Temp’s Top 25 (8/20/22)

[Footballking16]

36 minutes ago, BTF said:

I get it, we all get it. You just want to pump your chest saying "we're the greatest." Hell, you can't even admit that your Irish have advantages. Luers fans go home every year disappointed after getting thumped by Snider. Is it because Snider has a better program? Hardly. They have an enrollment advantage and Luers doesn't have a metro of 2 million to recruit from, like a certain program in Indy does. When you have an advantage, it's okay to admit it. 

Way to bring up Cathedral in an argument that has nothing to do with Cathedral. Penn has 500 less students than Warren Central, it’s a tiring argument about enrollment. When you have 3,000+ kids in your school, the argument about not being able to put a competitive football team on the field is ridiculous.

Citing Penn’s enrollment to a lack of competitiveness against the Indy hegemony is absolute hog wash.

[BTF]

15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Way to bring up Cathedral in an argument that has nothing to do with Cathedral. Penn has 500 less students than Warren Central, it’s a tiring argument about enrollment. When you have 3,000+ kids in your school, the argument about not being able to put a competitive football team on the field is ridiculous.

Citing Penn’s enrollment to a lack of competitiveness against the Indy hegemony is absolute hog wash.

I agree. Penn just hasn't been the same since Geesman retired. Yoeman is good, but Geesman ranks somewhere in the Top 10 of all time. 

The north only has one program, Penn, that ranks in the Top 10 in enrollments. The three largest schools, Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central also have the most state championships with nine each. Coincidence?

I'm not sure if the forementioned teams are the three largest currently, but they were when they won their 27 state titles. 

You'll also never here me feeling sorry for ANY program with 3000+ students. At least we are on the same page on that one. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by BTF

[PDB26]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

I know where Westfield is located.

I’m tired of hearing about the enrollment “excuse” when it comes to a lack of competitiveness in state title games between Indy area schools and true northern schools. Westfield, at 2600 kids, was more than competitive in their state title game last year. A school like Penn can’t use their enrollment as an excuse as to why they aren’t competitive when they make it to the state finals.

If I were to list factors for success, I'd have the enrollments of any school's opponents above any single school's enrollment. I think Center Grove is a great example. 

[PDB26]

2 hours ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

And at least I list my school that I went to and played for . My guess is the only Football you ever played was in a video game , but you talk smack about Northern schools . I have a blue ring that I earned in football , how many do you have ?

Dude, you can't be serious, right?

[Footballking16]

8 minutes ago, BTF said:

I agree. Penn just hasn't been the same since Geesman retired. Yoeman is good, but Geesman ranks somewhere in the Top 10 of all time. 

The north only has one program, Penn, that ranks in the Top 10 in enrollments. The three largest schools, Carmel, Ben Davis, and Warren Central also have the most state championships with nine each. Coincidence?

I'm not sure if the forementioned teams are the three largest currently, but they were when they won their 27 state titles. 

You'll also never here me feeling sorry for ANY program with 3000+ students. At least we are on the same page on that one. 

Carmel, BD, and Warren are still the 3 largest schools in the state and all 3 are currently 0-1 losing to 3 opponents all with vastly inferior enrollments. Carmel and Warren failed to win their sectional last year  and BD hasn’t played in LOS since 2017. 

[temptation]

Enrollment isn't everything...feel like we've been here before.

With the number of schools over 3000 growing, the advantages once held by the BD's, Warren's and Carmel's of the world are shrinking.  It is all about the realistic number of student-athletes that you can recruit for football.

HSE/Fishers' 3000+ are much different than NC/Warren's...hence the reason the gap has closed and may be completely closed sooner rather than later.

[BTF]

10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Carmel, BD, and Warren are still the 3 largest schools in the state and all 3 are currently 0-1 losing to 3 opponents all with vastly inferior enrollments. Carmel and Warren failed to win their sectional last year  and BD hasn’t played in LOS since 2017. 

They have their down years just like any other program. They're not expected to be the best every year, just expected to have the most championships over the course of time (which they do). And kudos to those programs for having good coaching staffs, that's a key element to this. 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, BTF said:

They have their down years just like any other program. They're not expected to be the best every year, just expected to have the most championships over the course of time (which they do). And kudos to those programs for having good coaching staffs, that's a key element to this. 

The hierarchy of football in central Indiana has drastically changed, even in the last 5 years. WC and BD aren’t shells of their former selfs, and while you can attribute some of that to the pandemic, I’m not sure you’ll ever see either of those programs line up and dominate they way they used too, mega-enrollment or not.

