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Who are the teams to watch in Fall of 2019?

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5 hours ago, BTF said:

Only down slightly as a result of losing three and gaining two. The quality of teams are the same.

well, those 3 have combined for 24 football state championships . . . 

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6 hours ago, BTF said:

Only down slightly as a result of losing three and gaining two. The quality of teams are the same.

Top to bottom might only be slightly down but the gains are no where near the quality of the losses.

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10 hours ago, dmizers3 said:

Top to bottom might only be slightly down but the gains are no where near the quality of the losses.

This is getting comical. Be careful, New Pal thought they were unstoppable a few years ago and then found themselves down 42-14 in the championship game.

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43 minutes ago, BTF said:

This is getting comical. Be careful, New Pal thought they were unstoppable a few years ago and then found themselves down 42-14 in the championship game.

This has nothing to do with New Pal. You just seem to be dismissing the quality of Columbus East,  Cathedral and Roncalli who will no longer be in 5A and thinking the additions of Dwenger and Snider balance that out, that's what is comical. 

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17 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

This has nothing to do with New Pal. You just seem to be dismissing the quality of Columbus East,  Cathedral and Roncalli who will no longer be in 5A and thinking the additions of Dwenger and Snider balance that out, that's what is comical. 

The fact of the matter is, it's about quantity, not quality. Lose three, gain two. Snider, Dwenger, Cathedral, Roncalli, and Columbus East are on a level playing field. No one is dismissing the quality of the three teams from the south. Weren't you the one who said "the gains are no where near the quality of the losses"? Your not going to get anyone from Fort Wayne to buy into that statement. Sounds like you are the one dismissing the quality of the north.  So if you what you are looking for are posters who will jump on your "5a is down" bandwagon, you might what to restart this thread, draw a horizontal line through Indianapolis, and invite only posters south of that line.

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm all in for Edinburgh this year.

Bought my "Shake Weight" there.  Best fitness device ever.

You should see my forearms.

Edited by Lysander
  • Haha 3

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

The fact of the matter is, it's about quantity, not quality. Lose three, gain two. Snider, Dwenger, Cathedral, Roncalli, and Columbus East are on a level playing field. No one is dismissing the quality of the three teams from the south. Weren't you the one who said "the gains are no where near the quality of the losses"? Your not going to get anyone from Fort Wayne to buy into that statement. Sounds like you are the one dismissing the quality of the north.  So if you what you are looking for are posters who will jump on your "5a is down" bandwagon, you might what to restart this thread, draw a horizontal line through Indianapolis, and invite only posters south of that line.

 

Didn't say 5A was down.  Nor did I dismiss the North. Not sure I'd agree with your assessment that the 5 schools in question are on an even playing field, that's all.  Clearly we will have to agree to disagree on that one.  It will play out in the fall and should be fun to watch and argue about.  That's what makes sports interesting. 

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18 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

Not sure I'd agree with your assessment that the 5 schools in question are on an even playing field, that's all. 

Elaborate if you would. Thanks.

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Posted (edited)

Not sure where y'all are going with this...not sure I am following.  No one is denying the excellence of New Pal these last few years or the long term greatness of Snider.

Historically (I have said this 1,000 times), I felt for many years that the best classes pound for pound were 2A and 4A (prior to the expansion to 6A).  5A initially was fairly weak (Snider had a couple of down years about then).  Then some 4A teams (maybe just one - Cathedral) moved up to populate 5A.

Since then, it has changed with 3A becoming a stud class (which it had not been historically) with both 2A and 4A weaker. 4A for a few years has been pretty weak (since all the great 4A teams were now in 5A)- almost as weak as 5A in the beginning.

Probably the greatest (certainly the most entertaining) State Championship game I ever saw was New Pal v. Snider.

Last year's Evansville Memorial v. West Lafayette game was pretty amazing too.

No one is denying just how good New Pal and Snider have been these last few years....and I certainly don't forget how many years Snider provided Carmel their toughest playoff game on the way to LOS. 

