What is happening to Terre Haute Enrollments?

[Guest DT]

4 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

If they did that, they shouldn't bother fielding sports teams. The Indy schools always complain about traveling, and they would be the only schools in the class of a consolidated Terre Haute High. 

Why not just remain where they are in Conference Indiana?

[DanteEstonia]

2 minutes ago, DT said:

Why not just remain where they are in Conference Indiana?

1. 5-team conferences are not stable.

2. They would be at least 400 kids larger than the next largest CI school, Southport.

3. The drive from Columbus to Terre Haute doesn't go away. 

[Guest DT]

2 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

1. 5-team conferences are not stable.

2. They would be at least 400 kids larger than the next largest CI school, Southport.

3. The drive from Columbus to Terre Haute doesn't go away. 

It certainly is a dilemma.  But when it comes down to the bottom line, I would think TH planners would value education over athletics when determining to go forward with one school or with two.  

[oldtimeqb]

1 hour ago, DT said:

A single TH high school supporting 2500-3000 students with new technological upgrades will provide a better educational experience for local students, and possibly attract enough new industry to maintain new lower population levels.  This is the strategy in Hammond, Muncie  and Elkhart.  

 

 

Have there been studies on the optimal size of a HS? Do 2500-3000 students schools provide a better educational experience than 1,000? 2,000? What about 5,000 students like Carmel? Claiming enrollment is positively correlated with educational experience is a pretty bold claim. 
 

And improved schools attracting industry? I’m not even going to begin with that unfounded claim. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by oldtimeqb

[Guest DT]

Just now, DT said:

It certainly is a dilemma.  But when it comes down to the bottom line, I would think TH planners would value education over athletics when determining to go forward with one school or with two.  

I think we will see a change in the high school athletic menu in the next decade.  Many schools will lkely drop select sports completely in the post covid world, or possibly convert them to club sports.  Golf is a good example.  Swimming as well.  Why should some of these specialized, low participation sports keep schools out of conferences where they might be a perfect fit for the revenue sports of football and basketball?  Golf and swimmin are not team sports, they are individual sports.  Let the kids compete at the club level.  

[DanteEstonia]

2 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Have there been studies on the optimal size of a HS?

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/01623737019003205?journalCode=epaa

From the Abstract:

Quote

Results suggest that the ideal high school, defined in terms of effectiveness (i.e., learning), enrolls between 600 and 900 students. In schools smaller than this, students learn less; those in large high schools (especially over 2,100) learn considerably less.

 

There is a cost-effectiveness point, however. 

[Guest DT]

1 minute ago, DanteEstonia said:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/01623737019003205?journalCode=epaa

From the Abstract:

 

Lake Central went through this decision making process 10 years ago.  As school enrollment approachged 3000, they needed to make a decision to expand the existing school, or build a second one.  They chose to expand.  Elkhart, Muncie, Anderson and South Bend have all close and consolidated schools.  From a financial standpoint, it doesnt cost much more to byuild a 2000 student school than a 1000 student school.  So you tend to invest and go bigger and grow into it over time.  

I really like what Hammond has done,  I think it will revitalize the community.  The traditional educational experience that we used to know is over.  The new Hammond Central High will be a state of the art complex that will incorporate all the new technology at hand.  It will be a draw to students from around the area, including into Illinois.  

 

[DanteEstonia]

4 minutes ago, DT said:

From a financial standpoint, it doesnt cost much more to byuild a 2000 student school than a 1000 student school

-if you don't already own the land. Vigo County School Corporation already owns land for two high schools. 

[DanteEstonia]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:38 AM, DanteEstonia said:

Here's the new CI, as proposed by Dante Estonia:

TH South

TH North 

BHSS

BHSN

BNL 

Martinsville

Northview

With enrollments from IDOE-

TH South- 1,463

TH North- 1,432

BHSS- 1,678

BHSN- 1,585

BNL- 1,472

Martinsville- 1,292

Northview- 995

 

If conferences are made up of similar schools, as @crimsonace1 has stated, these schools are more alike now than ever before in their histories. 

[Gipper]

13 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

With enrollments from IDOE-

TH South- 1,463

TH North- 1,432

BHSS- 1,678

BHSN- 1,585

BNL- 1,472

Martinsville- 1,292

Northview- 995

 

If conferences are made up of similar schools, as @crimsonace1 has stated, these schools are more alike now than ever before in their histories. 

Great point!

[Gipper]

Lots of opinions here, liking the banter, but how this all plays out is anyone’s guess.

[Ugminer]

Heard last night on the news vigo county school board was gonna consolidate cple elementary schools. Could this possibly be a start for further considerations?

Edited December 16, 2020 by Ugminer

[DanteEstonia]

1 hour ago, Ugminer said:

Heard last night on the news vigo county school board was gonna consolidate cple elementary schools. Could this possibly be a start for further considerations?

There might be room for Grades 7&8 at THS and THN.

[wvigo13]

It was brought up on here recently, further up in the thread, about consolidation. I can tell you someone in the know has said TH is looking to consolidate all 3 high schools into one. They've been having funding issues which is why they closed a few schools a few years ago and are consolidating a few others after the school year. I was told it could be within the next 10 years. Plenty of land on the east side of TH. The old K-Mart building could be an interesting site. Right off 41, just about a mile or so south of I-70. 

