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Coaching Turnover - How is it trending Coach Nowlin?

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How is post 2018 season coaching turnover trending compared to prior years?

We've been seeing low to mid 40s numbers over the past several seasons.  That equates to close to a 50% turnover every 3.5 seasons or so.

Sounds awful high to me.

Seems like many of the younger guys are bailing out after just a few seasons.  Too much work?  Not enough pay?  Low numbers?  Poor admin support?  Non competitiveness?  Leaving the profession for a business career?

 

 

 

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Last 3 years or so there have been 50-60 openings I believe on average, I want to say its been a good 5 years since 40, but I don't have any of those data points backed up.  I started the tracking job board stuff around 2013 on here.   

There have been some coaches who have left teaching and coaching all together, make your own conclusions there

Some have taken jobs in administration, such as Jeff Bean left HC of NN (where he was Dean as well as an FYI) and took AD job at Lake Station.  

Those reasons you listed I am sure could have played a factor for any coach who may have left after a few years, sure its plausible, but I think you can say the same for any other jobs out there that folks leave after a few years.   There isn't a one size fits all reason.  

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Frankfort High School:  5 different coaches over the last decade, 4 different coaches in the last 4 seasons alone.

 

 

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Frankfort High School:  5 different coaches over the last decade, 4 different coaches in the last 4 seasons alone.

Results over that decade:  Last over .500 season:  2009.    2 0-10 seasons ( 2011 & 2018).  2 1-9 seasons (2008 & 2017).  2 2-8 seasons (2014 & 2016)

Points scored vs. points allowed over those last 10 seasons:

2009:  ps: 292 pa: 220  (season record: 7-5)

2010:  ps: 321 pa: 325 (season record: 4-7)

2011: ps: 106 pa: 370  (season record 0-10)

2012: ps: 176  pa:  237 (season record 3-7)

2013: ps: 250 pa:  287 (season record 5-6)

2014: ps: 151 pa: 284 (season record 2-8)

2015: ps: 248 pa: 324 (season record 4-6)

2016: ps: 177 pa: 332 (season record 2-8)

2017: ps: 86 pa: 449 (season record 1-9)

2018: ps: 54 pa: 513 (season record 0-10)

W-L records vs opposing schools over the last decade (includes regular season and tournament).  * Indicates Sagamore Conference opponent: 

Clinton Central: 0-1 

Logansport:  1-3

Tri-West*:  1-9

Southmont*: 2-8

Lebanon*: 0-10

Western Boone* : 1-9

Danville*: 3-7

North Montgomery*: 1-9

Crawfordsville: 8-2

Mississinewa: 0-1

Yorktown: 0-1

Western: 5-4

Greenwood: 0-1

Roncalli: 0-1

Norwell: 0-1

New Haven: 0-1

Delta: 0-2

Peru: 2-0

West Lafayette: 0-2

 

 

 

 

 

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Can any of the coaching turnover rate be attributed to some of the education policy changes that have been in place in Indiana over the last few years?  Seems to be a lot of high expectations for an ever shrinking talent pool of teacher coaches. 

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As a society we are not very patient, if things do not improve overnight then we want change.  I still believe it takes close to 7 years to build a program.  You have to get the youth program on board, and the middle school teams implementing your system.  It takes time and if you do not have enough success they pull the plug or a school board member comes after you.  Coaching is tough and the days of seeing one coach at a school for a long period of time is not common anymore.

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I think another issue facing coaching turnover is the coach's family.  Coaching any sport nowadays requires the whole family to be on board.  I am a young(ish) coach with 2 children under the age of two.  When looking for a coaching job, I immediately ask my wife what she thinks about the possibility of moving to the community. My wife has some flexibility with her job, but we can't just pick up and move.  My wife is very supportive and wants me to advance in coaching, but she understands how political some school corporations can be.

Everything Driven T brings up is valid.  I have been a part of a coaching staff where there has been poor admin support.  This has affected coaches drive to coach, wanting to stay in the profession and time which some coaches put in.  Currently I work in a school which does not have football (so I coach at another school), but every time the administration hires a new teacher, coaching any sport is not a conversation to be had.  Some schools are simply devaluing the importance of extra-curricular activities.  It is a sad state of affairs for some schools in Indiana.

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55 minutes ago, MarshallCounty said:

Schools are not actively hiring individuals who coach, and many more educators want nothing to do with coaching.  

Totally agree here

I am very thankful that as a teenager I attended a school where every football staff member 9-12 worked in the corporation, and most in the High school.   Many of the assistants were head coaches in Winter or Spring sports.    I did a lot of school work because I liked and valued my relationship with those teacher/coaches that probably wouldn't have gotten accomplished if I didn't have that depth of relationship with them.   