 

Edited by Lysander
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17 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Not sure where y'all are going with this...not sure I am following.  No one is denying the excellence of New Pal these last few years or the long term greatness of Snider.

Historically (I have said this 1,000 times), I felt for many years that the best classes pound for pound were 2A and 4A (prior to the expansion to 6A).  5A initially was fairly weak (Snider had a couple of down years about then).  Then the some 4A teams (maybe just one - Cathedral) moved up to populate 5A.

Since then, it has changed with 3A becoming a stud class (which it had not been historically) with both 2A and 4A weaker.

Probably the greatest (certainly the most entertaining) State Championship game I ever saw was New Pal v. Snider.

Last year's Evansville Memorial v. West Lafayette game was pretty amazing too.

No one is denying just how good New Pal and Snider have been these last few years....and I certainly don't forget how many years Snider provided Carmel their toughest playoff game on the way to LOS. 

 

Good post. The bottom line.................5a is still solid. The south took a hit, but the north is stronger. Really no other way to look at it.

True fact. Snider is 0-7 against Carmel in games decided by 3 points or less.

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On 4/2/2019 at 10:16 AM, BTF said:

No one is denying just how good New Pal and Snider have been these last few years....and I certainly don't forget how many years Snider provided Carmel their toughest playoff game on the way to LOS. 

That was back 15-20 years ago. Nowadays I just don't think Snider can compete year in and year out vs Carmel or Penn for that matter. The best fit, IMO is 5A for Snider.

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3 hours ago, psaboy said:

That was back 15-20 years ago. Nowadays I just don't think Snider can compete year in and year out vs Carmel or Penn for that matter. The best fit, IMO is 5A for Snider.

Disagree 100%.

Out of 37 teams in 5a, Snider will be top 5 most years, top 10 every year. In 6a, they are top 15 every year, and top 5 some years. The better fit is 6a. Case in point.............Sagarin had Snider at #11 to finish last season and that was just an AVERAGE Snider team...... at best. The gap between the good and the bad in 6a is sickening. Losing Snider doesn't do 6a any favors from a competitive standpoint.

The season before last, Snider had Carmel down 2 touchdowns before self destructing late in the game and losing by 1. Snider beat Penn in 2012 (7 years ago), lost in 2013 & 2014, and IMO, would have beaten them in 2015. Last year, Sagarin had Snider at #11, Penn at #17.

I may be a bit of old school, but the playoffs aren't the playoffs if Snider's not butting heads with either Carmel or Penn.

 

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3 hours ago, psaboy said:

That was back 15-20 years ago. Nowadays I just don't think Snider can compete year in and year out vs Carmel or Penn for that matter. The best fit, IMO is 5A for Snider.

Not looking to insert myself into an internecine disagreement but Snider has been competitive well within the last 15-20 years in 6A.

2017 – Carmel defeats Snider 22-21 in Regional (Carmel loses to Penn in Semistate)

2012 – Snider makes it to the State Championship in 5A (still basically 6A at that time) and loses to Lawrence Central

2009 – Carmel defeats Snider 10-7 in Regional (Carmel loses to WC in 2OTs at LOS)

2008 – Carmel defeats Snider 24-21 in Regional (Carmel loses to Center Grove by 3 at LOS)

For 5 years (2013-16) Snider was in 5A so didn’t have a chance to play Carmel.

That said, I think teams should likely play in their class as defined by student population – so Snider should play in 5A.  Even so, Snider has been competitive against Carmel – but it wasn’t just 15-20 years ago.  Snider made it to State in the equivalent of 6A (then 5A) just 7 seasons ago.

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It's my understanding that a school can petition to play up in classification if it so chooses.  Otherwise, Snider's performance and enrollment decide what class they play. 

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3 hours ago, Staxawax said:

It's my understanding that a school can petition to play up in classification if it so chooses.  Otherwise, Snider's performance and enrollment decide what class they play. 

