5A Tournament: OFFICIAL Thread

[23andCounting]

11 minutes ago, temptation said:

You are the king of “what ifs” and moral victories on this board my dude.

My "what if's" are typically fact. But I wouldn't mind if you elaborate more on "moral victories." 

[temptation]

7 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

My "what if's" are typically fact. But I wouldn't mind if you elaborate more on "moral victories." 

C’mon.  Don’t be purposely obtuse.

You had a week long, 2 page debate regarding Carroll “outhitting” Center Grove.

 

[23andCounting]

13 minutes ago, temptation said:

C’mon.  Don’t be purposely obtuse.

You had a week long, 2 page debate regarding Carroll “outhitting” Center Grove.

 

That's not a moral victory. When Fort Wayne schools like Carroll and Snider play teams from Indianapolis, the expectation is to win, period. I've never believed in moral victories, not for programs like those. Now, what if a program like Jeffersonville comes to Indy and plays one of your big boys to a tight game? In that case, a moral victory is okay. It gives Jeffersonville the confidence that next time they play an Indy team, they might come out on top. Confidence is important. See Curt Cignetti. When your team is confident, they play better. 

Team A outhitting B, even though they lost, isn't a moral victory. It's just an observation that most of the loud pops came from one side of the field. 

[temptation]

48 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

That's not a moral victory. When Fort Wayne schools like Carroll and Snider play teams from Indianapolis, the expectation is to win, period. I've never believed in moral victories, not for programs like those. Now, what if a program like Jeffersonville comes to Indy and plays one of your big boys to a tight game? In that case, a moral victory is okay. It gives Jeffersonville the confidence that next time they play an Indy team, they might come out on top. Confidence is important. See Curt Cignetti. When your team is confident, they play better. 

Team A outhitting B, even though they lost, isn't a moral victory. It's just an observation that most of the loud pops came from one side of the field. 

When you have to cite a statistic that is subjective and doesn’t even appear in the box score of a football contest to support your case, it’s usually a bad look.

The Jeffersonville analogy falls flat on its face as they are one of the worst teams in 6A.  A moral victory for them would be to avoid a running clock.

Carroll (for the sake of this argument) is too good for moral victories.  They have everything in place to win now.

(Also, can we finally stop with the “my big boys” stuff?  I’ve been outspoken on here for years that I want geographical balance and parity in 6A.  I have no rooting interest and would love a non-Indy school to hoist the trophy, despite what you think)

Edited October 29, 2025 by temptation

[23andCounting]

11 minutes ago, temptation said:

1.  When you have to cite a statistic that is subjective and doesn’t even appear in the box score of a football contest to support your case, it’s usually a bad look.

2. The Jeffersonville analogy falls flat on its face as they are one of the worst teams in 6A.  A moral victory for them would be to avoid a running clock.

3. Carroll (for the sake of this argument) is too good for moral victories.  They have everything in place to win now.

4. (Also, can we finally stop with the “my big boys” stuff?  I’ve been outspoken on here for years that I want geographical balance and parity in 6A.  I have no rooting interest and would love a non-Indy school to hoist the trophy, despite what you think)

1.  Wow, that really got to some of you guys. Sorry. 

2.  Again, overthinking. Insert any low tier 6A teams in place of Jeffersonville. 

3.  We agree. Like I said. When they play Indy, the expectation is to win, not come away with a 7 point loss. I love where Dinan has his program. 

4.  What did my "big boy" comment have to do with your affiliation or lack there of? I guess I did say "your." One of Indy's big boys is what I meant. I'm neither here nor there on where you reside. You just seem like a lean toward the HCC is all. 

[FastpacedO]

22 hours ago, Rodney said:

Man the Quakers not even making a footnote in people's posts

I think I have noted it in a few posts back. I feel it is possible for Plainfield to upset New Pal because they have upset a #1 team in Sectionals before, but I don't think it is probable.

Having watched Plainfield lose to Decatur Central 37-19 and New Pal control the game against Decatur Central 28-6. I feel New Pal is the better of the 2 teams.

[Komets2727]

5 hours ago, temptation said:

I get it.  Just making sure to be factually accurate with @Komets2727…he’s hedging so that he can play both sides.