Why schools can't see that the relationship between coach (or any other beyond the school day activity leader) and participant, is going to more than make up for any perceived lack of skill in the classroom is beyond me.   Moreover,  in most instances, you see the best coaches are the best teachers.  Great communicators who can quickly build relationships with kids.  What more does a school want? 

A lot of the issue lies in the fact that most administrators aren't the grizzled former veteran coaches and teachers that they once were.   With the teaching profession becoming less and less attractive, your seeing more and more young teacher jumping ship from the classroom to administration.  A lot of principals and superintendents out there that have taught for less than 5 years and coached even less.  These people do not value what a great teacher/coach can bring to a school the way that their predecessors once did. 

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Good points, I am one of those former coaches/teachers that moved into administration.  I value the teachers that coach and I agree on their impact.  The fact is there is a shortage of teachers.  We try to hire the best teachers and many do not coach.  It is unfortunate, but when I have 3 candidates for an open position we take the best teacher regardless if they coach.  That has forced us to look for coaches from outside the school.  I do not like it and hope things change soon.

 

 

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THis seems a good place to place this story that I read online from a place in Texas.  Not football...but I'm sure it registers with the football coaching profession as well":

High School Coach Resigns Due to Parent Politics … And It’s Time to Say Something Out Loud

After just a few months into her position as the head volleyball coach at Amarillo High School in Texas’ panhandle, Kori Clements has announced her resignation.

Was it because of an unsuccessful season?

Definitely not. The Sandies went 33-14 before losing in the regional semifinals.

Was it unethical behavior? Some scandal or rules infraction?

Nope. Not that either. Although, you can bet there will always be rumors.

So what was it? What would cause Clements, an AHS grad who also won a national championship as a Nebraska Cornhusker, to resign from her alma mater after her first season at the helm?

In a word: politics. In her statement, Clements explains, “I cannot and will not compromise the integrity of my decisions based on a parent’s political pressure or position. I believe strongly in the value of athletics, that being a part of a team is a privilege, and playing time is earned.”

And all the coaches said, “AMEN.”

Now we don’t know the whole story, or at least her whole story.

But we do know this story of politics, parents, and pressure is not an isolated event. We’ve all watched our coaches deal with it. The emails, the complaints, the being cornered after a game, the late night emails and calls, the demands and threats from parents who think they know better than the coach whose job is literally on the line with every win and every loss.

So parents, I write this to implore you: we’re losing good ones. Good coaches and good teachers are leaving the profession because it’s so hard to do it with integrity.

I get it, your kid deserves to play. She has worked so hard, and if only that coach could see what you see.

Listen, I know there are bad coaches in the world. I’ve played for some and I’ve worked with some. But the vast majority of coaches see our athletes much more clearly than we parents do. We love our kids so stinking much (not a bad thing) and we want the best for them (not a bad thing), but can’t we all admit that that big love might make us a little shortsighted? And can’t we also admit that fighting their battles is not what is best for them?

You know what IS the best for them?

Overcoming adversity.
Working harder than everyone else.
Getting better just for the sake of being better than they were yesterday.
Learning to have hard conversations.
Staying late at practice.
Taking extra shots.
Running extra sprints.
Busting their tail in offseason.
Failing.

It’s hard, I know. And it’s even harder to put into practice.

So let’s just commit to this one thing: Let your kid have the first conversation.

Help prepare him/her for the conversation. A few good questions? How can I get better? What can I do at home? What are a few specific things I need to work on?

And then let’s ask ourselves one thing: What’s my end goal for my kids?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Wedgebuster said:

Totally agree here

I am very thankful that as a teenager I attended a school where every football staff member 9-12 worked in the corporation, and most in the High school.   Many of the assistants were head coaches in Winter or Spring sports.    I did a lot of school work because I liked and valued my relationship with those teacher/coaches that probably wouldn't have gotten accomplished if I didn't have that depth of relationship with them.   

Why schools can't see that the relationship between coach (or any other beyond the school day activity leader) and participant, is going to more than make up for any perceived lack of skill in the classroom is beyond me.   Moreover,  in most instances, you see the best coaches are the best teachers.  Great communicators who can quickly build relationships with kids.  What more does a school want? 

A lot of the issue lies in the fact that most administrators aren't the grizzled former veteran coaches and teachers that they once were.   With the teaching profession becoming less and less attractive, your seeing more and more young teacher jumping ship from the classroom to administration.  A lot of principals and superintendents out there that have taught for less than 5 years and coached even less.  These people do not value what a great teacher/coach can bring to a school the way that their predecessors once did. 

I would agree.  When I went to high school and junior high, all of our coaches were on the faculty.  Some of them solely taught PE classes, but we had a good number that taught honors biology, history, social studies, some that were admin/vice-principals, etc.  You saw coaches everywhere in the school all throughout the day when you went to school.  For those of us on the teams, it was a way for us to see our coaches beyond the sport and for kids that weren't on sports teams, it encouraged some of them to come out because they'd gotten to know that teacher/coach in the classroom and gave them impetus to come out and perhaps engage in another activity that would provide an opportunity to interact with that coach beyond the classroom.

