5A State Championship: #4 Decatur Central (10-2) vs. #10 Warsaw (10-3)

[FastpacedO]

38 minutes ago, BTF said:

It really just just depends on the which team you're rooting for. For 90% of us, when your team turns the ball over, it's because you did a lousy job of protecting it. If you're team is on the receiving end of the turnovers, it's because the defense forced them. Human nature at work. Ten percent of us are in that category that says, look, the better team put more points on the board, plain and simple. No matter how you look at it, Decatur Central is your state champ. The better team won. All I'm saying, is that predicting Warsaw to win wasn't "wishfull thinking." I mean damn, the Tigers rushed for 337 yards on 7.3 yards per carry. It's not like they were "outmatched."

There's too much petty talk on this board about how the North stinks. For those of you who use Sagarin to support your opinions, they have 3 of the top 4 teams in 5A coming from the North. And 4 of the top 6. 

So what about for those of us that have no rooting interest in the game and who wins (Decatur Central or Warsaw). For me personally I have never said and never will "the North stinks". I don't use sagarin to support any opinion because I rarely look at sagarin (unless I want to see how far off they are compared to Freeman ratings).

[temptation]

19 minutes ago, BTF said:

I love it. You absolutely hate it when I'm right. Give me some substance that proves I'm wrong. Not "keep hanging on, love your dedication." 

I don't recall saying the words "at least." Do you work for CNN? I said, "for those of you who use Sagarin to support your opinions." 

"Crown Point is going to win 6A," was a bit of hyperbole. One of my notorious, bold, "wishful thinking," predictions. I'm here to tell you right now that I was wrong. I still think they are the 5th best team in the state, so sit and spin on that if you want. 

Love ya Temp, keep throwing material my way. Can't wait for the day you @Rodney and I have a beer together. 

 

Ah, the "I was just joking when I said Crown Point is going to win 6A" after the fact.  You are right from time to time but man, when you miss, you sure DO miss badly.  2-3 solid predictions can be spoiled by one terrible one.

I did Crown Point a service by keeping them in the top ten as that Westfield game proved to me they are closer to being on par with Franklin Central than they are Westfield.  Kyle has seen more of these teams in person so I can't really argue much with his rankings and even HE had Crown Point lower than me.

Kinda boring to continually hear the one-sided "this team from the north played its worst game of the season at the worst time" narrative and "I promise they are better than they showed at Lucas Oil" bits.  

Those are also not direct quotes but it seems that is how things are trending in a roundabout way.  It is also a bit short sighted (like some posters like to do) to assume that turnovers and bad plays are only a result of the losing team screwing up as opposed to awarding credit to the team that caused them.

Based on what I saw over the last month, I think Crown Point and Decatur Central would be an all out war decided by one possession.

Your turn to sit and spin.

[BTF]

20 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

So what about for those of us that have no rooting interest in the game and who wins (Decatur Central or Warsaw). For me personally I have never said and never will "the North stinks". I don't use sagarin to support any opinion because I rarely look at sagarin (unless I want to see how far off they are compared to Freeman ratings).

You're a pretty reasonable guy. It's been implied by other posters, clowns if you will. I do sometimes hate your posts though. You always bring facts into the equation to debate me.........makes my brain work a bit harder to come up with a rebuttle. I say that all in good fun.

I also owe you an apology. I made some accusations about you a couple of months ago that I don't believe to be as valid as I once thought. I think I was confusing you with another poster. 

Are you finally going to tell us who your preference is? I still think it's Indy. We all know I'm NE Indiana, @temptation is all in on Indy, and @Rodney, well he's all over the map. He's gone from Dwenger, to Merrillville, to South Gibson. 

[BTF]

34 minutes ago, temptation said:

Ah, the "I was just joking when I said Crown Point is going to win 6A" after the fact.  You are right from time to time but man, when you miss, you sure DO miss badly.  2-3 solid predictions can be spoiled by one terrible one.

I did Crown Point a service by keeping them in the top ten as that Westfield game proved to me they are closer to being on par with Franklin Central than they are Westfield.  Kyle has seen more of these teams in person so I can't really argue much with his rankings and even HE had Crown Point lower than me.

