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State Finals Format Changing


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The IHSAA voted unanimously in favor of getting rid of the 1/3/5 and 2/4/6 format at the state finals.  Now, matchups will be looked at after the semi state round and geography will be considered to possibly boost attendance.

They will look to make travel easier if multiple teams from certain areas of the state make it to Lucas Oil.

Thoughts?  I like it.

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Also the only state in the union who refused to change times for decades to keep the cow milking on the same schedule. Indiana is a central time zone state pretending to be an eastern one.

Let's just call it what it is and dont beat around the bush or try to avoid reality Indy schools have home field advantage in the state finals They get to sleep in their own beds while other

DST isn't the issue...the issue is the SW and NW corners of the state being on CST.  I think it is nuts that any of Indiana is on EST...just my opinion.  

My only request would be that any team that plays Semi State on a Saturday automatically plays Saturday at Lucas.

The state finals are already stacked against teams from the corners of the state. Why add another disadvantage? 

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I like it, too. It makes a lot of sense. One thing they’re going to do is shuffle the schedule to attempt to maximize attendance. For example if 2 Ft. Wayne teams make it to the finals in different classes, they will schedule those games back to back to draw as many Ft. Wayne fans as possible. 

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19 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

My only request would be that any team that plays Semi State on a Saturday automatically plays Saturday at Lucas.

The state finals are already stacked against teams from the corners of the state. Why add another disadvantage? 

How exactly are they “stacked against teams from the corners of the state” in your opinion?

Due to travel?

Not saying I disagree just want more specifics.

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17 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I like it, too. It makes a lot of sense. One thing they’re going to do is shuffle the schedule to attempt to maximize attendance. For example if 2 Ft. Wayne teams make it to the finals in different classes, they will schedule those games back to back to draw as many Ft. Wayne fans as possible. 

Wonder if they will go a step farther and even allow teams from the farthest away (Evansville for example) to avoid the noon time slot on either day.

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This all makes lots of sense in this new era where the tail wags the dog.  

Would the IHSAA go so far as to schedule a Region Triple Header if Andrean, Valpo and Merrillville all made it to their respective title games.

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3 hours ago, Temptation said:

How exactly are they “stacked against teams from the corners of the state” in your opinion?

Due to travel?

Not saying I disagree just want more specifics.

I agree.  We played in the SF in 93.  We came out of NWI (Lake Central).  Didnt think there was any disadvantage.

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3 hours ago, Temptation said:

How exactly are they “stacked against teams from the corners of the state” in your opinion?

Due to travel?

Not saying I disagree just want more specifics.

Don’t take this as a complaint- the inconveniences of the situation are well worth the chance to play for a state title. Every Hs football player would be willing to trade a lot for a blue ring.

Specifics? Mainly travel but here are some examples. 

Time change.  Had Andrean won SS last year, they would have played an 11 AM Central kickoff. Rensselaer/ Mater Dei back in 2014 featured two teams from the central time zone. Do you spend the night before in a hotel or leave really early to drive the 2-2:30 hours? 

Media day. Monday the coach and team captains travel to get pictures and meet with IHSAA brass. A minor inconvenience for Chatard, Carmel, and Center Grove. But this was most likely a 5+ Hr round trip in a car for Memorial, East Noble, and Heritage Hills. They probably don’t make it back for the start of practice as well.

Practice. If they want, those teams can choose to take another 5+ hr round trip - but this time in a bus for a practice at Lucas Oil. New Pal, WeBo can take their hour practice at LOS, head back to school and finish normal practice. An Evansville school has to give up pretty much a whole Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday (Thanksgiving) if they want to practice at Lucas.

Hotel issues- Black Friday and the tree lighting take place downtown Friday in Indy. If you don’t want an early drive (or like to tailgate!) parents, fans, coaches’ families, plus alumni who have informal reunions all are trying to coordinate where they are staying. I concede this is a self-imposed issue, but it still is a distraction that Indy area teams don’t deal with. 
 

I don’t think it changes the outcome - but just take a look at Heritage Hills schedule for regional and semi state, and then throw another two trips to Indianapolis prior to kickoff on Friday. 

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My idea would be that the ENTIRE 1A, 3A and 5A tournament be played on Friday...

..while the ENTIRE 2A, 4A and 6A tourneys be played on Saturday.

 

That would up gate receipts because fans could watch two games a week.

Media could cover more games and and boys who play could also see the playoffs.

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5 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Don’t take this as a complaint- the inconveniences of the situation are well worth the chance to play for a state title. Every Hs football player would be willing to trade a lot for a blue ring.

Specifics? Mainly travel but here are some examples. 

Time change.  Had Andrean won SS last year, they would have played an 11 AM Central kickoff. Rensselaer/ Mater Dei back in 2014 featured two teams from the central time zone. Do you spend the night before in a hotel or leave really early to drive the 2-2:30 hours? 

Media day. Monday the coach and team captains travel to get pictures and meet with IHSAA brass. A minor inconvenience for Chatard, Carmel, and Center Grove. But this was most likely a 5+ Hr round trip in a car for Memorial, East Noble, and Heritage Hills. They probably don’t make it back for the start of practice as well.