Correct. Not sure anyone is debating that fact. On one hand, you could say Snider's performance in 6a is what bumped them back down. However, a team could be Top 10 two years in a row and have the misfortune of running into Carmel at the regional level both years. Therefore, not accumulating enough points to stay in that class.

The debate on this thread is whether or not Snider is competitive at the 6a level. Facts going back a decade indicate an overwhelming yes.

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31 minutes ago, BTF said:

Correct. Not sure anyone is debating that fact. On one hand, you could say Snider's performance in 6a is what bumped them back down. However, a team could be Top 10 two years in a row and have the misfortune of running into Carmel at the regional level both years. Therefore, not accumulating enough points to stay in that class.

The debate on this thread is whether or not Snider is competitive at the 6a level. Facts going back a decade indicate an overwhelming yes.

To give you an idea of the respect for Snider, our HOF head coach had a JV game date open up and he scheduled Snider. He attended the game on a practice/Monday night, so it really meant something to him. Told the boys (I’m paraphrasing) if you’re going to be an elite 6A team this is the competition you must defeat to do so. 

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21 hours ago, BTF said:

Disagree 100%.

Out of 37 teams in 5a, Snider will be top 5 most years, top 10 every year. In 6a, they are top 15 every year, and top 5 some years. The better fit is 6a. Case in point.............Sagarin had Snider at #11 to finish last season and that was just an AVERAGE Snider team...... at best. The gap between the good and the bad in 6a is sickening. Losing Snider doesn't do 6a any favors from a competitive standpoint.

The season before last, Snider had Carmel down 2 touchdowns before self destructing late in the game and losing by 1. Snider beat Penn in 2012 (7 years ago), lost in 2013 & 2014, and IMO, would have beaten them in 2015. Last year, Sagarin had Snider at #11, Penn at #17.

I may be a bit of old school, but the playoffs aren't the playoffs if Snider's not butting heads with either Carmel or Penn.

 

Snider is 2-5 against Carmel in past 15 years and 2-5 vs Penn. So IMO that is not very competitive. If they had a record that was closer to .500, I would then say they are or were competitive. Believe me, I love it when they face those two teams,  but they are likely to lose more than they are likely to win in those matchups. Sagarin ratings are just that, a rating, doesn't really mean much.

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16 hours ago, psaboy said:

Snider is 2-5 against Carmel in past 15 years and 2-5 vs Penn. So IMO that is not very competitive. If they had a record that was closer to .500, I would then say they are or were competitive. Believe me, I love it when they face those two teams,  but they are likely to lose more than they are likely to win in those matchups. Sagarin ratings are just that, a rating, doesn't really mean much.

So if it was 3-4 instead of 2-5, a 1 game difference but really close to the .500 mark you'd say they were competitive? Just a games difference? And it looks like they've has some really good games with Carmel. Seem's pretty competitive to me, just my opinion tho!

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5 hours ago, sbriant20 said:

So if it was 3-4 instead of 2-5, a 1 game difference but really close to the .500 mark you'd say they were competitive? Just a games difference? And it looks like they've has some really good games with Carmel. Seem's pretty competitive to me, just my opinion tho!

I doubt you'll get anyone from Indianapolis who'll say "we don't wanna play Snider because it won't be a competitive game." Ben Davis, Carmel, Warren Central, ect. Snider's played them all. Two seasons ago Snider had Carmel down 14 points late in the 3rd and pinned at there own 10 yard line. Then a roughing the punter was called and that pretty much changed the dynamic of the game. Carmel won 22-21. Carmel is 7-0 against Snider in games decided by 3 points or less. So yes, most of the time it's a competitive game. I remember a couple of blowouts that Snider handed to Carmel. When Carmel win's big, it's always by 2 or 3 touchdowns, but no more.

Penn has won 3 of the last 4.  Overall, I think Penn holds a one or two game advantage in 20+ meetings.