Kinda boring to continually hear the one-sided "this team from the north played its worst game of the season at the worst time" narrative and "I promise they are better than they showed at Lucas Oil" bits.  

Those are also not direct quotes but it seems that is how things are trending in a roundabout way.  It is also a bit short sighted (like some posters like to do) to assume that turnovers and bad plays are only a result of the losing team screwing up as opposed to awarding credit to the team that caused them.

Based on what I saw over the last month, I think Crown Point and Decatur Central would be an all out war decided by one possession.

Your turn to sit and spin.

Good Lord. Okay, here goes. Then I gotta work. 

Who the hell is Kyle? 

You know I like to make bold predictions Temp. Bold = "this is risky, I hope I'm right." My biggest fear for Crown Point was them traveling down to Westfield's house knowing the Rocks were probably ready to play their best game of the season in hopes to avenge last year's loss. And that's what happened. It was a one off as @Boilernation already pointed out. I think Westfield wins that game 8 times out of 10, but the blowout isn't indicative of how close those two teams are. But to say Franklin Central is on par with Crown Point? Gimmie a break. 

I do believe you're referring to the DC/Warsaw game. I like to give credit to good defenses for "forcing" turnovers. Were they forced or were they careless plays by Warsaw? I don't know, I'll have to go back and rewatch. I already gave DC credit for being the best team in 5A, and I stand by that. 

I've got Crown Point beating Decatur Central by 17-21. And that's not hyperbole. I don't see Decatur Central being any better than Carroll. Giving up 327 yards at 7.3 yards a pop against Warsaw is pretty suspect. But yeah, they're the best team in 5A. I know you want them to be good Temp, you've hyped them up since last season. And they are good, they were good last year. But they're not Crown Point good, sorry. 

Edited December 3, 2024 by BTF

[FastpacedO]

17 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

Obviously I'm biased in this conversation - but from my perspective both things can be true.

1. Decatur Central, outside of the INT in the endzone, played a near perfect game. They made next to zero mistakes, and when a team plays like that against Warsaw (or any other team playing a similiar style of offense), that will bode well for their chances. That's also the MAJOR difference between Decatur Central and Concord, Lafayette Jeff, and Merrillville. All three of those teams scored on big plays on offense, much like Decatur Central. However, all three also made crucial mistakes via turnover or penalty at inopportune times, and the Tigers took advantage of those mistake. Decatur Central did not.

2. Take away just two of the Warsaw fumbles, and it is a different ball game. Yes, looking at the scoreboard, Decatur Central was basically always in control of the game, but Warsaw was still in it midway through the 4th Quarter. Two of the Warsaw fumbles came on plays IMMEDIATELY after long runs busted off by the Tigers. Obviously, if wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas, but it's not out of the realm of possibility Warsaw doesn't fumble those balls and extend their drives and end them with points... they're right there.

100% - the better team on Saturday night won the game. ALL CREDIT to the Decatur Central coaching staff and team. They executed a great game plan and played extremely clean. The Tigers on the other hand, did not. But having watched every Warsaw game in the tournament, the Hawks did not necessarily have a bunch better Jimmys and Joes than Concord, Lafayette Jeff, Merrillville. However, they played a million times better than each of those teams, and thus why they walked away with blue ribbons. Congratulations Hawks!

I don't disagree with what you have stated and I completely understand you saying you are obviously biased. I have 100% enjoyed your posts about your Tigers as it has given me more knowledge of Warsaw prior to me watching game film or seeing them in the State Finals.

I had absolutely no rooting interest in this game. Trust me I totally get the woulda coulda shoulda and the ifs or buts. From an outsiders perspective both teams could use that. A biased DC Hawks fans could also use that to their advantage with missed FG's late in the 3rd qtr and 4th qtr etc. So from an outsider it kind of becomes a wash.

I don't feel I have ever stated 1 team had better Jimmy and Joe's to win the game. I felt Decatur Central had to take advantage of their possessions to not let Warsaw get a lead and play keep away and they accomplished that. If Warsaw were to build any lead I felt DC would be in trouble because Warsaw would do what they do best and bleed the clock with a lead.

[temptation]

44 minutes ago, BTF said:

Good Lord. Okay, here goes. Then I gotta work. 

Who the hell is Kyle? 

