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Conference Realignment Rumblings - The Topic That Never Goes Away


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1 hour ago, foxbat said:

I think you'd be more likely to see Westfield and Zionsville push to boot some of the other schools out of the HCC and look at re-votes to admit Carmel and/or Center Grove rather than jump ship to form a new conference.

Westfield was one of the main ones pushing to make sure Carmel and CG did not join the HCC. 

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21 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

Westfield was one of the main ones pushing to make sure Carmel and CG did not join the HCC. 

This is what I heard also.  I also think that Hamilton Southeastern and Fishers would be strongly against Carmel specifically.

It sucks that Carmel loads their trophy case with sectional championship trophies while those two schools, who are usually ranked highly in their respective sports, are watching by the regional round due to geography.

At least if you keep Carmel out of your conference you have an extra chance for some hardware.

Just an opinion, no inside info.

Edited by temptation
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6 minutes ago, temptation said:

This is what I heard also.  I also think that Hamilton Southeastern and Fishers would be strongly against Carmel specifically.

It sucks that Carmel loads their trophy case with sectional championship trophies while those two schools, who are usually ranked highly in their respective sports, are watching by the regional round due to geography.

At least if you keep Carmel out of your conference you have an extra chance for some hardware.

Just an opinion, no inside info.

I think Coach Gilbert feels in his head and in his heart that his program is ready to overtake Center Grove and become the premiere 6A program in the state.  Check out his comments over on the facebook side of The GID.  He is laser focused, and certainly so is his staff and his team.  

https://www.facebook.com/page/278873605556824/search/?q=westfield

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11 minutes ago, DT said:

I think Coach Gilbert feels in his head and in his heart that his program is ready to overtake Center Grove and become the premiere 6A program in the state.  Check out his comments over on the facebook side of The GID.  He is laser focused, and certainly so is his staff and his team.  

https://www.facebook.com/page/278873605556824/search/?q=westfield

Agreed.  

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1 hour ago, DT said:

I think Coach Gilbert feels in his head and in his heart that his program is ready to overtake Center Grove and become the premiere 6A program in the state.  Check out his comments over on the facebook side of The GID.  He is laser focused, and certainly so is his staff and his team.  

https://www.facebook.com/page/278873605556824/search/?q=westfield

Definitely the next up and coming program. And would not be shocked to see them right there in the top 3 very soon. But, it is very known that Westfield did not want Cg or Carmel in that conference and fought hard to make sure it didn’t happen. Why doesn’t Westfield schedule Carmel in the regular season? 

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19 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

Definitely the next up and coming program. And would not be shocked to see them right there in the top 3 very soon. But, it is very known that Westfield did not want Cg or Carmel in that conference and fought hard to make sure it didn’t happen. Why doesn’t Westfield schedule Carmel in the regular season? 

I think Westfield has different reasons for not wanting CA and CG in The HCC

For CA, its practical.  CA is just too big for any conference in Indiana.  They would disrupt the competitive balance in the league in many sports.  Westfield is also Carmel's little brother.  When you grow up in the shadow of your big brother, eventually you want to break away.

With CG, its personal.  Two straight losses in the state finals, the black face incident, and the fact that WF does not get the press coverage and notoriety that is showered on CG . 

Personally, I think CG is a perfect match for The HCC.  But I can also understand Gilberts POV.  He doesn't want to see CG join the conference and immediately sit at the head of the table, when WF has had to scratch and claw its way to the top.  

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12 hours ago, foxbat said:

I think you'd be more likely to see Westfield and Zionsville push to boot some of the other schools out of the HCC and look at re-votes to admit Carmel and/or Center Grove rather than jump ship to form a new conference.

Could be the case.

Unless there's a plan to build a second high school to accommodate the fast growing Whitestown, it's not out of the question to think Zionsville could be pushing 3k students sometime in the next decade. If you subscribe to the theory that low F/R/L makes a spectacular football program, Zionsville should be a major player in 6A for years to come. 

Same rule applies to Westfield. Without a second high school in the works, they will be approaching mega-enrollment sooner than later. Both Westfield and Zionsville's enrollments have doubled in the last 10-15 years. 

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9 hours ago, DT said:

I think Westfield has different reasons for not wanting CA and CG in The HCC

For CA, its practical.  CA is just too big for any conference in Indiana.  They would disrupt the competitive balance in the league in many sports.  Westfield is also Carmel's little brother.  When you grow up in the shadow of your big brother, eventually you want to break away.

With CG, its personal.  Two straight losses in the state finals, the black face incident, and the fact that WF does not get the press coverage and notoriety that is showered on CG . 

Personally, I think CG is a perfect match for The HCC.  But I can also understand Gilberts POV.  He doesn't want to see CG join the conference and immediately sit at the head of the table, when WF has had to scratch and claw its way to the top.  

The quickest way to break out of your big brother's shadow is to kick his *ss ... preferably in front of his friends. 

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3 minutes ago, foxbat said:

The quickest way to break out of your big brother's shadow is to kick his *ss ... preferably in front of his friends. 

Definitely.

