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[scarab527]

Just now, Footballking16 said:

You don't think there's still bull in china shop situations in the Success Factor era?

I got some land to sell you....

Of course there is. Just said it's not perfect. But I'm guessing you don't remember how it was before the success factor was implemented. You said name one thing the IHSAA has done to promote competitive balance, and I did. Don't know why you're getting so salty about it lol. 

[Footballking16]

Just now, scarab527 said:

Of course there is. Just said it's not perfect. But I'm guessing you don't remember how it was before the success factor was implemented. You said name one thing the IHSAA has done to promote competitive balance, and I did. Don't know why you're getting so salty about it lol. 

Because the same culprits winning in the pre-success factor era are still winning in the current era albeit a class up.

I fail to see how an improvement in competitive balance has been achieved?

[scarab527]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Because the same culprits winning in the pre-success factor era are still winning in the current era albeit a class up.

I fail to see how an improvement in competitive balance has been achieved?

During the SF, has any team replicated the sustained dominance of LCC, Luers, Chatard, and Cathedral all had simultaneously in the immediate years prior to the SF's implementation? All those teams have had success, but not nearly the complete domination they had been having. Out of those teams, only Cathedral has moved into a higher class than they had been previously and won state. I think the proof is in the pudding. 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, scarab527 said:

During the SF, has any team replicated the sustained dominance of LCC, Luers, Chatard, and Cathedral all had simultaneously in the immediate years prior to the SF's implementation? All those teams have had success, but not nearly the complete domination they had been having. Out of those teams, only Cathedral has moved into a higher class than they had been previously and won state. I think the proof is in the pudding. 

The same 2-3 teams are winning every year. When one team wins they get bumped up a class. Team #2 then wins and bumps up a class only to have the original team come back and win...only to be bumped back up a second time. Rinse, wash, repeat. This isn't improving competitive balance. 

[scarab527]

14 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

The same 2-3 teams are winning every year. When one team wins they get bumped up a class. Team #2 then wins and bumps up a class only to have the original team come back and win...only to be bumped back up a second time. Rinse, wash, repeat. This isn't improving competitive balance. 

When has that happened? 

[Footballking16]

12 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

When has that happened? 

It's pretty much the de-facto 3A/4A cycle between Chatard/Memorial/Roncalli. 

The same teams are winning essentially every year, just replacing the winner from the years prior.

Rinse, wash, repeat. It's not improving competitive balance.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Footballking16

[DumfriesYMCA]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

It's pretty much the de-facto 3A/4A cycle between Chatard/Memorial/Roncalli. 

The same teams are winning essentially every year, just replacing the winner from the years prior.

Rinse, wash, repeat. It's not improving competitive balance.

Chatard hasn’t been able to do it at 4A yet though.  They keep coming back to 3A lol. 
 

you would think chatard would be locked into 4A…but in the 10 years of the success factor memorial and Brebeuf in the absence of them have managed to be Uber successful and now have pretty much permanently marked their spot in 4A….and chatard is back in 3A lol 

 

not that I’m complaining.  Gibson Southern fans still very much want to prove something to chatard and want that fight in November 

[scarab527]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

It's pretty much the de-facto 3A/4A cycle between Chatard/Memorial/Roncalli. 

The same teams are winning essentially every year, just replacing the winner from the years prior.

Rinse, wash, repeat. It's not improving competitive balance.

3A and 4A have had 7 different winners since the SF lol. I don't know how you can get that from the actual state championship results but sure. 

[crimsonace1]

3 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Chatard hasn’t been able to do it at 4A yet though.  They keep coming back to 3A lol. 
 

you would think chatard would be locked into 4A…but in the 10 years of the success factor memorial and Brebeuf in the absence of them have managed to be Uber successful and now have pretty much permanently marked their spot in 4A….and chatard is back in 3A lol 

 

not that I’m complaining.  Gibson Southern fans still very much want to prove something to chatard and want that fight in November 

With the SF only needing two points to stay up once you've been bumped, all Memorial needs to do is win two sectionals or a regional in the two-year cycle, which they've been pretty successful at doing. 