You know I like to make bold predictions Temp. Bold = "this is risky, I hope I'm right." My biggest fear for Crown Point was them traveling down to Westfield's house knowing the Rocks were probably ready to play their best game of the season in hopes to avenge last year's loss. And that's what happened. It was a one off as @Boilernation already pointed out. I think Westfield wins that game 8 times out of 10, but the blowout isn't indicative of how close those two teams are. But to say Franklin Central is on par with Crown Point? Gimmie a break. 

I do believe you're referring to the DC/Warsaw game. I like to give credit to good defenses for "forcing" turnovers. Were they forced or were they careless plays by Warsaw? I don't know, I'll have to go back and rewatch. I already gave DC credit for being the best team in 5A, and I stand by that. 

I've got Crown Point beating Decatur Central by 17-21. And that's not hyperbole. I don't see Decatur Central being any better than Carroll. Giving up 327 yards at 7.3 yards a pop against Warsaw is pretty suspect. But yeah, they're the best team in 5A. I know you want them to be good Temp, you've hyped them up since last season. And they are good, they were good last year. But they're not Crown Point good, sorry. 

Westfield beats Crown Point 10 times out of 10.  Zero doubt in my mind.  The level of competition Westfield sees as opposed to Crown Point is massive.  Crown Point and Franklin Central is a 10-14 point game...hell you have the Flashes 17th.  

I don't "want" Decatur Central to be good.  Doesn't matter to me.  They've now made 3 state finals appearances in the last 7 years.  Their success speaks for itself as their two losses were to New Pal's best team in school history and a Snider team highly regarded as a top 3-5 team regardless of class last year.

Indy always gets the benefit of the doubt from me and it has nothing to do with where I live.  The results speak for themselves.

Edited December 3, 2024 by temptation

[Lysander]

Nothing says more about the irrelevancy of 5A than the fact the fact that the 5th-7th team in 4A (Martinsville) beat the 5A State Champion team.

Not to be overtly political, and I know this might well piss off several friends of mine here, but the simple existence of 5A is literally the DEI of Indiana HS Football.   

Its an embarrassing class.  

Sorry....an "also ran" award for teams that couldn't win 4A or 6A (Snider excepted).

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

You're a pretty reasonable guy. It's been implied by other posters, clowns if you will. I do sometimes hate your posts though. You always bring facts into the equation to debate me.........makes my brain work a bit harder to come up with a rebuttle. I say that all in good fun.

I also owe you an apology. I made some accusations about you a couple of months ago that I don't believe to be as valid as I once thought. I think I was confusing you with another poster. 

Are you finally going to tell us who your preference is? I still think it's Indy. We all know I'm NE Indiana, @temptation is all in on Indy, and @Rodney, well he's all over the map. He's gone from Dwenger, to Merrillville, to South Gibson. 

It is always good to be challenged and have to think a little harder. I have been plenty of times on here in the end for many it expands our knowledge.

Honestly no apology is needed, required, or expected. I take no offense and I think you provide excellent posts to the forum. Even if you sometimes take risks and make predictions you bring good content to the GID.

I don't know that I can really provide a preference anymore. I find myself taking an interest in games sometimes because of a Coach I may have met and they have impacted something in the way I think. Even in the State Finals games I really don't like to see any of the kids lose with the hard work they have put in, so I usually will take an interest to the Coach I may have met.

51 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Nothing says more about the irrelevancy of 5A than the fact the fact that the 5th-7th team in 4A (Martinsville) beat the 5A State Champion team.

Not to be overtly political, and I know this might well piss off several friends of mine here, but the simple existence of 5A is literally the DEI of Indiana HS Football.   

Its an embarrassing class.  

Sorry....an "also ran" award for teams that couldn't win 4A or 6A (Snider excepted).

There is a fix for that if the IHSAA would make the move or the IFCA would make a suggestion to the IHSAA. Make 6A and 1A 32 teams and 2A-5A 62 teams.

[BTF]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Westfield beats Crown Point 10 times out of 10.  Zero doubt in my mind.  The level of competition Westfield sees as opposed to Crown Point is massive.  Crown Point and Franklin Central is a 10-14 point game...hell you have the Flashes 17th.  