The words “close to” give him an opt out as that is impossible to define.

In the event of a Cathedral win = “I told you so.”

In the event of a New Pal win = “I told you so.”

Lol!!! Nah, you are wrong again. I happen to think it will be a good game and that Cathedral has a good chance to win. No dog in this game so whatever happens, happens. Won’t be any I told you so after this game, but most people have written in ink that New PAL is winning 5A since the year started. I just happen to believe Cathedral can play with them…

[temptation]

34 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

1.  Wow, that really got to some of you guys. Sorry. 

2.  Again, overthinking. Insert any low tier 6A teams in place of Jeffersonville. 

3.  We agree. Like I said. When they play Indy, the expectation is to win, not come away with a 7 point loss. I love where Dinan has his program. 

4.  What did my "big boy" comment have to do with your affiliation or lack there of? I guess I did say "your." One of Indy's big boys is what I meant. I'm neither here nor there on where you reside. You just seem like a lean toward the HCC is all. 

I lean toward the HCC because it is the premier conference in the state and it’s not particularly close.  Nothing more nothing less.

Carmel and CG going back to the MIC should balance things out and make for some fun conversations here in the future.

14 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I think I have noted it in a few posts back. I feel it is possible for Plainfield to upset New Pal because they have upset a #1 team in Sectionals before, but I don't think it is probable.

Having watched Plainfield lose to Decatur Central 37-19 and New Pal control the game against Decatur Central 28-6. I feel New Pal is the better of the 2 teams.

Plainfield would do itself some large favors by bumping up its non-conference slate.  

They seem to have a Decatur Central problem and always seem shell shocked in the tournament after entering with a solid record.

The Mid-State is no slouch but the Quakers are slowly outgrowing it in my opinion.

[temptation]

9 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Lol!!! Nah, you are wrong again. I happen to think it will be a good game and that Cathedral has a good chance to win. No dog in this game so whatever happens, happens. Won’t be any I told you so after this game, but most people have written in ink that New PAL is winning 5A since the year started. I just happen to believe Cathedral can play with them…

On page 1 of this thread, I gave Cathedral a fighting chance, no?

Edited October 29, 2025 by temptation

[23andCounting]

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

I lean toward the HCC because it is the premier conference in the state and it’s not particularly close.  Nothing more nothing less.

Carmel and CG going back to the MIC should balance things out and make for some fun conversations here in the future.

Agree and agree. The million dollar question to me is how to get Crown Point, Penn, Carroll, Homestead, and Elkhart over the hump. How does Dwenger get back to being on the same level as Cathedral like they were back in the 80's and 90's. Dwenger brings kids up through their pipeline, very little use of vouchers over there on Washington Ctr. Rd. So catching up with Cathedral is probably unrealistic. Is a super conference in Northern Indiana the way to go? Or is it more about figuring out how the Curt Cignettis, Kyle Ralf's, Russ Isaacs, Kevin, Wright's, Chris Geesman's, Dick Dullaghan's,  and Eric Moore's of the world do things. I think it's hard for a lot of coaches to keep up with Moore. From what I here, he lives and breathes high school football. Hard to do for a lot of coaches, mostly of whom have families at home. 

So the question becomes: Is it more about competition or more about coaching. 

[temptation]

13 minutes ago, 23andCounting said:

Agree and agree. The million dollar question to me is how to get Crown Point, Penn, Carroll, Homestead, and Elkhart over the hump. How does Dwenger get back to being on the same level as Cathedral like they were back in the 80's and 90's. Dwenger brings kids up through their pipeline, very little use of vouchers over there on Washington Ctr. Rd. So catching up with Cathedral is probably unrealistic. Is a super conference in Northern Indiana the way to go? Or is it more about figuring out how the Curt Cignettis, Kyle Ralf's, Russ Isaacs, Kevin, Wright's, Chris Geesman's, Dick Dullaghan's,  and Eric Moore's of the world do things. I think it's hard for a lot of coaches to keep up with Moore. From what I here, he lives and breathes high school football. Hard to do for a lot of coaches, mostly of whom have families at home. 

So the question becomes: Is it more about competition or more about coaching. 

