Coaches Confidential: Is tournament success factor working? What about private schools?

[Muda69]

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2024/08/12/ihsaa-football-coaches-tournament-success-factor-private-schools-separate-class-indiana-high-school/73925162007/

Quote

We asked four questions for our “Coaches Confidential” series, which grants anonymity to high school football coaches in Central Indiana. The third of the four asks:

Is the IHSAA’s tournament success factor working? Is there a better way to classify teams?

 

“The current success factor along with the possibly more equally distributed enrollment qualifications would be the ideal plan in my opinion.”

***

“I think it’s doing its part in working. However, I’d like the IHSAA to look into doing five classes of 64 teams and doing a 1A/1B with enrollment disparities among some of the teams.”

***

“I like the success factor.”

***

"No, you still have limited movement and the same teams playing deep in the tournament year in and year out.”

***

“I think, for the most part.”

***

“I think so … I don’t know a better way of doing it. More schools are going to get more opportunities.”

***

“I believe it’s working. No system will ever be perfect for everyone. Only issue seems to still be with parochial schools, but only way to truly fix that is to put them into their own class.”

***

“I think in a way the success factor works. I still believe private schools should have a multiplier on their enrollment. In football, private schools have won almost half the state championships the last 10 years.”

***

“I believe it is working. I do think maybe accelerating it to one year rather than two-year cycle may help.”

***

“Yes, I believe it is working.”

***

“The bounce back after those two years up is the part that is not exactly working like a charm. Seems like there is a lot of movement for those same teams. I think that the reclassification cycle is too quick. Maybe every four years instead of two.”

***

“If a school reaches the point level in a two-year span they should move up. Not fair for some teams to be able to win state in their class three years in a row and other teams win it only two years in a row just because they win it in an off classified year (note: the rule has been changed to a rolling two-year cycle with teams moved each year).”

***

“I think that it is working well. However, I would like to see all parochial schools be required to play at least one class above their classification based on their school enrollment. I believe that may be happening already due to choice or success factor, but I think that may even things out.”

***

“No. Private schools should play in their own tournament.”

***

“Having coached at a small public school, sometimes you get a great couple classes together, then the talent well suddenly dries up. I’m not a fan of seeing a good small, public school get penalized because they happened to have a few good classes in consecutive years.”

***

“I believe it is. As a private school coach, I think it is a great tool to maintain competitive balance in all the classes.”

***

“I think the current format is successful.”

***

“I believe it is working as well as it could be.”

***

“Great question. I believe that the success factor has done what it was intended to do. Is it perfect? No. Can it be improved as we move forward? Yes. The classification system is not perfect and the elephant in the room will always be the private schools. How do you classify them vs. a public school who may have the same number of students, but the backgrounds of those students are 100% different?”

***

“In some ways, yes. Not without a massive overhaul of the system (better way to classify).”

***

“All the private schools just play their own class.”

***

“Like anything, it is good and bad. I don’t agree with penalizing younger kids for the success of older kids who are no longer there.”

***

“I think it has helped.”

***

“Sort of, but they will always win if they really want to. Only way to solve it is to take them out of the tourney and let them have their own (large and a small state championship). To those who like to say they don’t have an advantage, then why do we have a success factor and why do private schools not win when they go public? Many states split them – it’s the only way to actually do it the right way.”

***

“I don’t think so. I believe it should be on a four-year rolling scale.”

***

“I do think it is working. However, I would be in favor of teams moving down if they had a long period of losing. For example, if you have inner city schools that are classified 4A-6A but have resources and participation numbers as if they were 2A. What can be done to help those programs?”

***

“Yes, I think it’s working. I am a big fan of the success factor.”

***

“All schools should have the same autonomy. We should classify based on more factors than enrollment if schools can move up and down. Facilities could be included. If a school is on the border of 2A or 3A but they don’t have a stadium, that should be factored. Also, roster size should be included. Some schools have 600 students but 200 football players. Some schools have 900 students but only have 40 athletes. We should do the average team size from the last two or three years.”

***

“Concept works. Should be a four-year time period to earn points rather than two. One good class has caused schools to move up that should not have had to do so.”

***

“I do think it is working as it was intended.”

“Yes, I think this one of the best things we have done.”

***

“It does help expect when Lutheran bumps up to 2A. In our regional. Lol.”