I don't "want" Decatur Central to be good.  Doesn't matter to me.  They've now made 3 state finals appearances in the last 7 years.  Their success speaks for itself as their two losses were to New Pal's best team in school history and a Snider team highly regarded as a top 3-5 team regardless of class last year.

Indy always gets the benefit of the doubt from me and it has nothing to do with where I live.  The results speak for themselves.

You can't even give Crown Point 1 out of 10? Damn, South Side beat Luers for crying out loud. Ben Davis was up 35-0 over Brownsburg. Shit happens. 

I would agree that Crown Point over the Flashes by 10-14 points, not sure I stated otherwise. What exactly is "on par?" But yeah, I'd be on board with that spread, maybe even 17. We'll never know. 

[Lysander]

30 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

There is a fix for that if the IHSAA would make the move or the IFCA would make a suggestion to the IHSAA. Make 6A and 1A 32 teams and 2A-5A 62 teams.

As I have been an advocate from the BEGINNING.

On DAY ONE of this ridiculous class I stated that NONE of these 5A teams excepting Snider had an ongoing tradition of football excellence (some may have 40 or so years ago) and it was an accommodation to big schools and perhaps big $.

Sadly, the 1A schools had neither the influence and, perhaps, the $.

Regardless, the IHSAA totally screwed up on this and my guess is that it had to do with big school central Indiana influence v. rural schools.

[BTF]

29 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I don't know that I can really provide a preference anymore. I find myself taking an interest in games sometimes because of a Coach I may have met and they have impacted something in the way I think. Even in the State Finals games I really don't like to see any of the kids lose with the hard work they have put in, so I usually will take an interest to the Coach I may have met.

I agree. It's about who's leading the program more than anything. I have admiration for most high school coaches, they put in a lot of work for their compensation. I was impressed with Kyle Enright in how he conducted himself at last year's state finals. I was rooting for them all the way up until state, where of course I'm loyal to the north (unless of course there's somthing about the program worth hating.). Hell, I wasn't even bothered by Heritage Hills beating Luers. It's nice to see a public school get their second championship versus a private getting their thirteenth. 

I also agree that it's hard to watch kids get their hearts broken in defeat. Kids from the north are no different than kids from the south. Every kid has dreams, every kid has ambitions, every program has a story. Gotta love high school football. I certainly wouldn't refer to a program or an entire class as "embarassing." Kids work too hard for that. 

[FastpacedO]

1 minute ago, Lysander said:

As I have been an advocate from the BEGINNING.

On DAY ONE of this ridiculous class I stated that NONE of these 5A teams excepting Snider had an ongoing tradition of football excellence (some may have 40 or so years ago) and it was an accommodation to big schools and perhaps big $.

Sadly, the 1A schools had neither the influence and, perhaps, the $.

Regardless, the IHSAA totally screwed up on this and my guess is that it had to do with big school central Indiana influence v. rural schools.

Stop telling me you are a genius all the time and let me have my day in the sun! Only kidding of course!

[temptation]

18 minutes ago, BTF said:

You can't even give Crown Point 1 out of 10? Damn, South Side beat Luers for crying out loud. Ben Davis was up 35-0 over Brownsburg. Shit happens. 

I would agree that Crown Point over the Flashes by 10-14 points, not sure I stated otherwise. What exactly is "on par?" But yeah, I'd be on board with that spread, maybe even 17. We'll never know. 

Eh, I will give em one.  Actually they did win 1 (in 2023).

So, Crown Point (#5 in your poll) is a running clock over New Pal (#11 in your poll) and Crown Point (#5 in your poll) by 10-17 over Franklin Central (#17 in your poll)?  Got it.

[BTF]

3 minutes ago, Lysander said:

As I have been an advocate from the BEGINNING.

On DAY ONE of this ridiculous class I stated that NONE of these 5A teams excepting Snider had an ongoing tradition of football excellence (some may have 40 or so years ago) and it was an accommodation to big schools and perhaps big $.

Sadly, the 1A schools had neither the influence and, perhaps, the $.

Regardless, the IHSAA totally screwed up on this and my guess is that it had to do with big school central Indiana influence v. rural schools.