Both competition AND coaching.

Look whether we want to admit it or not the business world of coaching the ball sports has trickled down to the high school level.  We don’t have to like it and it often seems like misguided priorities but the 6A Indy area stalwarts treat their football coaches as CEOs.

As discussed in the other thread, gone are the days when big boy football coaches are teaching a full load on a daily basis prior to practice.  I can only speak about the schools in my area, but it seems relatively new in other parts of the state.  Been going on in Indy/suburbs for 2+ decades.

Stockpiling talent with the new transfer rules along with adopting the above philosophy is the quickest path to those schools closing the gap.

Just my opinion.

As far as the competition part goes, Crown Point, Homestead and Carroll to be challenging themselves in the non-conference part of their schedule which is also important.

 

Edited October 29, 2025 by temptation

[23andCounting]

4 minutes ago, temptation said:

Both competition AND coaching.

Look whether we want to admit it or not the business world of coaching the ball sports has trickled down to the high school level.  We don’t have to like it and it often seems like misguided priorities but the 6A Indy area stalwarts treat their football coaches as CEOs.

As discussed in the other thread, gone are the days when big boy football coaches are teaching a full load on a daily basis prior to practice.  I can only speak about the schools in my area, but it seems relatively new in other parts of the state.  Been going on in Indy/suburbs for 2+ decades.

Stockpiling talent with the new transfer rules along with adopting the above philosophy is the quickest path to those schools closing the gap.

Just my opinion.

As far as the competition part goes, Crown Point, Homestead and Carroll to be challenging themselves in the non-conference part which is also important.

 

Good stuff, agree with all. 

[Komets2727]

34 minutes ago, temptation said:

On page 1 of this thread, I gave Cathedral a fighting chance, no?

What part of most people is hard to understand? If I am going to call you out, I will say Temp. The only person that is questioning me further though is you. I give Cathedral about a 40% chance to win for the record

[temptation]

4 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

What part of most people is hard to understand? If I am going to call you out, I will say Temp. The only person that is questioning me further though is you. I give Cathedral about a 40% chance to win for the record

Do you give the winner of the Cathedral/New Pal game a 100% chance to win the title?

[Komets2727]

1 minute ago, temptation said:

Do you give the winner of the Cathedral/New Pal game a 100% chance to win the title?

Not 100%, but probably 95%. I do think Cathedral would be more prone to being upset than New Pal if they advance though 

[temptation]

1 hour ago, Komets2727 said:

Not 100%, but probably 95%. I do think Cathedral would be more prone to being upset than New Pal if they advance though 

Agree.

[FastpacedO]

3 hours ago, 23andCounting said:

Agree and agree. The million dollar question to me is how to get Crown Point, Penn, Carroll, Homestead, and Elkhart over the hump. How does Dwenger get back to being on the same level as Cathedral like they were back in the 80's and 90's. Dwenger brings kids up through their pipeline, very little use of vouchers over there on Washington Ctr. Rd. So catching up with Cathedral is probably unrealistic. Is a super conference in Northern Indiana the way to go? Or is it more about figuring out how the Curt Cignettis, Kyle Ralf's, Russ Isaacs, Kevin, Wright's, Chris Geesman's, Dick Dullaghan's,  and Eric Moore's of the world do things. I think it's hard for a lot of coaches to keep up with Moore. From what I here, he lives and breathes high school football. Hard to do for a lot of coaches, mostly of whom have families at home. 

So the question becomes: Is it more about competition or more about coaching. 

Two things that can be modeled is what Coach Moore has done at Center Grove:

1.) Youth football, if your program wants to model success head on down to Bargersville and check out Center Grove Bantam Football. Coach Moore implemented stuff with a lot of buy in from the Youth Football Board. Emulate that and your success will go way up. The Center Grove offense will line up in many formations but their bread and butter is the Wing T and all of them could run it in their sleep they have been doing it since they were 8 years old.

2.) Speed development overall. Center Grove when it joined the MIC was not near the top of the schools with speed. Coach Moore being the Football HC and Track and Field HC put a large focus n speed development and they had to out of necessity in playing the Warren Central and Ben Davis. Fast forward to today and Center Grove has as much if not more speed (even though they had a hiatus from the MIC but are going back).