Carmel and their 5000+ students aren't going away. Not sure ducking Carmel to pile up HCC regular season championships is going to mean much in the grand scheme of things. Beating them regularly however is a completely different animal. 

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6 minutes ago, foxbat said:

The quickest way to break out of your big brother's shadow is to kick his *ss ... preferably in front of his friends. 

Easier said than done when your big brother has over twice your enrollment.

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Definitely.

Carmel and their 5000+ students aren't going away. Not sure ducking Carmel to pile up HCC regular season championships is going to mean much in the grand scheme of things. Beating them regularly however is a completely different animal. 

Westfield and Carmel will meet many times in the post season.  Really no need for a regular season game, that is "meaningless," according to Bobref.  Why waste all that energy and hype?

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Definitely.

Carmel and their 5000+ students aren't going away. Not sure ducking Carmel to pile up HCC regular season championships is going to mean much in the grand scheme of things. Beating them regularly however is a completely different animal. 

One school in each IHSAA sanctioned sport finishes the season hoisting the state championship trophy and while it’s a legitimate goal for many programs, it’s still a lofty one.

Hard to sell success to your youngsters, community and families when your trophy case doesn’t have many IHSAA tournament trophies…at least accumulating some conference trophies softens the blow and gives you some recognition.

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4 minutes ago, temptation said:

One school in each IHSAA sanctioned sport finishes the season hoisting the state championship trophy and while it’s a legitimate goal for many programs, it’s still a lofty one.

Hard to sell success to your youngsters, community and families when your trophy case doesn’t have many IHSAA tournament trophies…at least accumulating some conference trophies softens the blow and gives you some recognition.

Outside of the Indy Metro madness, high school football is really a local game.  The vast majority of schools in this state will never get past the sectional round.  So winning at the local level, whether it be a conference championship, a county championship, or just winning a rivalry game, are the primary goals for many programs around the state.  

We have a handful of contenders in each class.  After that, everybody is playing to be the best in their own backyard.

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12 minutes ago, DT said:

Outside of the Indy Metro madness, high school football is really a local game.  The vast majority of schools in this state will never get past the sectional round.  So winning at the local level, whether it be a conference championship, a county championship, or just winning a rivalry game, are the primary goals for many programs around the state.  

We have a handful of contenders in each class.  After that, everybody is playing to be the best in their own backyard.

Zionsville and Westfield are both in Metro Indy so that logic doesn't apply here. In the case of Westfield, they are going to have to beat Carmel at some point to win a 6A title as it appears Carmel is back North for the time being and likely awhile. If they ever want the little brother moniker removed, they need to start scheduling and beating Carmel regularly. That's not going to happen by ducking them. 

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5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Zionsville and Westfield are both in Metro Indy so that logic doesn't apply here. In the case of Westfield, they are going to have to beat Carmel at some point to win a 6A title as it appears Carmel is back North for the time being and likely awhile. If they ever want the little brother moniker removed, they need to start scheduling and beating Carmel regularly. That's not going to happen by ducking them. 

Brownsburg disagrees.  I think they surprised the hell out of Carmel last year…would have never happened the way it did had they played in the regular season.

You can get where you want to go without playing someone in the regular season.

Edited by temptation
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18 minutes ago, temptation said:

Easier said than done when your big brother has over twice your enrollment.

Of course it is.  That's the whole issue with big brothers.

Yet Brownsburg, 2995, did it last season and in grand style, 31-7.  And Center Grove, 2754, did it in 2019. 

16 minutes ago, DT said:

Outside of the Indy Metro madness, high school football is really a local game.  The vast majority of schools in this state will never get past the sectional round.  So winning at the local level, whether it be a conference championship, a county championship, or just winning a rivalry game, are the primary goals for many programs around the state.  

We have a handful of contenders in each class.  After that, everybody is playing to be the best in their own backyard.

I like the idea of the backyard, the external, being secondary to my own house, the internal.  The goals I always set for my kids, albeit it was youth ball, always focused on our program regardless of who was on the schedule, as primary goals.  Secondary goals existed with external ties.  The same was true of individual goals ... I always wanted my kids to be able to see goals met during the week ... during practice ... rather than that 32 minutes of game time on Sundays.  That provided lots of opportunity for the kids to strive, meet their goals, and grow.

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5 minutes ago, temptation said:

Brownsburg disagrees.  I think they surprised the hell out of Carmel last year…would have never happened the way it did had they played in the regular season.

You can get where you want to go without playing someone in the regular season.

No one considers Brownsburg "Carmel's little brother".

Westfield and Carmel are natural rivals given the proximity and likeness of both communities . Given Westfield's extreme growth the last decade and the desire to be a major player in 6A, there's no reason why Carmel and Westfield shouldn't be playing every year, regardless if it's due to conference affiliation or not. 

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6 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Of course it is.  That's the whole issue with big brothers.

Yet Brownsburg, 2995, did it last season and in grand style, 31-7.  And Center Grove, 2754, did it in 2019. 

