwise is illegal. 

If there was a reliable test to use to determine at what level it becomes an unfair advantage, I am fine with that. If there were a test in place and she were DQ'd for elevated levels, ok. 

If my daughter were one of the 9 boxers who has defeated her, sure 🙂

I agree the IOC is susceptible to politics. It often times uses its selections thinking it can bring about change. Beijing being awarded the games was a huge debacle. 

Point of clarification that I just saw. She was not DQ'd for elevated levels of testosterone by the IBA last year. She was banned due to having XY Chromosomes. 

Perhaps this NBC below source was incorrect.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/paris-2024-summer-olympics/this-is-not-a-transgender-issue-olympic-official-clarifies-after-boxer-controversy-in-paris/3509658/

BTW, many countries have flat out cheated to gain advantages in world competitions...many.  Repeatedly.  So I would never be surprised if a country chose to dope or fabricate a document.  It is not out of the realm of possibility.  

Why was Khelif disqualified from the world championships?

Khelif was disqualified from the 2023 world championships after failing unspecified and untransparent eligibility tests for women’s competition from the now-banned International Boxing Association, which cited high levels of testosterone in her system.

I do appreciate that this issue is complicated and controversial, including testing and the levels of higher T that truly provide an advantage in women's sports.  I am just saying its time to establish the upper limit, based on science, that concludes an advantage, and then test for that level.  And do this before someone gets really hurt.  Losing a track event is one thing...taking a blow to the head is completely different.

https://www.bioscientifica.com/news/press/setting-fair-regulations-for-top-female-athletes-that-have-naturally-higher-testosterone-levels/

Prof Hirschberg says, “Sporting success should come from a combination of talent and dedication. In circumstances where women have 10 to 20 times higher testosterone levels than normal they may have a powerful advantage. Elite female athletes want to compete fairly against other women. However, we must also appreciate that drawing a line on an acceptable level is difficult, our recommended limit makes allowances for women with mild conditions like PCOS, whilst ruling out those with more severe conditions that hugely increase testosterone levels and promote a more male-like physiology.”

[Irishman]

I would agree if there is a way to effectively test, then do it. The article references IAAF requirements. Those were dropped in 2021 due to side effects and other complications. The challenge though is the varying degrees of it in female athletes......cannot really have a 1 size fits all. If there was a way to gauge a normal range for one and compare it to where they are prior to the start of the Olympics or other world championships, maybe??? These athletes train year round though and the training cycles they go through would make it difficult to find a good time or place in their training. The next thought would be to see a consistent level prior to a given competition. Don't know the answers there; it's slightly above my pay grade. 

I would also agree that many countries have cheated to gain medals. But are those countries secular? or strict Muslim countries like Algeria? I would not put it past them to cheat within a given sport, but to have a male compete as a female? My limited knowledge of Muslims still tells me that is a HUGE no.  The cheating aspect is why I am not a supporter of trans athletes......full disclosure, trans women competing against women. I say that because I think we all agree there just would not be an advantage for a trans man to compete against men because of the disadvantages. Lia Thomas comes to mind. I think that whole thing was "her" trying to achieve at a higher level than what they competed at as a male. 

That said, like you, I too think these are important discussions to have. Far too long the thinking has been over simplified; that xx simply means someone is female, and xy means they are male. But there are enough cases where that is not the case and needs to be recognized. It becomes a political hot topic when a candidate mentions gender affirming care. As the article you mentioned shows there are other health issues that come with people who happen to be xy with female anatomical features, and xx with male anatomical features. 

[Irishman]

This was a great race finish to watch. Incredible effort to get to 3rd. 

https://www.nbcolympics.com/videos/olympic-record-plus-american-bronze-epic-10000m-final?utm_tags=oly4425 

 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

This was a great race finish to watch. Incredible effort to get to 3rd. 

https://www.nbcolympics.com/videos/olympic-record-plus-american-bronze-epic-10000m-final?utm_tags=oly4425 

 

Unreal.  Just the third American medal in the 10k since 1912 and the first since 1956.

4:18 mile pace for 6.2 miles…

25 straight laps averaging 64.5 seconds each.

Edited August 3, 2024 by temptation

[Irishman]

This was a really impressive performance. Even though the event is young; to break the world by almost a second is crazy. 

https://apnews.com/article/2024-olympics-mixed-relay-record-c2a4a915267cc1e73ce3a200fd3e57e5 

[Irishman]

 

[temptation]

21 minutes ago, Irishman said:

This was a really impressive performance. Even though the event is young; to break the world by almost a second is crazy. 

https://apnews.com/article/2024-olympics-mixed-relay-record-c2a4a915267cc1e73ce3a200fd3e57e5 

And they weren’t even pushed…and it was a semi-final.

[Irishman]

1 minute ago, temptation said:

And they weren’t even pushed…and it was a semi-final.

And as the article said, they may break the record again in the finals.