Those are 2 areas that take care of 1 "fundamentals" and 2 "speed". The old saying is speed kills and couple that with fundamentals and discipline. You are on the right track.

[PHJIrish]

21 hours ago, SMAUG said:

PHJ -  If this contest happens, I will personally make certain you get to this game.  If you feel up to it, call/text me anytime 463 269-6064 and I’ll take it from there - it would be my pleasure.  We can cheer for different teams and be gentlemen at the same time - it is possible.

Thanks for the offer, I truly appreciate it!  Transportation is not my major problem.  Getting healthy is.  I'm better today, even got out of the house for lunch today.  I live on the west side of Marion County, near Covenant Christian, but I will either drive to the game or go with my sidekick of many years.  

[23andCounting]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

Two things that can be modeled is what Coach Moore has done at Center Grove:

1.) Youth football, if your program wants to model success head on down to Bargersville and check out Center Grove Bantam Football. Coach Moore implemented stuff with a lot of buy in from the Youth Football Board. Emulate that and your success will go way up. The Center Grove offense will line up in many formations but their bread and butter is the Wing T and all of them could run it in their sleep they have been doing it since they were 8 years old.

2.) Speed development overall. Center Grove when it joined the MIC was not near the top of the schools with speed. Coach Moore being the Football HC and Track and Field HC put a large focus n speed development and they had to out of necessity in playing the Warren Central and Ben Davis. Fast forward to today and Center Grove has as much if not more speed (even though they had a hiatus from the MIC but are going back).

Those are 2 areas that take care of 1 "fundamentals" and 2 "speed". The old saying is speed kills and couple that with fundamentals and discipline. You are on the right track.

Good stuff. 

One of the other coaches I mentioned, Russ Isaacs, implemented "year round training" back in the early 90's. His teams competed with all comers for about two decades and I believe it had a lot to do with the speed training you referenced. Why all coaches aren't doing it is beyond me. I imagine a lot of coaches aren't going to "push" track onto their players with the same intensity that a Moore or Isaacs might. I guess a kid needs to ask himself, "if I'm going to be the best I can be, would it be beneficial for me to run track to improve my speed?" It really comes down to "buy in" of the program and the coach who runs it. Kudos to guys like Moore, Isaacs, and anyone else who gets these kind of results from their players. 

[temptation]

2 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Two things that can be modeled is what Coach Moore has done at Center Grove:

1.) Youth football, if your program wants to model success head on down to Bargersville and check out Center Grove Bantam Football. Coach Moore implemented stuff with a lot of buy in from the Youth Football Board. Emulate that and your success will go way up. The Center Grove offense will line up in many formations but their bread and butter is the Wing T and all of them could run it in their sleep they have been doing it since they were 8 years old.

2.) Speed development overall. Center Grove when it joined the MIC was not near the top of the schools with speed. Coach Moore being the Football HC and Track and Field HC put a large focus n speed development and they had to out of necessity in playing the Warren Central and Ben Davis. Fast forward to today and Center Grove has as much if not more speed (even though they had a hiatus from the MIC but are going back).

Those are 2 areas that take care of 1 "fundamentals" and 2 "speed". The old saying is speed kills and couple that with fundamentals and discipline. You are on the right track.

Spot on.

[FastpacedO]

13 hours ago, 23andCounting said:

Good stuff. 

One of the other coaches I mentioned, Russ Isaacs, implemented "year round training" back in the early 90's. His teams competed with all comers for about two decades and I believe it had a lot to do with the speed training you referenced. Why all coaches aren't doing it is beyond me. I imagine a lot of coaches aren't going to "push" track onto their players with the same intensity that a Moore or Isaacs might. I guess a kid needs to ask himself, "if I'm going to be the best I can be, would it be beneficial for me to run track to improve my speed?" It really comes down to "buy in" of the program and the coach who runs it. Kudos to guys like Moore, Isaacs, and anyone else who gets these kind of results from their players. 

