USA Today Network media poll Week 2

[scarab527]

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Transitive property isn’t really a predictor in football.

And yet you just used it. 

[Footballking16]

5 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

And yet you just used it. 

lol how? Citing strength of schedule?

Edited August 28, 2024 by Footballking16

[scarab527]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

lol how?

By implying HSE would give a better game than Brownsburg because they beat them one year lmao. 

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

By implying HSE would give a better game than Brownsburg because they beat them one year lmao. 

Brownsburg was one of the 12 teams HSE beat that year (a team you said would have a better chance of competing in a state title despite playing in the same half of the bracket as Center Grove and Ben Davis). HSE beating 12 Indy-area 6A schools is far more impressive than Carroll beating 1 Indy-area 6A school regardless if that 6A school was HSE. Hence why I think HSE would have given Center Grove a better game than Carroll. 
 

 

[scarab527]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Brownsburg was one of the 12 teams HSE beat that year (a team you said would have a better chance of competing in a state title despite playing in the same half of the bracket as Center Grove and Ben Davis). HSE beating 12 Indy-area 6A schools is far more impressive than Carroll beating 1 Indy-area 6A school regardless if that 6A school was HSE. Hence why I think HSE would have given Center Grove a better game than Carroll. 
 

 

You said in general you’d take an HCC team over a non-Indy team, and I said yeah if the team is Brownsburg. Now you’re changing your original point to say specifically the 2022 season. Be consistent man. 
 

Also HSE would’ve gotten dogwalked by CG that year. 

[Footballking16]

25 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

You said in general you’d take an HCC team over a non-Indy team, and I said yeah if the team is Brownsburg. Now you’re changing your original point to say specifically the 2022 season. Be consistent man. 
 

Also HSE would’ve gotten dogwalked by CG that year. 

Again, based on what? That Center Grove team was the “weakest” of its three consecutive state title teams. They were a small underdog in semi-state to a Cathedral team who beat them a few weeks earlier.

Facts are:

-Penn is the last non-Indy school to win a large class title. It happened 25 years ago

-Since that Penn title, 4 teams from the North bracket have won state and they’ve all been Indy area teams (Carmel x3 and Fishers)

-Non-Indy area teams in the state finals (North Bracket) have lost by these margins: Valpo 19, Snider 24, Penn 50, Snider 12, Penn 54, Snider 25, Penn 12, Penn 49, Carroll 26, Crown Point 28 for an avg 30ppg 

-Conversely, Indy area teams in the state finals (North bracket) have lost by these margins: HSE 35, Carmel 21, Carmel 3, Carmel 6 (OT), Carmel 1, Carmel 18, Carmel 20, Westfield 24, Westfield 6 for an avg 14ppg 

Facts are (at least in the last 25 seasons) if you aren’t an Indy area school, you don’t have a prayer of winning a state title. Not only that, you aren’t going to be competitive outside once in a blue moon. Why do you think that is?

Edited August 28, 2024 by Footballking16

[scarab527]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Again, based on what? That Center Grove team was the “weakest” of its three consecutive state title teams. They were a small underdog in semi-state to a Cathedral team who beat them a few weeks earlier.

Facts are:

-Penn is the last non-Indy school to win a large class title. It happened 25 years ago

-Since that Penn title, 4 teams from the North bracket have won state and they’ve all been Indy area teams (Carmel x3 and Fishers)

-Non-Indy area teams in the state finals (North Bracket) have lost by these margins: Valpo 19, Snider 24, Penn 50, Snider 12, Penn 54, Snider 25, Penn 12, Penn 49, Carroll 26, Crown Point 28 for an avg 30ppg 

-Conversely, Indy area teams in the state finals (North bracket) have lost by these margins: HSE 35, Carmel 21, Carmel 3, Carmel 6 (OT), Carmel 1, Carmel 18, Carmel 20, Westfield 24, Westfield 6 for an avg 14ppg 

Facts are (at least in the last 25 seasons) if you aren’t an Indy area school, you don’t have a prayer of winning a state title. Not only that, you aren’t going to be competitive outside once in a blue moon. Why do you think that is?

So if you remove Carmel, the HCC schools have lost those games by an average of 21+ points per game. 
 

Thanks for proving my point that they wouldn’t have been that much more competitive. 

[Footballking16]

Just now, scarab527 said:

So if you remove Carmel, the HCC schools have lost those games by an average of 21+ points per game. 
 

Thanks for proving my point that they wouldn’t have been that much more competitive. 

Except an HCC team has previously won a state title…

[scarab527]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Except an HCC team has previously won a state title…

Yes, 1 in 4 tries across 25 years, against a team that’s not a part of the Big 4 teams we’ve been talking about. Also happened 15 years ago, when there were 5 classes. That last Fishers title is closer to the last Penn title than it is to the present day. 

[Footballking16]

17 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Yes, 1 in 4 tries across 25 years, against a team that’s not a part of the Big 4 teams we’ve been talking about. Also happened 15 years ago, when there were 5 classes. That last Fishers title is closer to the last Penn title than it is to the present day. 