***

“The success factor is working and there is no better way to classify teams in Indiana. It’s a numbers game and there are some places in Indiana where district enrollments are exploding and some areas where growth is stagnant or decreasing. Assessing enrollments every two years is the best way to try and move teams around and deal with the increasing or decreasing enrollments.”

***

“No, private schools should have double enrollment or have private school tournament.”

***

“Private schools all play in 5A and 6A tourney.”

***

“I think it’s unfair to the public schools. If every private played up one class that would be a solution. I should note that so many kids are switching schools now that the advantages people perceived for the privates are not as great as many think.”

***

“The schools need to be classified based on enrollment and should be re-evaluated every two years to assess if the school has grown in attendance.”

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“We believe the current system is working. There could be some potential adjustments but for the most part the current system works.”

***

“Yes, I think so. I don’t know what the points need to accumulate only in the realignment cycle. For example, Indianapolis Lutheran won state three years in a row. I feel like if a team wins two years in a row, they get bumped up.”

Nice to see ideas like multipliers, automatic bump-ups, and a separate class for p/p's are still being brought up by coaches.

And this quote:

Quote

“All schools should have the same autonomy. We should classify based on more factors than enrollment if schools can move up and down. Facilities could be included. If a school is on the border of 2A or 3A but they don’t have a stadium, that should be factored. Also, roster size should be included. Some schools have 600 students but 200 football players. Some schools have 900 students but only have 40 athletes. We should do the average team size from the last two or three years.”

***

Fits schools like Frankfort High School to a T.    

A true system of promotion and relegation (search for older posts on the subject) is a viable solution.

 

[Footballking16]

Didn't realize the coaching fraternity had so many whiners. Yikes. 

[temptation]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Didn't realize the coaching fraternity had so many whiners. Yikes. 

“The school of 900 with 40 athletes just needs to work harder and develop a culture.”

 

- @Footballking16

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, temptation said:

“The school of 900 with 40 athletes just needs to work harder and develop a culture.”

 

- @Footballking16

The success factor should be of the least concern for the coach at a school with 900 students and only 40 football players. 

[BTF]

17 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Didn't realize the coaching fraternity had so many whiners. Yikes. 

C'mon. Easy to say coming from a program that can pull from a metro area of 2.5 million. Let's give some of these rural schools a break. 

[temptation]

9 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

The success factor should be of the least concern for the coach at a school with 900 students and only 40 football players. 

What should their primary concern be?

I am anxious to hear Cathedral guys’ opinion.

[BTF]

12 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

The success factor should be of the least concern for the coach at a school with 900 students and only 40 football players. 

So tell me how schools like East Noble and Cathedral are on a level playing field? Kendallville city proper has 10,222 residents (2022) and a small portion of the surrounding area. Damn, Cathedral can pull from anywhere. And honestly, if I lived in Indy and my son had potential to go to the next level, he's not going to ANY of the public schools. He's going to Cathedral, Roncalli, or Chatard. First choice would be Cathedral. 

[temptation]

9 minutes ago, BTF said:

C'mon. Easy to say coming from a program that can pull from a metro area of 2.5 million. Let's give some of these rural schools a break. 

Indy Washington and Arsenal Tech are “metro Indy”.

Tech has approximately 2500 students and according to MaxPreps had about 60 kids on the roster last year.

Indy Washington had about 650 students and had about 35.

Chatard has about the same enrollment as Washington and had over 125…

There HAS to be some other factor that I just can’t put my finger on…

Edited August 12, 2024 by temptation

[BTF]

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Indy Washington and Arsenal Tech are “metro Indy”.

Tech has approximately 2500 students and according to MaxPreps had about 60 kids on the roster last year.

Indy Washington had about 650 students and has about 35.

There HAS to be some other factor that I just can’t put my finger on…

Hard for me to chime in not knowing about either of those two programs. 

[Footballking16]

Just now, BTF said:

So tell me how schools like East Noble and Cathedral are on a level playing field? Kendallville city proper has 10,222 residents (2022) and a small portion of the surrounding area. Damn, Cathedral can pull from anywhere. And honestly, if I lived in Indy and my son had potential to go to the next level, he's not going to ANY of the public schools. He's going to Cathedral, Roncalli, or Chatard. First choice would be Cathedral. 

Cathedral literally hasn't played in their technical enrollment classification since the inception of the success factor lol. They've spent half their time playing 2 classes up.

And why do you always drum up this stupid hypothetical up about drawing from 2.5 million people? Cathedral draws from who applies. And with over a 90% acceptance rate, that number is closer to 500, not 2.5 million. 