[DanteEstonia]

49 minutes ago, wvigo13 said:

I can tell you someone in the know has said TH is looking to consolidate all 3 high schools into one.

Worst idea ever. Elkhart has large neighbors; Terre Haute does not. It would be more cost effective to close down middle schools.

[NLCTigerFan07]

On 12/7/2020 at 2:52 PM, ts32 said:

Interesting. The new Vigo County School Corporation Superintendent, Dr. Robert Haworth, just came from Elkhart...

On 12/7/2020 at 5:39 PM, DanteEstonia said:

... and this means what exactly?

I think it just means the school corporation has a superintendent in place that has recent knowledge and experience when it comes to consolidating two high schools into one, especially when you compare the size of the schools in question. Just interesting similiarities is what I took from @ts32 post.

 

[oldtimeqb]

On 12/30/2020 at 3:38 PM, wvigo13 said:

It was brought up on here recently, further up in the thread, about consolidation. I can tell you someone in the know has said TH is looking to consolidate all 3 high schools into one. They've been having funding issues which is why they closed a few schools a few years ago and are consolidating a few others after the school year. I was told it could be within the next 10 years. Plenty of land on the east side of TH. The old K-Mart building could be an interesting site. Right off 41, just about a mile or so south of I-70. 

So West Vigo, THS, and THN are the same school corporation?  If so, I was not aware of that. 

That would explain the THSV and THNV acronyms better I guess. 

[HoopsCoach]

42 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

So West Vigo, THS, and THN are the same school corporation?  If so, I was not aware of that. 

That would explain the THSV and THNV acronyms better I guess. 

Correct, those three high schools are all part of the same district - Vigo County School Corporation.

[DanteEstonia]

6 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I think it just means the school corporation has a superintendent in place that has recent knowledge and experience when it comes to consolidating two high schools into one, especially when you compare the size of the schools in question. Just interesting similiarities is what I took from @ts32 post.

 

-and doing so would be an absolutely awful decision for Terre Haute. Elkhart is next to Penn and Warsaw. Terre Haute has no other large school neighbors.

[NLCTigerFan07]

Just now, DanteEstonia said:

-and doing so would be an absolutely awful decision for Terre Haute. Elkhart is next to Penn and Warsaw. Terre Haute has no other large school neighbors.

That's fine. But that is not what I understood @ts32 to be saying. You asked what his post meant and I provided an answer. Doesn't mean he was advocating for or against consolidation of Terre Haute high schools. However, it is an interesting note to make considering the superintendents previous experience.

Unforutnately, either way I feel like it is a bad decision for Terre Hatue. Either spend more money when you could save it by consolidating OR put yourself on a huge island (especially in terms of athletics) by being a rather large school out on an island as you point out.

[Titan32]

On 12/13/2020 at 10:17 AM, DanteEstonia said:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/01623737019003205?journalCode=epaa

From the Abstract:

 

There is a cost-effectiveness point, however. 

I like this study.

[eschnur66]

16 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

-and doing so would be an absolutely awful decision for Terre Haute. Elkhart is next to Penn and Warsaw. Terre Haute has no other large school neighbors.

Serious question: Would it not be more appealing if Terre Haute only had one school to travel to, rather than two?  At this point, it seems as if they are two schools on an island that come as a package deal.  With consolidation, they would create a situation where the one single school, which would seemingly become extremely competitive almost instantly in every sport, becomes a much more logical addition to several conferences.  

I am not sure that a single Terre Haute high school would not have had a shot at getting into the SIAC to create a 12 team league.  One trip to Terre Haute every other year in all sports is much more logical than a trip in every sport, every year. 

[DanteEstonia]

41 minutes ago, eschnur66 said:

Would it not be more appealing if Terre Haute only had one school to travel to, rather than two?

Why would a school in Indianapolis travel to Terre Haute, if they have similar schools next door?

Why would Bedford, Bloomington, or Martinsville travel to Terre Haute, when they have smaller schools next door?

Why would Terre Haute's neighbors play them now that they are gigantic?

[DanteEstonia]

@eschnur66 There was apparently a feasibility study done on this-

By far the cheapest option is to just renovate. If Terre Haute has a declining population the most cost-effective thing they could do would be to renovate the three current high schools, and close down their feeder middle schools, similar to what EVSC did with North J/SHS. 

 

Source: https://terrehautenews.net/2020/02/17/the-case-for-a-unified-central-terre-haute-high-school/

Edited January 5, 2021 by DanteEstonia
clarification, and source citation

[eschnur66]

3 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

Why would a school in Indianapolis travel to Terre Haute, if they have similar schools next door?

Why would Bedford, Bloomington, or Martinsville travel to Terre Haute, when they have smaller schools next door?

Why would Terre Haute's neighbors play them now that they are gigantic?

I think that those are all valid questions, and they should all be posed alongside the one I asked.   

1 minute ago, DanteEstonia said:

@eschnur66 There was apparently a feasibility study done on this-

By far the cheapest option is to just renovate. If Terre Haute has a declining population the most cost-effective thing they could do would be to renovate the three current high schools, and close down their feeder middle schools, similar to what EVSC did with North J/SHS. 

 

Source: https://terrehautenews.net/2020/02/17/the-case-for-a-unified-central-terre-haute-high-school/

That is really interesting information.