Center Grove is undoubtedly the pinnacle program of central Indiana (as well as the state) and Coach Moore has laid such a tremendous amount of ground work, I’m not sure that is ever going to be reversed. Carmel will always be Carmel, but they were human these last two years after going to the south half of the bracket. They will always be a contender, going north.

Cathedral will be a 6A school for the foreseeable future. They will be a major player in 6A for years to come. 

[BTF]

7 minutes ago, temptation said:

Enrollment isn't everything...feel like we've been here before.

With the number of schools over 3000 growing, the advantages once held by the BD's, Warren's and Carmel's of the world are shrinking.  It is all about the realistic number of student-athletes that you can recruit for football.

HSE/Fishers' 3000+ are much different than NC/Warren's...hence the reason the gap has closed and may be completely closed sooner rather than later.

I feel like teams of the 80's and 90's were at the mercy of the number of pure natural athletes who graced their hallways. Over the last two decades, more sophisticated training is at the disposal for those who can afford it. Hence the reason a suburban school sporting 2500 students can compete with a city school with 4000. 

3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

The hierarchy of football in central Indiana has drastically changed, even in the last 5 years. WC and BD aren’t shells of their former selfs, and while you can attribute some of that to the pandemic, I’m not sure you’ll ever see either of those programs line up and dominate they way they used too, mega-enrollment or not.

Center Grove is undoubtedly the pinnacle program of central Indiana (as well as the state) and Coach Moore has laid such a tremendous amount of ground work, I’m not sure that is ever going to be reversed. Carmel will always be Carmel, but they were human these last two years after going to the south half of the bracket. They will always be a contender, going north.

Cathedral will be a 6A school for the foreseeable future. They will be a major player in 6A for years to come. 

Agree, agree, and agree.

[scarab527]

I think this was mentioned by someone on another thread (sorry, can't remember who or where), but is there an aspect of diminishing returns when it comes to enrollment? Does an extra 500 kids make that big of a difference when we're talking about schools of 2500+ to begin with? 

Edited August 23, 2022 by scarab527

[GOLDRUSH1985]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Way to bring up Cathedral in an argument that has nothing to do with Cathedral. Penn has 500 less students than Warren Central, it’s a tiring argument about enrollment. When you have 3,000+ kids in your school, the argument about not being able to put a competitive football team on the field is ridiculous.

Citing Penn’s enrollment to a lack of competitiveness against the Indy hegemony is absolute hog wash.

Why bring up Penn , When not one Penn Person ever said a word about enrollment ? 

[BTF]

Making a case for Homestead and Carroll:

Their benchmark is Snider, a school with an enrollment of 1800 students. Schools similar to their size, like Center Grove, Brownsburg, and Westfield have the luxury of playing opponents similar in size or even larger in enrollment. Homestead and Carroll, moving forward, get to schedule whoever they want the first two weeks of the season. That will help those programs tremendously. 

Carroll has Hamilton Southeastern and Warren Central next year. HSE and Center grove in 2024.

Homestead has Carmel and Noblesville.

They both improved immensely when joining the SAC, they'll improve even more by playing Indy programs in the future. Stay tuned.

Don't say it Temp. 

1 minute ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Why bring up Penn , When not one Penn Person ever said a word about enrollment ? 

He has a point there King. 

[scarab527]

2 minutes ago, BTF said:

Making a case for Homestead and Carroll:

Their benchmark is Snider, a school with an enrollment of 1800 students. Schools similar to their size, like Center Grove, Brownsburg, and Westfield have the luxury of playing opponents similar in size or even larger in enrollment. Homestead and Carroll, moving forward, get to schedule whoever they want the first two weeks of the season. That will help those programs tremendously. 

Carroll has Hamilton Southeastern and Warren Central next year. HSE and Center grove in 2024.

Homestead has Carmel and Noblesville.

They both improved immensely when joining the SAC, they'll improve even more by playing Indy programs in the future. Stay tuned.

Don't say it Temp. 

This is a big factor. Add in the fact that MIC schools will now be looking for more non-conference games with CG and Carmel no longer in the league. This will give a chance to more non-Indy area teams to schedule them. I think a big reason why the HCC has made such significant strides is that most play 2 MIC teams for their non-con schedule in addition to their HCC schedule. Iron sharpens iron. 