My biggest example of speed is probably the 2023 6A State Championship between Ben Davis and Crown Point (there have been other years but this is the most recent). Crown Point had a couple of fast players at QB and RB, but they had not through their entire season played a team with the team speed Ben Davis brought Offensively and Defensively. When BD was on defense it was very evident. The CP O-line had not faced the speed along the D-line. The offensive skill players were use to their speed in open field getting them big gains but when BD could match that speed and then some with 6-7 guys closing once they got past the first level.

I don't mean that as a negative for Crown Point. Center Grove had the same problem in 1998 and 1999 having solid teams that just got outmatched with the speed some of the MIC teams were bringing. It was in the early stages at CG of the speed development. You could really see it pay dividends in 2000 when CG had lost to Ben Davis in the regular season 29-14 and beat them at Ben Davis in the Semi-State with Zwitt and McClurg. They got banged up and ran into a very good Penn team in the State Championship 21-0. It took a few more years to develop overall Team speed. Since that time CG has been 5-2 in the State Championship losing 1 in OT to Carmel 16-13 in 2016 and losing another in 2019 to Carmel 20-17 (those teams were very familiar with each other having played in the regular season. It takes patience for sure and I think Coach Buzea has the Bulldogs on the right track. I think Coach Dinan has the Chargers on the right track too and they have stepped up their non-conference games the last few years. 

[Muda69]

15 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

The Center Grove offense will line up in many formations but their bread and butter is the Wing T and all of them could run it in their sleep they have been doing it since they were 8 years old.

Sounds boring.  Good little football automatons. 

Whatever happened to Jimmy's and Joe's beat X's & O's?

 

[FastpacedO]

12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Sounds boring.  Good little football automatons. 

Whatever happened to Jimmy's and Joe's beat X's & O's?

 

Center Grove has both Jimmy's and Joe's and X's and O's most years.

Football has been a chess match for years. Center Grove will run formations and plays outside of the Wing T now, but you will see them line-up to their bread and butter. And if you can't stop it, you will get a heavy dose of it.

[RegionFBFan]

20 hours ago, 23andCounting said:

Agree and agree. The million dollar question to me is how to get Crown Point, Penn, Carroll, Homestead, and Elkhart over the hump. How does Dwenger get back to being on the same level as Cathedral like they were back in the 80's and 90's. Dwenger brings kids up through their pipeline, very little use of vouchers over there on Washington Ctr. Rd. So catching up with Cathedral is probably unrealistic. Is a super conference in Northern Indiana the way to go? Or is it more about figuring out how the Curt Cignettis, Kyle Ralf's, Russ Isaacs, Kevin, Wright's, Chris Geesman's, Dick Dullaghan's,  and Eric Moore's of the world do things. I think it's hard for a lot of coaches to keep up with Moore. From what I here, he lives and breathes high school football. Hard to do for a lot of coaches, mostly of whom have families at home. 

So the question becomes: Is it more about competition or more about coaching. 

It is more about competition than coaching. 6A North just simply do not have enough 6A schools in a close geographic area like the Indy and the surrounding Metro area. Of the 32 teams in 6A, I count 19-20 that are in the Metro area. The remaining 12-13 teams are spread throughout the rest of Indiana. The competition factor also elevates the coaching abilities in terms of preparation and in game coaching.

Many of these 6A schools in the North have great facilities, good youth football programs and multiple middle school feeders just like Indy metro 6A schools.

Yes, scheduling would help improve 6A North but it is easier said than done and still would not be adequate since they could not do it every week of the season. 6A Teams in Indy do not have that problem.

i like to use Ohio as an example, the large schools are not dominated by one metro like Indiana. Yes, they have multiple metro areas but this reinforces the competition factor in all of those metro areas. They play similar competition every single week during the season. You can not say that about Indiana. 

[23andCounting]

24 minutes ago, RegionFBFan said:

It is more about competition than coaching. 6A North just simply do not have enough 6A schools in a close geographic area like the Indy and the surrounding Metro area.

I'd never put competition over coaching. Geesman and Isaacs routinely put together the best teams in the state, even after playing a soft schedule. However, I do agree with your second sentence. A northern super conference would be Ideal. I want to say it was DT who first suggested it. First thought for most coaches would be too much travel, but if you dig deep, you'll probably only have two or three long road trips during the regular season.