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On 1/18/2019 at 11:24 AM, CoachPeo said:

Good points, I am one of those former coaches/teachers that moved into administration.  I value the teachers that coach and I agree on their impact.  The fact is there is a shortage of teachers.  We try to hire the best teachers and many do not coach.  It is unfortunate, but when I have 3 candidates for an open position we take the best teacher regardless if they coach.  That has forced us to look for coaches from outside the school.  I do not like it and hope things change soon.

 

 

So then my question is, as an administrator, is coaching not a major "plus" for a potential teaching candidate?   I would think that what you can glean from an interview and a resume is pretty limited.  The commitment to kids and community that someone who takes a lot of time out of their day to coach, not to mention the connection with kids that you know will develop from coaching,  in my mind has to at least factor a little bit into the equation.  Can you really gain a significant amount of insight into someone's teaching ability vs someone else's teaching ability from a resume, some letters of recommendation, and an interview? 

I'm a teacher/coach that has been frustrated in the past by watching admin pass over someone that you know would coach for someone who is "better with their use of technology in the classroom"  or "more innovative with their teaching strategies" (in actuality probably just better at throwing out buzz words in their interview).  Only to see that person struggle to connect with kids and therefore struggle as a teacher. 

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To me coaching is still a big factor.  I want my coaches to be in the building working with my kids in the classroom and on the field/court.  However, when I have few candidates I go with who will be the best for the kids in the classroom first.  I cannot speak of other administrators, but I can see through a dog and pony show.  I use my network to find out more about candidates.  Just like when I apply for a job I reach out to people I know who work at a school, or have connections to the school to get a better picture of things.  Coaching has allowed me to develop a large network and it is helpful when making a hire.  As for people getting passed over, I know the feeling firsthand, every administrator has their way and what they are looking for.  

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On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:37 AM, CoachPeo said:

As a society we are not very patient, if things do not improve overnight then we want change.  I still believe it takes close to 7 years to build a program.  You have to get the youth program on board, and the middle school teams implementing your system.  It takes time and if you do not have enough success they pull the plug or a school board member comes after you.  Coaching is tough and the days of seeing one coach at a school for a long period of time is not common anymore.

I believe the HS Coach HAS to be involved with the Youth Program.

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I think first and foremost, some people do not really understand the amount of work and effort that go into head coaching.  I believe that many new head coaches get blown away by the amount of organization, managing, and balancing that must occur in order to change or build a culture once the really get into the thick of it. 

The grind can wear people down.     

X's and O's are just a very small percentage when you look at the bigger factors involved in building and maintaining a culture.  It is mostly a thankless position, and sometimes when you win, you really lose.    

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On 1/18/2019 at 11:24 AM, CoachPeo said:

Good points, I am one of those former coaches/teachers that moved into administration.  I value the teachers that coach and I agree on their impact.  The fact is there is a shortage of teachers.  We try to hire the best teachers and many do not coach.  It is unfortunate, but when I have 3 candidates for an open position we take the best teacher regardless if they coach.  That has forced us to look for coaches from outside the school.  I do not like it and hope things change soon.

 

 

Coach Peo,

I don't believe it is unfortunate that you are hiring the best teacher for the position regardless if they coach.  I have been in the business of coaching and teaching for nearly 25 years.  I have seen lesser teachers hired over highly qualified people, and the result is usually bad.  I have not seen to many bad teachers that are great coaches.  They go hand in hand to me. 

I have also seen my fair share of nepotism in this profession that frustrates good young coaches and even veteran coaches.    

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5 hours ago, 1st_and_10 said:

I believe the HS Coach HAS to be involved with the Youth Program.

I think you are right, but I also think it comes in several ways.  In some cases, the varsity coach kind of "runs" the youth program at some schools.  At LCC, the head coaches' involvement has almost always been from a support standpoint.  I've been a coach in the youth program thereat LCC under six varsity coaches ... seven if you count interim coaches.  All of them have been EXTREMELY supportive of the youth efforts and will help out in whatever way they and their players can, but they've left the drive/direction/focus of the program to the youth coaches.  They are always there for advice when we need it or to confirm our thoughts when we are looking at new things or to just show up at practice and give a talk to the young kids.  They have also been very supportive in letting some of their players leave their practice early to come over and interact with or speak to the young kids about football or doing well in school or just doing their best in whatever they do.  With the new logistics setup, the youth program now practices right next to the varsity and junior high teams, so it's now a lot more like a big family reunion on practice days and we are getting the benefit of proximity with not only the head coach, but the assistants getting more interaction with the youth kids during water breaks or just taking a couple of plays off to come over and watch the youth players run a couple of plays.  The "continuous" contact points between the youth team and the varsity players and coaches goes a long way.

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