[Footballking16]

19 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

I think this was mentioned by someone on another thread (sorry, can't remember who or where), but is there an aspect of diminishing returns when it comes to enrollment? Does an extra 500 kids make that big of a difference when we're talking about schools of 2500+ to begin with? 

Yes it was me, and it gets redundant after a certain threshold.
 

You need 125-150 kids, grades 9-12, to run a competent 6A football program in my opinion. That’s 12-15% of the male population in a school of 2000 kids. That’s not a reach.

15 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Why bring up Penn , When not one Penn Person ever said a word about enrollment ? 

Because Penn is the poster child of being non-competitive against the Indy hegemony the last 20 years. And it ain’t due to their enrollment, which is BTF claim.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Footballking16

[Muda69]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Because Penn is the poster child of being non-competitive against the Indy hegemony the last 20 years. And it ain’t due to their enrollment, which is BTF claim.

Maybe because their athletes don't have access to or can't afford access to this aforementioned "more sophisticated training" than their Indianapolis area peers.

 

[temptation]

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Maybe because their athletes don't have access to or can't afford access to this aforementioned "more sophisticated training" than their Indianapolis area peers.

 

You are getting closer...

 

25 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

I think this was mentioned by someone on another thread (sorry, can't remember who or where), but is there an aspect of diminishing returns when it comes to enrollment? Does an extra 500 kids make that big of a difference when we're talking about schools of 2500+ to begin with? 

Yes, it does...especially when you factor in SES and other factors.

Tech and CG had similar enrollments at the beginning of the last cycle...but they were/are worlds apart on the gridiron.

Wonder why...

[Footballking16]

6 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Maybe because their athletes don't have access to or can't afford access to this aforementioned "more sophisticated training" than their Indianapolis area peers.

 

You ever been to Granger? SES ain’t the issue.

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, temptation said:

You are getting closer...

 

Yes, it does...especially when you factor in SES and other factors.

Tech and CG had similar enrollments at the beginning of the last cycle...but they were/are worlds apart on the gridiron.

Wonder why...

Every single 6A school, Tech included, has 125-150 male students capable of playing high school football. How well the school corporation, staff, and it school markets it’s football program from the youth system all the way to grade 9 makes a world of a difference. There is zero to no structure in IPS and that’s why Tech has been garbage. But it’s not due to lack of capable bodies.

[GOLDRUSH1985]

13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Yes it was me, and it gets redundant after a certain threshold.
 

You need 125-150 kids, grades 9-12, to run a competent 6A football program in my opinion. That’s 12-15% of the male population in a school of 2000 kids. That’s not a reach.

Because Penn is the poster child of being non-competitive against the Indy hegemony the last 20 years. And it ain’t due to their enrollment, which is BTF claim.

In State Championship Games or all games ? Because Penn  has won the last 2 out of 3 against Carmel.

[Muda69]

6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You ever been to Granger? SES ain’t the issue.

No, I haven't. Sounds like the Carmel/Zionsville of the North.

 

[scarab527]

9 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Yes it was me, and it gets redundant after a certain threshold.
 

You need 125-150 kids, grades 9-12, to run a competent 6A football program in my opinion. That’s 12-15% of the male population in a school of 2000 kids. That’s not a reach.

Because Penn is the poster child of being non-competitive against the Indy hegemony the last 20 years. And it ain’t due to their enrollment, which is BTF claim.

Your logic seems pretty solid there. If someone had the time and the effort, they probably could go back through scores and give a pretty good ballpark number as to where enrollment discrepancies cease to make a significant difference in determining games. 

Penn's problem is indicative of what @BTF is getting at. They are far too big to be playing the schools they do in the NIC. They've tried to mitigate it by playing a tough noncon schedule, but the truth is that playing in that conference is the main factor why they've fallen from grace statewide. You are who you play against. 

[PDB26]

5 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You ever been to Granger? SES ain’t the issue.

But have you ever been to Osceola or Mishawaka?

To your point, SES would have nothing to do with Penn's struggles. 

[GOLDRUSH1985]

IMO , the problem at Penn is coaching period . 

[scarab527]

9 minutes ago, temptation said:

Yes, it does...especially when you factor in SES and other factors.

Tech and CG had similar enrollments at the beginning of the last cycle...but they were/are worlds apart on the gridiron.

Wonder why...

Preaching to the choir here. I don't stick my head in the sand and ignore your SES argument...

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

But have you ever been to Osceola or Mishawaka?

To your point, SES would have nothing to do with Penn's struggles. 

Nor enrollment.

Penn needs to get out and play a big boy football schedule.