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23 hours ago, HSFBFan64 said:

To give you an idea of the respect for Snider, our HOF head coach had a JV game date open up and he scheduled Snider. He attended the game on a practice/Monday night, so it really meant something to him. Told the boys (I’m paraphrasing) if you’re going to be an elite 6A team this is the competition you must defeat to do so. 

Warsaw has a smart head coach. It seems like he want's to be more than competitive at the 6a level. He probably has his sights on winning the whole thing. I'm looking forward to seeing how well Warsaw does over the next couple of years.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, BTF said:

I doubt you'll get anyone from Indianapolis who'll say "we don't wanna play Snider because it won't be a competitive game." Ben Davis, Carmel, Warren Central, ect. Snider's played them all. Two seasons ago Snider had Carmel down 14 points late in the 3rd and pinned at there own 10 yard line. Then a roughing the punter was called and that pretty much changed the dynamic of the game. Carmel won 22-21. Carmel is 7-0 against Snider in games decided by 3 points or less. So yes, most of the time it's a competitive game. I remember a couple of blowouts that Snider handed to Carmel. When Carmel win's big, it's always by 2 or 3 touchdowns, but no more.

Penn has won 3 of the last 4.  Overall, I think Penn holds a one or two game advantage in 20+ meetings.

All I'm trying to say is the Snider is not as competitive against Carmel and Penn as they used to be. They are 8-9 all time vs Penn and 4-9 vs Carmel. I remember the game two years ago against Carmel when Snider went into thug mode with a few personal foul flags that shifted the game. Yes, they were competitive in that game, probably the better team, but they lost. Snider has "blown" out Carmel twice, Carmel has three W's of 17 or more points. I count 6 games that Carmel has won vs Snider by 3 or less. 

Edited by psaboy

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On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 7:57 PM, psaboy said:

Sagarin ratings are just that, a rating, doesn't really mean much.

I don't think they mean much either.........................until November. By then, I think the Sagarin has a pretty good handle on things. Honestly, I think they would be more accurate if they calculated the score after 3 periods instead of the entire game. Some teams keep their starters in the whole game even when it's a blowout. Others pull their starters after the 3rd.

1 hour ago, psaboy said:

All I'm trying to say is the Snider is not as competitive against Carmel and Penn as they used to be.

Student body in the 80's and 90's consisted of 2100-2200 kids. Nowadays it's around 1700-1800. So yes, I do agree that it is a bit more challenging. Also, many white collar families have moved out of the Snider district and into Carroll and Homestead over the past couple of decades. That makes a difference too.

1 hour ago, psaboy said:

They are 8-9 all time vs Penn and 4-9 vs Carmel.

How far back are you going? I'm certain Snider and Penn have played over 20 games.

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

I don't think they mean much either.........................until November. By then, I think the Sagarin has a pretty good handle on things. Honestly, I think they would be more accurate if they calculated the score after 3 periods instead of the entire game. Some teams keep their starters in the whole game even when it's a blowout. Others pull their starters after the 3rd.

Student body in the 80's and 90's consisted of 2100-2200 kids. Nowadays it's around 1700-1800. So yes, I do agree that it is a bit more challenging. Also, many white collar families have moved out of the Snider district and into Carroll and Homestead over the past couple of decades. That makes a difference too.

How far back are you going? I'm certain Snider and Penn have played over 20 games.

Your points on Sagarin are good, I also don't like that all SAC teams play all in conference games, so that may limit their "upward" mobility?? I was going to point the school sizes out in my previous points, I think that has a lot to do with them. 15-20 years ago, Snider's gap in attendance was not as big compared to Penn and Carmel.

The records are all time records from the Snider Football web site.

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13 hours ago, BTF said:

Honestly, I think they would be more accurate if they calculated the score after 3 periods instead of the entire game. Some teams keep their starters in the whole game even when it's a blowout. Others pull their starters after the 3rd.

Interesting thought.  You might well be right about that.

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