I'm just floored that you can refer to programs like Merrillville, Valpo, Mishawaka, Warsaw, Concord, Plainfield, Bloomington South, Castle, and Whiteland as embarassing. But hey, that's your freedom of speach. 

[Lysander]

Just now, FastpacedO said:

Stop telling me you are a genius all the time and let me have my day in the sun! Only kidding of course!

I defer.  

I’m the farthest thing from a genius….you only need to ask my forever faithful better half.

(Which has always made me question just why she has hung onto me since HS….just what is wrong with this chick?).

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, temptation said:

Eh, I will give em one.  Actually they did win 1 (in 2023).

So, Crown Point (#5 in your poll) is a running clock over New Pal (#11 in your poll) and Crown Point (#5 in your poll) by 10-17 over Franklin Central (#17 in your poll)?  Got it.

No, after seeing New Pal play, I don't think Crown Point would running clock them. I'd bet on CP to win, just not sure by how much. 

Yeah, I think there's a two score gap between 1-9 and 11-20. Ben Davis is a yoyo. They could be Brownsburg one week and lose to Luers the next. 

[temptation]

4 minutes ago, BTF said:

No, after seeing New Pal play, I don't think Crown Point would running clock them. I'd bet on CP to win, just not sure by how much. 

Yeah, I think there's a two score gap between 1-9 and 11-20. Ben Davis is a yoyo. They could be Brownsburg one week and lose to Luers the next. 

Why did you need to see them play?  You had them losing to Chatard and they went on the road and won that one well prior to last weekend.  The win over Chatard did not validate them in your mind?  They had to roll East Noble by 4+ possessions?

Will you doubt them again next year?

Edited December 3, 2024 by temptation

[Lysander]

3 minutes ago, BTF said:

I'm just floored that you can refer to programs like Merrillville, Valpo, Mishawaka, Warsaw, Concord, Plainfield, Bloomington South, Castle, and Whiteland as embarassing. But hey, that's your freedom of speach. 

Yep…5A is an “accommodation”.  

“Short Bus” class….literally.

Witnessed a couple of those schools lose by 30-40 plus in August/September/October (one in particular near IU pissed and moaned on radio despite about 1,000 more kids after an ass-kicking….then “cancelled” during COVID).  Then there was Merrillville showing up at Chatard…..

Frankly, Snider should have dirt stomped 5A…..but didn’t….somehow.

I’m just floored about that.

[Komets2727]

Temp, love the debates with you, but always stirring the pot with attacks on North teams is a bit much. We all know your love for the South teams in all classes, we get it. Front runners are all the same, never state their favorite team and always attacks others favorite teams leaving themselves basically unattackable. 6A is ruled by Indy, I know it, you know it , everyone knows it. The other 5 classes are wide open. I will consider you a Warren Central fan until proven otherwise…

[BTF]

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Why did you need to see them play?  You had them losing to Chatard and they went on the road and won that one well prior to last weekend.  The win over Chatard did not validate them in your mind?  They had to roll East Noble by 4+ possessions?

Will you doubt them again next year?

I mean, Chatard is good, but they're no 6A team. I felt the whole way that they or Chatard were the more than likely favorites to win the whole thing. East Noble impressed me with their 38-0 win over Dwenger to the point of, "hmmm, maybe they are good enough to win this whole thing." 

I'll never doubt New Pal in 4A or 5A. Does it make you feel better for me to say "New Pal" is aguably the best program in the state for the nineteenth time? I'm not going to say it anymore moving forward. Will I doubt New Pal being one of the best ten teams in the state regardless of class? Yes, more than likely. Sorry. 

[BTF]

5 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Yep…5A is an “accommodation”.  

“Short Bus” class….literally.

Witnessed a couple of those schools lose by 30-40 plus in August/September/October (one in particular near IU pissed and moaned on radio despite about 1,000 more kids after an ass-kicking….then “cancelled” during COVID).  Then there was Merrillville showing up at Chatard…..

Frankly, Snider should have dirt stomped 5A…..but didn’t….somehow.

I’m just floored about that.

Sorry, but 3A's not much better than 5A pound for pound. But since that's the class your beloved Chatard has stockpiled their trophy case against, it's somehow great compared to 5A. Lol, you're just too much. 