Practice. If they want, those teams can choose to take another 5+ hr round trip - but this time in a bus for a practice at Lucas Oil. New Pal, WeBo can take their hour practice at LOS, head back to school and finish normal practice. An Evansville school has to give up pretty much a whole Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday (Thanksgiving) if they want to practice at Lucas.

Hotel issues- Black Friday and the tree lighting take place downtown Friday in Indy. If you don’t want an early drive (or like to tailgate!) parents, fans, coaches’ families, plus alumni who have informal reunions all are trying to coordinate where they are staying. I concede this is a self-imposed issue, but it still is a distraction that Indy area teams don’t deal with. 
 

I don’t think it changes the outcome - but just take a look at Heritage Hills schedule for regional and semi state, and then throw another two trips to Indianapolis prior to kickoff on Friday. 

Valid points.

Anybody up for the challenge of running some data as it relates to travel and success at the state finals?

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2 hours ago, Temptation said:

Valid points.

Anybody up for the challenge of running some data as it relates to travel and success at the state finals?

I would think it would be very difficult to attempt to draw any valid conclusions from the data, since the only real endpoint is who won the game at the finals. And there’s always going to be the issue of who is the better team. Assuming the statistics that show a disproportionate percentage of wins by Indy area schools over the years, who is to say that the Indy teams aren’t just better?

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Let's just call it what it is and dont beat around the bush or try to avoid reality

Indy schools have home field advantage in the state finals

They get to sleep in their own beds while others are in cheap hotels

Relax in their own homes while others are driving in winter weather

Maximize practice time and rest while others are traveling

It's a huge advantage for the local schools

 

 

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I'm encouraged by the open mindedness of the new Leadership to consider change. It is needed in regards to current playoff system. I'd love them to expand the discussion to review  neutral sites for Regional and especially Semi Sate games. One step at a time I guess.

Also agree 100% with DT's last post, it is home field advantage for local Indy schools. Hard to deny this fact.

Having said that, I still think Indy/LOS is the ideal location to host and it's encouraging to see new leadership open to ideas/ways to mitigate and get more butts in seats.

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9 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Don’t take this as a complaint- the inconveniences of the situation are well worth the chance to play for a state title. Every Hs football player would be willing to trade a lot for a blue ring.

Specifics? Mainly travel but here are some examples. 

Time change.  Had Andrean won SS last year, they would have played an 11 AM Central kickoff. Rensselaer/ Mater Dei back in 2014 featured two teams from the central time zone. Do you spend the night before in a hotel or leave really early to drive the 2-2:30 hours? 

Media day. Monday the coach and team captains travel to get pictures and meet with IHSAA brass. A minor inconvenience for Chatard, Carmel, and Center Grove. But this was most likely a 5+ Hr round trip in a car for Memorial, East Noble, and Heritage Hills. They probably don’t make it back for the start of practice as well.

Practice. If they want, those teams can choose to take another 5+ hr round trip - but this time in a bus for a practice at Lucas Oil. New Pal, WeBo can take their hour practice at LOS, head back to school and finish normal practice. An Evansville school has to give up pretty much a whole Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday (Thanksgiving) if they want to practice at Lucas.

Hotel issues- Black Friday and the tree lighting take place downtown Friday in Indy. If you don’t want an early drive (or like to tailgate!) parents, fans, coaches’ families, plus alumni who have informal reunions all are trying to coordinate where they are staying. I concede this is a self-imposed issue, but it still is a distraction that Indy area teams don’t deal with. 
 

I don’t think it changes the outcome - but just take a look at Heritage Hills schedule for regional and semi state, and then throw another two trips to Indianapolis prior to kickoff on Friday. 

I f we could get rid of DST would that get the whole state on the same time ? 

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

I would think it would be very difficult to attempt to draw any valid conclusions from the data, since the only real endpoint is who won the game at the finals. And there’s always going to be the issue of who is the better team. Assuming the statistics that show a disproportionate percentage of wins by Indy area schools over the years, who is to say that the Indy teams aren’t just better?

True unless we could access the Sagarin ratings of each team entering the game.  Still might be an interesting analysis.  Raw data won’t tell the whole story.

Its summer.  I’m bored.  Stay tuned.

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42 minutes ago, Temptation said:

True unless we could access the Sagarin ratings of each team entering the game.  Still might be an interesting analysis.  Raw data won’t tell the whole story.

Its summer.  I’m bored.  Stay tuned.

Sagarin seems to be the way to go. Although somewhat comical weeks 1-9, it does seem to have a pretty good grip on things entering the regional/semi-state level. 

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39 minutes ago, BTF said:

Sagarin seems to be the way to go. Although somewhat comical weeks 1-9, it does seem to have a pretty good grip on things entering the regional/semi-state level. 

Any idea where I can access past seasons?

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1 minute ago, Temptation said:

Any idea where I can access past seasons?

His email is on his website. Maybe just email him directly.

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8 hours ago, RegionFBFan said:

I'm encouraged by the open mindedness of the new Leadership to consider change. It is needed in regards to current playoff system. I'd love them to expand the discussion to review  neutral sites for Regional and especially Semi Sate games. One step at a time I guess.