[Footballking16]

7 minutes ago, temptation said:

Indy Washington and Arsenal Tech are “metro Indy”.

Tech has approximately 2500 students and according to MaxPreps had about 60 kids on the roster last year.

Indy Washington had about 650 students and has about 35.

Chatard has about the same enrollment as Washington and had over 125…

There HAS to be some other factor that I just can’t put my finger on…

What is the relevance to the success factor here? I'd be more worried about getting kids to come out and play over what class/tournament Chatard, Cathedral, Roncalli play in. 

Edited August 12, 2024 by Footballking16

[temptation]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

What is the relevance to the success factor here? I'd be more worried about getting kids to come out and play than what class/tournament Chatard, cathedral, Roncalli play in. 

I’m just using your posting history against you here to rile you up, that’s all.  
 

Look, I am about as anti “woke”/equity as it comes but it seems that you (and many others on here) ignore the reality that many of today’s kids face because you’ve never experienced it.

This article suggests that things other than enrollment should dictate classes and I’ve often floated that same idea around here.

WHY these programs can’t just “get kids to come out and play” is the root of the problem.

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, temptation said:

I’m just using your posting history against you here to rile you up, that’s all.  
 

Look, I am about as anti “woke”/equity as it comes but it seems that you (and many others on here) ignore the reality that many of today’s kids face because you’ve never experienced it.

This article suggests that things other than enrollment should dictate classes and I’ve often floated that same idea around here.

WHY these programs can’t just “get kids to come out and play” is the root of the problem.

Not disagreeing with you, but how does putting Cathedral, Chatard, insert any P/P in their own tournament or adding a multiplier help a school like Tech or Washington? It doesn't. You know that and I know that. The success factor benefits a handful of programs a class a year. Teams who perennially go 0-9, 1-8 aren't just going to magically become good by eliminating the P/P's. And for the coach of a program like that to rail against the success factor or advocate for the P/P's to play in the own tournament reeks of whining. 

Edited August 12, 2024 by Footballking16

[temptation]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Not disagreeing with you, but how does putting Cathedral, Chatard, insert any P/P in their own tournament or adding a multiplier help a school like Tech or Washington? It doesn't. You know that and I know that. The success factor benefits a handful of programs a class a year. Teams who perennially go 0-9, 1-8 aren't just going to magically become good by eliminating the P/P's.

True.  Was just speaking to the “Cathedral has done it, why can’t others” stance you’ve taken on here in the past.

Edited August 12, 2024 by temptation

[BTF]

6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Not disagreeing with you, but how does putting Cathedral, Chatard, insert any P/P in their own tournament or adding a multiplier help a school like Tech or Washington? It doesn't. You know that and I know that. The success factor benefits a handful of programs a class a year. Teams who perennially go 0-9, 1-8 aren't just going to magically become good by eliminating the P/P's. And for the coach of a program like that to rail against the success factor or advocate for the P/P's to play in the own tournament reeks of whining. 

I think putting the P/P's all in the same tournament is an awful idea. Chances are that Cathedral will run off 8+ state titles before they are upended. And per your other post, Cathedral is where they belong in 6A. They're not there because they have the exact same resources as the other 4A schools. Take it for what it's worth. Be proud that the program you follow is good enough to roll with the big boys. As a Snider fan, I find rumbling with 6A teams more interesting than and easier path in 5A. But that's just me. 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, BTF said:

I think putting the P/P's all in the same tournament is an awful idea. Chances are that Cathedral will run off 8+ state titles before they are upended. And per your other post, Cathedral is where they belong in 6A. They're not there because they have the exact same resources as the other 4A schools. Take it for what it's worth. Be proud that the program you follow is good enough to roll with the big boys. As a Snider fan, I find rumbling with 6A teams more interesting than and easier path in 5A. But that's just me. 

Cathedral can compete in 6A, you won't get an argument from me there. But belonging in 6A permanently just so a few more public schools can win the 4A and 5A title? I have an issue with that, especially when the only requirement is beating two of North Central, Lawrence North, and Lawrence Central in back to back weeks. At the end of the day, Cathedral has 1000 students playing 2 classes up against schools 3-4x their enrollment. That has to count for something. 