Brebeuf is 4A by enrollment. I don't think they've ever been 4A in football until now, but it's not a success factor bump. 

Chatard has only bumped up to 4A twice. In three years, they've lost to Roncalli in the sectional twice. They won the sectional their first year in 4A, but then lost to New Pal in the regional in the Dragons' first year (IMO, that game might be the biggest win in NP's history, because they finally broke through the regional after years of trying. That win completely changed the mindset and culture in the New Pal community). 

[Footballking16]

55 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

3A and 4A have had 7 different winners since the SF lol. I don't know how you can get that from the actual state championship results but sure. 

They’re all the same teams!!!!

With the exception of Tri-West 8 years ago and Gibson Southern this last year, it’s the same damn group of 4-5 teams shuffling titles and runner-ups between them. Dwenger, Chatard, Memorial, West Lafayette, Roncalli, Andrean, etc

All those programs have multiple appearances at LOS right up into the implementation of the Success Factor and current era. The Success Factor does nothing but change the fortunes of 2-3 programs for a 2 year cycle. Then it’s rinse, wash, repeat.

Competitive balance isn’t being achieved. Like at all.

You have 3 multi-millionaires at an auction bidding on priceless art in room of a hundred people common folk. One of them gets up to take a 15 minute bathroom break. 15 minutes the third guy comes back in the room. None of the common folk bought anything.

Thats the Success Factor. It doesn’t change a damn thing.

[scarab527]

11 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

They’re all the same teams!!!!

With the exception of Tri-West 8 years ago and Gibson Southern this last year, it’s the same damn group of 4-5 teams shuffling titles and runner-ups between them. Dwenger, Chatard, Memorial, West Lafayette, Roncalli, Andrean, etc

All those programs have multiple appearances at LOS right up into the implementation of the Success Factor and current era. The Success Factor does nothing but change the fortunes of 2-3 programs for a 2 year cycle. Then it’s rinse, wash, repeat.

Competitive balance isn’t being achieved. Like at all.

You have 3 multi-millionaires at an auction bidding on priceless art in room of a hundred people common folk. One of them gets up to take a 15 minute bathroom break. 15 minutes the third guy comes back in the room. None of the common folk bought anything.

Thats the Success Factor. It doesn’t change a damn thing.

You went from the same 2-3 teams winning every year to the same 4-5 teams winning every year in a couple posts. Keep backtracking. 

[Footballking16]

4 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

You went from the same 2-3 teams winning every year to the same 4-5 teams winning every year in a couple posts. Keep backtracking. 

You’ve yet to make an argument how the same handful of teams winning the state title year after year has improved competitive balance?

You outed yourself when you said the Success Factor doesn’t apply to 99% of the IHSAA member schools. When an implementation of a new rule doesn’t affect 99% of the target audience…well I would hope you get the picture.

[crimsonace1]

2 hours ago, scarab527 said:

During the SF, has any team replicated the sustained dominance of LCC, Luers, Chatard, and Cathedral all had simultaneously in the immediate years prior to the SF's implementation? All those teams have had success, but not nearly the complete domination they had been having. Out of those teams, only Cathedral has moved into a higher class than they had been previously and won state. I think the proof is in the pudding. 

Cathedral was likely the main target of the Success Factor and will be used as proof its implementation has been successful (there are a few others - Muncie Burris volleyball & Heritage Christian girls hoops, but they've regressed to the mean since they lost their coaches with the, um, "good club sports connections"). While the LCC/Luers/Chatard dominance of their respective classes had a lot to do with it, Cathedral was a top-5 program bulldozing its way through 4A every year. Every time they've tweaked the SF, they've done it to prevent Cathedral from dropping back to 4A. 

[Footballking16]

Just now, crimsonace1 said:

Cathedral was likely the main target of the Success Factor and will be used as proof its implementation has been successful (there are a few others - Muncie Burris volleyball & Heritage Christian girls hoops, but they've regressed to the mean since they lost their coaches with the, um, "good club sports connections"). While the LCC/Luers/Chatard dominance of their respective classes had a lot to do with it, Cathedral was a top-5 program bulldozing its way through 4A every year. Every time they've tweaked the SF, they've done it to prevent Cathedral from dropping back to 4A. 