Also agree 100% with DT's last post, it is home field advantage for local Indy schools. Hard to deny this fact.

Having said that, I still think Indy/LOS is the ideal location to host and it's encouraging to see new leadership open to ideas/ways to mitigate and get more butts in seats.

We will not be going back to an era of attendance growth at state finals.  The IHSAA would be wise to try to hold on to the crowd levels they currently are getting.  Streaming will only continue to grow and will keep more people at home to watch locally in lieu of taking long road trips.

Keeping Carmel in the south is an interesting conundrum from an attendance perspective.  The 2008 CG-Carmel title game topped off the bigest weekend of state finals attendance ever.  It was much lower in 2019 when these two schools met again in the finals.  Would Merrillville, Warsaw, Homestead, Carroll, Crown Point, Penn or any other 6A school outdraw Carmel in he championship matchup?

 

Hard to tell anymore

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29 minutes ago, DT said:

We will not be going back to an era of attendance growth at state finals.  The IHSAA would be wise to try to hold on to the crowd levels they currently are getting.  Streaming will only continue to grow and will keep more people at home to watch locally in lieu of taking long road trips.

Keeping Carmel in the south is an interesting conundrum from an attendance perspective.  The 2008 CG-Carmel title game topped off the bigest weekend of state finals attendance ever.  It was much lower in 2019 when these two schools met again in the finals.  Would Merrillville, Warsaw, Homestead, Carroll, Crown Point, Penn or any other 6A school outdraw Carmel in he championship matchup?

 

Hard to tell anymore

Would it be prudent instead for the IHSAA to take some measures to try and increase attendance at Regionals and Semistates? If there’s no opportunity for growth at the Finals, that would seem to be an alternative.

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45 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Would it be prudent instead for the IHSAA to take some measures to try and increase attendance at Regionals and Semistates? If there’s no opportunity for growth at the Finals, that would seem to be an alternative.

It’s possible. But what you might gain from a visitor with less travel might be offset with smaller home crowd. I have had family members shy away from a road game just for fear that the visitor side would not be large enough and they would have to stand. Making sure regionals and semi states have adequate seating might help. Tough to tell.
 

If we wanted to crunch numbers, are regional and SS attendance figures available anywhere? 

1 hour ago, DT said:

Keeping Carmel in the south is an interesting conundrum from an attendance perspective.  The 2008 CG-Carmel title game topped off the bigest weekend of state finals attendance ever.  It was much lower in 2019 when these two schools met again in the finals.  Would Merrillville, Warsaw, Homestead, Carroll, Crown Point, Penn or any other 6A school outdraw Carmel in he championship matchup?

Does the IHSAA rent Lucas Oil or get it for free? I would hate to see the finals moved away for a cost cutting measure. Soccer can play at a HS field, volleyball can play in Muncie, fine. But the football tournament should end at LOS.

And I think 2008 should be excluded from attendance discussions. First year in a brand new stadium (many Colts fans had never been inside prior to thanksgiving 2008) there was a novelty effect.

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1 minute ago, oldtimeqb said:

It’s possible. But what you might gain from a visitor with less travel might be offset with smaller home crowd. I have had family members shy away from a road game just for fear that the visitor side would not be large enough and they would have to stand. Making sure regionals and semi states have adequate seating might help. Tough to tell.

Neutral sites?

If we wanted to crunch numbers, are regional and SS attendance figures available anywhere? 

Does the IHSAA rent Lucas Oil or get it for free? I would hate to see the finals moved away for a cost cutting measure. Soccer can play at a HS field, volleyball can play in Muncie, fine. But the football tournament should end at LOS.

Free? 🤣😂😜😅😆

And I think 2008 should be excluded from attendance discussions. First year in a brand new stadium (many Colts fans had never been inside prior to thanksgiving 2008) there was a novelty effect.

 

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2 hours ago, DT said:

Would Merrillville, Warsaw, Homestead, Carroll, Crown Point, Penn or any other 6A school outdraw Carmel in he championship matchup?

I didn't know Carmel had a good following for football. It seems like whenever Snider played at Carmel, the Snider side was just as packed as the Carmel side. Granted, that was 15 years ago when fans still traveled. 

Homestead, Carroll, or Warsaw making the state finals would be a big deal for those communities. They would travel well I'm sure. 

 

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13 hours ago, DT said:

Let's just call it what it is and dont beat around the bush or try to avoid reality

Indy schools have home field advantage in the state finals

They get to sleep in their own beds while others are in cheap hotels

Relax in their own homes while others are driving in winter weather

Maximize practice time and rest while others are traveling

It's a huge advantage for the local schools

 

 

Memorial used the practice day in 2008 and then again in 2009. 2017 and 2018 Memorial/Hurley elected to pass on practicing at LOS. I do give Memorial credit for staying in a really nice downtown hotel all 4 trips while only putting 2 players per room. 

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12 hours ago, dazed and confused said:

I f we could get rid of DST would that get the whole state on the same time ? 

DST isn't the issue...the issue is the SW and NW corners of the state being on CST.  I think it is nuts that any of Indiana is on EST...just my opinion.  

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