[BTF]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Cathedral can compete in 6A, you won't get an argument from me there. But belonging in 6A permanently just so a few more public schools can win the 4A and 5A title? I have an issue with that, especially when the only requirement is beating two of North Central, Lawrence North, and Lawrence Central in back to back weeks. At the end of the day, Cathedral has 1000 students playing 2 classes up against schools 3-4x their enrollment. That has to count for something. 

I guess if they don't win tournament games in 6A they'll bump back down. The problem is, they continue to win at that level. I've said it in the past and I'll say it again. It's sweeter to win once every one or two decades knowing you did it against the best than winning multiples at the lower level. Of course I'd think differently if I were an administrator at a school since deep tournament runs drive the the financial health of the athletic department. Personally, if I were a Cathedral fan, I'd be bored out of my mind if they were anywhere other than 6A. 

[Footballking16]

9 minutes ago, BTF said:

I guess if they don't win tournament games in 6A they'll bump back down. The problem is, they continue to win at that level. I've said it in the past and I'll say it again. It's sweeter to win once every one or two decades knowing you did it against the best than winning multiples at the lower level. Of course I'd think differently if I were an administrator at a school since deep tournament runs drive the the financial health of the athletic department. Personally, if I were a Cathedral fan, I'd be bored out of my mind if they were anywhere other than 6A. 

I will assure you winning never gets old regardless if it's in your enrollment based classification, the classification above, or even two above. High school kids don't think like that. They'll play wherever you tell them to play.

[tango]

17 minutes ago, BTF said:

Of course I'd think differently if I were an administrator at a school since deep tournament runs drive the the financial health of the athletic department. 

Actually, deep tournament runs generate very little financial return. The IHSAA gets more than the lion's share of the revenue at the Regional, Semi-State and State levels.

[BDGiant93]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

So tell me how schools like East Noble and Cathedral are on a level playing field? Kendallville city proper has 10,222 residents (2022) and a small portion of the surrounding area. Damn, Cathedral can pull from anywhere. And honestly, if I lived in Indy and my son had potential to go to the next level, he's not going to ANY of the public schools. He's going to Cathedral, Roncalli, or Chatard. First choice would be Cathedral. 

Roncalli and Chatard are a little different than Cathedral in that they primarily draw from an individual parish where as Cathedral (and Brebeuf) draw from everywhere.

[BTF]

9 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

Roncalli and Chatard are a little different than Cathedral in that they primarily draw from an individual parish where as Cathedral (and Brebeuf) draw from everywhere.

That's how Dwenger is, primarily from their parish community. Luers also draws from their own community, but also tends to draw more from the inner city by way of vouchers and also small towns like Roanoke and Huntington. It's that "everywhere" that gives Cathedral a major advantage. I have the upmost respect for that program. They've built a program that kids want to be a part of. 

25 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I will assure you winning never gets old regardless if it's in your enrollment based classification, the classification above, or even two above. High school kids don't think like that. They'll play wherever you tell them to play.

Agree 100% from a teenagers point of view. I think Cathedral is a great program, I just like to see great programs pile up against one another as a fan. 

[BDGiant93]

45 minutes ago, BTF said:

That's how Dwenger is, primarily from their parish community. Luers also draws from their own community, but also tends to draw more from the inner city by way of vouchers and also small towns like Roanoke and Huntington. It's that "everywhere" that gives Cathedral a major advantage. I have the upmost respect for that program. They've built a program that kids want to be a part of. 

Ritter, Scecina and Guerin are also parish-based, I think. 

[Footballking16]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

It's that "everywhere" that gives Cathedral a major advantage. I have the upmost respect for that program. They've built a program that kids want to be a part of. 

The "everywhere" isn't the advantage you think it is, especially in central Indiana with open enrollment. If anything it hurts a school like Cathedral. 

[Frozen Tundra]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

I will assure you winning never gets old regardless if it's in your enrollment based classification, the classification above, or even two above. High school kids don't think like that. They'll play wherever you tell them to play.

Yeah winning is only “boring” to people who aren’t fans of the team doing all the winning. From 2004-2020, I for sure wasn’t bored of all the winning Columbus East was doing. Blowing out conference opponents by multiple touchdowns every week for years wasn’t boring either. I’d love to have that again. Once all that “boring” winning stops, you definitely miss it.

[Komets2727]

I find it interesting that plenty of coaches want to talk about public vs. private schools. Honestly, I like the idea several brought up about private schools playing at least one level above their class.

Also, I think the 2 year window is too small for reclassification. 3-4 years would be better