I like the idea of the backyard, the external, being secondary to my own house, the internal.  The goals I always set for my kids, albeit it was youth ball, always focused on our program regardless of who was on the schedule, as primary goals.  Secondary goals existed with external ties.  The same was true of individual goals ... I always wanted my kids to be able to see goals met during the week ... during practice ... rather than that 32 minutes of game time on Sundays.  That provided lots of opportunity for the kids to strive, meet their goals, and grow.

Yes but to be taken seriously, it has to be done consistently.  Brownsburg proved it was still little brother by stubbing it’s toe a week later.

Little brothers do not shed the label until they learn how to handle success consistently/long term.

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4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

No one considers Brownsburg "Carmel's little brother".

Westfield and Carmel are natural rivals given the proximity and likeness of both communities . Given Westfield's extreme growth the last decade and the desire to be a major player in 6A, there's no reason why Carmel and Westfield shouldn't be playing every year, regardless if it's due to conference affiliation or not. 

Brownsburg is a little brother in 6A overall, not necessarily specific to Carmel…hell the entire HCC is as of now.  
 

I caught hell when claiming the HCC had closed the gap and would eventually take over even after citing regular season wins against the MIC.

Its like you said in the off topic forum, Michigan beat OSU last fall but no one truly (including you) believes the rivalry has changed, nor should they.

Edited by temptation
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12 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

No one considers Brownsburg "Carmel's little brother".

Westfield and Carmel are natural rivals given the proximity and likeness of both communities . Given Westfield's extreme growth the last decade and the desire to be a major player in 6A, there's no reason why Carmel and Westfield shouldn't be playing every year, regardless if it's due to conference affiliation or not. 

I remember my college days, driving to/from Terre Haute on the weekends, when I would pass little 'ole Westfield High school on US. 31, with the "Worlds Largest Dairy Queen" caddy cornered from the football field at the intersection of US 31 and SR32:  https://vintageaerial.com/photos/indiana/hamilton/1971/MHA/66/26#:~:text=Comments&text=--This Dairy Queen in,room for the parking lot.

 

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1 minute ago, temptation said:

Brownsburg is a little brother in 6A overall, not necessarily specific to Carmel…hell the entire HCC is as of now.  
 

I caught hell when claiming the HCC had closed the gap and would eventually take over even after citing regular season wins.

Its like you said in the off topic forum, Michigan beat OSU last fall but no one truly (including you) believes the rivalry has changed, nor should they.

But I don't believe Brownsburg is adverse to adding Carmel and Center Grove to the HCC. Westfield on the other hand, from what I've gathered in this thread, is vehemently opposed to the idea. 

Brownsburg at least schedules Ben Davis in the regular season as it makes sense given their west side locations. 

There's no reason why Carmel and Westfield shouldn't play every year in the regular season given Westfield's dynamic growth not only as a school and community, but as a football program. 

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13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

But I don't believe Brownsburg is adverse to adding Carmel and Center Grove to the HCC. Westfield on the other hand, from what I've gathered in this thread, is vehemently opposed to the idea. 

Brownsburg at least schedules Ben Davis in the regular season as it makes sense given their west side locations. 

There's no reason why Carmel and Westfield shouldn't play every year in the regular season given Westfield's dynamic growth not only as a school and community, but as a football program. 

Which begs the question:  SHOULD Brownsburg be adverse to adding Carmel?

I mean, the Bulldogs beat BD in the regular season and got beaten by them in November…

They didn’t play Carmel in the regular season and blew their doors off in November.

Could be a coincidence, sure…

From my understanding, Brownsburg was/is all in on Carmel and CG but they too could benefit from loading their conference trophy case first.

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3 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

 

Unless there's a plan to build a second high school to accommodate the fast growing Whitestown, it's not out of the question to think Zionsville could be pushing 3k students sometime in the next decade. If you subscribe to the theory that low F/R/L makes a spectacular football program, Zionsville should be a major player in 6A for years to come. 

 

Not all of the families moving to Whitestown are in the Zionsville district.  The large Walker Farms subdivision is in the Lebanon district, as well as anything around the 'old' Whitestown.  Worth Township is Lebanon, so maybe we'll start to see some growth in their district.

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I know this is a high school football forum, but could some of the reluctance for Carmel (and possibly CG) to join are due to the other sports??

For example, Carmel girls swimming, etc.

Edited by Bash Riprock
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46 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

But I don't believe Brownsburg is adverse to adding Carmel and Center Grove to the HCC. Westfield on the other hand, from what I've gathered in this thread, is vehemently opposed to the idea. 

Brownsburg at least schedules Ben Davis in the regular season as it makes sense given their west side locations. 

There's no reason why Carmel and Westfield shouldn't play every year in the regular season given Westfield's dynamic growth not only as a school and community, but as a football program. 

Ben Davis and brownsburg will stop playing in regular season within the next year or so. Not sure who was the one who wanted this to stop.

4 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I know this is a high school football forum, but could some of the reluctance for Carmel (and possibly CG) to join are due to the other sports??

For example, Carmel girls swimming, etc.

Really Carmel wins in every sport. Usually the top of the state. CG only has football and track. I don’t see them dominating in other sports all that much. Why is there such a reluctance to let them in a conference?

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