You’re also forgetting that Zionsville and Westfield used to be 4A and 5A schools up until recently and before they became permanent 6A schools, the remaining large class HCC schools were gerrymandered into a sectional with Carmel in the years Carmel didn’t go south.

Now that the HCC has representation in two of the four northern sectionals, it’s just a matter of time. Westfield was 10 yards away from beating an all-time great Center Grove team just a few seasons back. A team from sectional 1 or 2 hasn’t been competitive in a state finals game in nearly a decade.

Edited August 28, 2024 by Footballking16

[scarab527]

7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Now that the HCC has representation in two of the four northern sectionals, it’s just a matter of time. Westfield was 10 yards away from beating an all-time great Center Grove team just a few seasons back. A team from sectional 1 or 2 hasn’t been competitive in a state finals game in nearly a decade.

Another way to put that is: the HCC and the true north have been competitive in the same amount of state title games (whatever that’s even worth) since the inception of 6A. 
 

And the true north has beaten the HCC the past two years. 

[Footballking16]

9 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Another way to put that is: the HCC and the true north have been competitive in the same amount of state title games (whatever that’s even worth) since the inception of 6A. 

Lol the true north teams have been able to walk to semi-state since the inception of 6A. All the HCC schools were in the same sectional up until a few years ago…with Carmel. I need to see a team from sectional 1 or 2 be competitive with a team in the south half of the bracket before I would ever pick them to win a championship.

[scarab527]

10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Lol the true north teams have been able to walk to semi-state since the inception of 6A. All the HCC schools were in the same sectional up until a few years ago…with Carmel. I need to see a team from sectional 1 or 2 be competitive with a team in the south half of the bracket before I would ever pick them to win a championship.

Keep moving those goalposts. 
 

My argument isn’t about the true north teams winning, it’s about the fact that the HCC haven’t proven to be much more of a challenge themselves. That 2021 Westfield team is one of the best HCC teams in history, and caught CG playing their worst game in that 2 year run, and still couldn’t get the job done. You sub in the HCC teams in the title game the last two years, and maybe it’s a 3 TD margin of victory instead of a 4 touchdown margin of victory. Big accomplishment. 

[psaboy]

6 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Again, based on what? That Center Grove team was the “weakest” of its three consecutive state title teams. They were a small underdog in semi-state to a Cathedral team who beat them a few weeks earlier.

Facts are:

-Penn is the last non-Indy school to win a large class title. It happened 25 years ago

-Since that Penn title, 4 teams from the North bracket have won state and they’ve all been Indy area teams (Carmel x3 and Fishers)

-Non-Indy area teams in the state finals (North Bracket) have lost by these margins: Valpo 19, Snider 24, Penn 50, Snider 12, Penn 54, Snider 25, Penn 12, Penn 49, Carroll 26, Crown Point 28 for an avg 30ppg 

-Conversely, Indy area teams in the state finals (North bracket) have lost by these margins: HSE 35, Carmel 21, Carmel 3, Carmel 6 (OT), Carmel 1, Carmel 18, Carmel 20, Westfield 24, Westfield 6 for an avg 14ppg 

Facts are (at least in the last 25 seasons) if you aren’t an Indy area school, you don’t have a prayer of winning a state title. Not only that, you aren’t going to be competitive outside once in a blue moon. Why do you think that is?

I only have two possible explanations, track speed and free lunches??

[temptation]

8 hours ago, scarab527 said:

Yeah, if the HCC team is Brownsburg. 
 

Sticking by my original statement that HSE or Westfield would not have given that much better games in 2022 or 2023. 

Nah.  Only if the game is being played in August or September.

34 minutes ago, psaboy said:

I only have two possible explanations, track speed and free lunches??

Yawn.  

[BTF]

7 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

 

-Non-Indy area teams in the state finals (North Bracket) have lost by these margins: Valpo 19, Snider 24, Penn 50, Snider 12, Penn 54, Snider 25, Penn 12, Penn 49, Carroll 26, Crown Point 28 for an avg 30ppg 

-Conversely, Indy area teams in the state finals (North bracket) have lost by these margins: HSE 35, Carmel 21, Carmel 3, Carmel 6 (OT), Carmel 1, Carmel 18, Carmel 20, Westfield 24, Westfield 6 for an avg 14ppg 

Facts are (at least in the last 25 seasons) if you aren’t an Indy area school, you don’t have a prayer of winning a state title. 

Is it fair to go back 25 seasons? The three Snider losses were between 2002 & 2012. Were HCC teams even in the same stratosphere as Snider during that time? Damn, what would have Lawrence Central, Warren Central, and Ben Davis done to an HCC team during that time? We're not talking 25 points here, I'm thinking 63. 

[FastpacedO]

10 hours ago, BTF said:

So a win over Avon isn't a good win? Let's not pretend that Avon is some kind of chump. 

10 hours ago, BTF said:

And lost to some pretty good teams by less than a touchdown.

No offense, but Avon has been terrible for 2-3 years now. They lost to 3-8 Pike in Sectionals round 1 (who got pummeled by Ben Davis 53-0 the next week). I mean I guess they scored a few points here and there, but they have been pounded into submission by the top HCC teams. They were in the bottom of the barrel of the HCC. I wouldn't exactly boast them as a good win, Avon has been on the struggle bus for a little bit now.