7 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

I will consider you a Warren Central fan until proven otherwise…

Lol, he's hard to predict, but I'm a lean toward the Warriors as well. 

[Boilernation]

3 hours ago, BTF said:

Good Lord. Okay, here goes. Then I gotta work. 

Who the hell is Kyle? 

You know I like to make bold predictions Temp. Bold = "this is risky, I hope I'm right." My biggest fear for Crown Point was them traveling down to Westfield's house knowing the Rocks were probably ready to play their best game of the season in hopes to avenge last year's loss. And that's what happened. It was a one off as @Boilernation already pointed out. I think Westfield wins that game 8 times out of 10, but the blowout isn't indicative of how close those two teams are. But to say Franklin Central is on par with Crown Point? Gimmie a break. 

I do believe you're referring to the DC/Warsaw game. I like to give credit to good defenses for "forcing" turnovers. Were they forced or were they careless plays by Warsaw? I don't know, I'll have to go back and rewatch. I already gave DC credit for being the best team in 5A, and I stand by that. 

I've got Crown Point beating Decatur Central by 17-21. And that's not hyperbole. I don't see Decatur Central being any better than Carroll. Giving up 327 yards at 7.3 yards a pop against Warsaw is pretty suspect. But yeah, they're the best team in 5A. I know you want them to be good Temp, you've hyped them up since last season. And they are good, they were good last year. But they're not Crown Point good, sorry. 

Hey, stop dragging me into this never ending impossible to prove any side correct type of subjective argument, lol. I will say I was in the stands while Zionsville beat Franklin Central. I don't believe for a second the defense I saw that night could have stopped Crown Point's OL and Run game. Zionsville had 191 yards rushing that night with a smaller OL than Crown Point and a Junior RB (Manna) who is not as good as Ellison. I also saw nothing from FC's offense to make me think Crown Point's DL and LB'ers would have struggled with them. 

It is what it is. Westfield's lines dominated Crown Point in crappy weather and the MOV will forever be used as definitie proof that subjective opinions are correct.

[Coach Nowlin]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

 

There is a fix for that if the IHSAA would make the move or the IFCA would make a suggestion to the IHSAA. Make 6A and 1A 32 teams and 2A-5A 62 teams.

Valpo/Warsaw being top in 5a (bumped down bc of Cathedral and Snider) being the top of the class, followed by Whiteland, these schools are tick above 2000 students.   Then you take the top 4a 32 teams and that puts the stopping point at Marian H.S. with just over 1000 students. 

So gap of enrollment in the new 5a with 64 teams is over 1000 students, perhaps even 1200.  

Currently with 5a the gap is only like 5-600 student differences if you take out Success Factor 

 

 

[temptation]

31 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Temp, love the debates with you, but always stirring the pot with attacks on North teams is a bit much. We all know your love for the South teams in all classes, we get it. Front runners are all the same, never state their favorite team and always attacks others favorite teams leaving themselves basically unattackable. 6A is ruled by Indy, I know it, you know it , everyone knows it. The other 5 classes are wide open. I will consider you a Warren Central fan until proven otherwise…

What love do I have?  It's simply pointing to history.  Do I see 5A/6A south teams more often?  Sure.  But until northern 5A and 6A teams give me a reason to watch and are actually competitive at the state finals, I will continue to focus most of my attention and time to those teams.  I did catch a couple of Crown Point's games after they started hot but their lackluster performance in the semi-state will make me more hesitant to do so next year.

Not much below the 3A level interests me much.  I did watch the Evansville Memorial/Heritage Hills game a few weeks back but other than that, its kinda boring.

For the hundreth time, I have no allegiance to any team nor program.

[FastpacedO]

29 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Valpo/Warsaw being top in 5a (bumped down bc of Cathedral and Snider) being the top of the class, followed by Whiteland, these schools are tick above 2000 students.   Then you take the top 4a 32 teams and that puts the stopping point at Marian H.S. with just over 1000 students. 

So gap of enrollment in the new 5a with 64 teams is over 1000 students, perhaps even 1200.  

Currently with 5a the gap is only like 5-600 student differences if you take out Success Factor 

 

 

I get it there can be more of a number gap but it really isn't that bad. I think this will make all the classes a lot more competitive in my personal opinion.