 

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

No offense, but Avon has been terrible for 2-3 years now. They lost to 3-8 Pike in Sectionals round 1 (who got pummeled by Ben Davis 53-0 the next week). I mean I guess they scored a few points here and there, but they have been pounded into submission by the top HCC teams. They were in the bottom of the barrel of the HCC. I wouldn't exactly boast them as a good win, Avon has been on the struggle bus for a little bit now.

 

It was brought to my attention in 2019 that the HCC's worst team is on the same level as the SAC's top team. So the narrative over the last several years has been that the HCC's bottom teams are still very good. 

[BTF]

9 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

                            No offense, but Avon has been terrible for 2-3 years now. They lost to 3-8 Pike in Sectionals round 1 

 

Avon also beat Noblesville by a larger margin than Brownsburg did. Can we really say that Avon is "terrible?"

[FastpacedO]

28 minutes ago, BTF said:

Avon also beat Noblesville by a larger margin than Brownsburg did. Can we really say that Avon is "terrible?"

Yes, Absolutely we can say that Avon is terrible. Noblesville and their run heavy T-Formation offense by Coach Sharpe tends to hold the ball and consume a lot of clock. It is a unique offense that presents it's own challenge. Regardless Brownsburg has curb stomped their rival Avon the last couple of years 53-30 and 60-21. Noblesville losing to Brownsburg by 5 and Avon by 7 doesn't change how bad Avon has been especially with Noblesville and Coach Sharpe's T-Formation. It will not surprise me to see Avon lose their next 3 games by larger margins than to Laff Jeff (Ben Davis, HSE, and Brownsburg).

[FastpacedO]

55 minutes ago, BTF said:

It was brought to my attention in 2019 that the HCC's worst team is on the same level as the SAC's top team. So the narrative over the last several years has been that the HCC's bottom teams are still very good. 

2-8 and 2-9 speaks for itself (Avon's record the last 2 seasons). In 2019 they were 9-1 with their lone loss to Brownsburg in Sectionals 27-24. Astronomical difference in Avon 2019 and Avon 2022 and 2023.

[Boilernation]

11 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Those guys all need to form their own conference. I get it would be a logistical nightmare, but for football’s sake it needs to happen. Makes too much sense from a competitive standpoint.

-Snider

-Carroll 

-Homestead

-Elkhart

-Penn

-Lake Central

-Crown Point

-Valpo

Elkhart feels llike a bigger version of Hammond Morton to me: They'll look good physically and roll out a few D1 recruits, but they're not beating anyone of significance. I would swap them with Merrillville. All jokes aside on the Pirates and how they fit into my first sentence, but they've at least proven at both the 5A and 6A level they can win true North Sectionals and Regionals.

Yes, ignoring the logistical nightmare, that would be an ideal setup. I have a feeling we'll eventually get close to it when the NIC finally folds and the DAC expands east to take Elkhart and Penn. 

[Footballking16]

7 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

Elkhart feels llike a bigger version of Hammond Morton to me: They'll look good physically and roll out a few D1 recruits, but they're not beating anyone of significance. I would swap them with Merrillville. All jokes aside on the Pirates and how they fit into my first sentence, but they've at least proven at both the 5A and 6A level they can win true North Sectionals and Regionals.

Yes, ignoring the logistical nightmare, that would be an ideal setup. I have a feeling we'll eventually get close to it when the NIC finally folds and the DAC expands east to take Elkhart and Penn. 

Or possibly add Warsaw and Merrillville and go to East/West divisions to alleviate travel. I don't know, just spitballing, but the 6A teams in Sect 1 and 2 biggest problem year in and year out is strength of schedule. Too many of those teams are buoyed playing in conferences with 3A/4A schools or downright bad 5A/6A schools. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

We could go to neutral site games for Semi-State.

Notre Dame will host if the game is between teams from the Region v Fort Wayne or Fort Wayne v Carmel/Westfield.

Due to the central location of the St. Joe and Elkhart County schools, Purdue or Ball State may have to be host to those games. 

Butler or U of Indy can host all indy area school semi-state games.

Purdue can host games from the Region to Northwest Indy to the state line 

IU can handle the southern portion of the state. 

Just spit balling here. This would force both schools to travel giving no one this advantage of not having to get on a bus and drive....

But, then again do we decentralize the state title games? 

I say leave it alone, and let the cards fall where they may. Sometimes you will get blowouts and sometimes you will get amazing football games. 

 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Or possibly add Warsaw and Merrillville and go to East/West divisions to alleviate travel. I don't know, just spitballing, but the 6A teams in Sect 1 and 2 biggest problem year in and year out is strength of schedule. Too many of those teams are buoyed playing in conferences with 3A/4A schools or downright bad 5A/6A schools. 

I think either Elkhart and Penn need to go to the DAC or if you can convince Snider, Homestead and Carroll from the Summit and Warsaw from the NLC that would be a strong conference. 

If they go DAC they need at least 2-4 teams to also join. They could then split that conference either by size of school or competitive balance the divisions and have 5/6 conference games and a better non-conference schedule.