You’re not wrong but I would love for @scarab527to make a rational argument as to how a rule that was targeted for 3 specific programs (the ones you mentioned) out of the 350+ schools between 20 or so IHSAA offered sports improves competitive balance? 
 

And it’s not like it has prevented those schools from continually winning state titles in additional classes. Cathedral will never be in 4A again so if that was the goal of the Success Factor I guess it worked, but 4A is still going to be dominated by primarily 3-4 teams year after year depending on who is bumped up. Cathedral no longer being in 4A is irrelevant to all but 61 or 62 4A teams. 

[scarab527]

4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You’re not wrong but I would love for @scarab527to make a rational argument as to how a rule that was targeted for 3 specific programs (the ones you mentioned) out of the 350+ schools between 20 or so IHSAA offered sports improves competitive balance? 
 

And it’s not like it has prevented those schools from continually winning state titles in additional classes. Cathedral will never be in 4A again so if that was the goal of the Success Factor I guess it worked, but 4A is still going to be dominated by primarily 3-4 teams year after year depending on who is bumped up. Cathedral no longer being in 4A is irrelevant to all but 61 or 62 4A teams. 

I showed you all the evidence you need. I’ve seen you refuse to accept losing an argument on other threads. I hope you overcome your desperate need to be right in the face of all information provided. 

[Footballking16]

12 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

I showed you all the evidence you need. I’ve seen you refuse to accept losing an argument on other threads. I hope you overcome your desperate need to be right in the face of all information provided. 

You’ve yet to provide a single ounce of articulate evidence that shows an implementation of a rule that leaves 99% of the status quo unchanged as successful.

I’ll call you wrong starting in a different language going forward and I’d still be right.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Footballking16

[scarab527]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

You’ve yet to provide a single ounce of articulate evidence that shows an implementation of a rule that leaves 99% of the status quo unchanged as successful.

I’ll call you wrong starting in a different language going forward and I’d still be right.

Look through the thread again, I refuted your points as you made them, had you backtracking and everything. Judging by your debate skills I’d be shocked if you even have a complete grasp on the English language, let alone another…

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Look through the thread again, I refuted your points as you made them, had you backtracking and everything. Judging by your debate skills I’d be shocked if you even have a complete grasp on the English language, let alone another…

You’ve yet to provide a single ounce of articulate evidence that shows an implementation of a rule that leaves 99% of the status quo unchanged as successful.

[scarab527]

27 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You’ve yet to provide a single ounce of articulate evidence that shows an implementation of a rule that leaves 99% of the status quo unchanged as successful.

Read the thread again. You’ve been making claims that the same 2-3 teams have kept winning every year. I showed you that wasn’t the case. Then you said the same 4-5 teams. Even though 3A/4A have each been won by 7 different teams in 9 years. 3A had 11 different teams appear in a title game and 4A had 14. Previous 9 years before SF 3A had 5 different winners (4 for Chatard) and 10 different teams appearing. 4A had 4 different winners (5 for Cathedral, 2 for Reitz) and 9 different teams appearing. That’s pretty straightforward evidence that it’s balanced things out a bit. No one ever said it was going to balance every team in the state out. That would impossible. It probably needs tweaking. But in the aggregate it’s accomplishing what it set out to do, which was competitive balance. I know you’re a cathedral guy, but winning 4A every year until eternity would’ve gotten old at some point. 

[Footballking16]

1 hour ago, scarab527 said:

Read the thread again. You’ve been making claims that the same 2-3 teams have kept winning every year. I showed you that wasn’t the case. Then you said the same 4-5 teams. Even though 3A/4A have each been won by 7 different teams in 9 years. 3A had 11 different teams appear in a title game and 4A had 14. Previous 9 years before SF 3A had 5 different winners (4 for Chatard) and 10 different teams appearing. 4A had 4 different winners (5 for Cathedral, 2 for Reitz) and 9 different teams appearing. That’s pretty straightforward evidence that it’s balanced things out a bit. No one ever said it was going to balance every team in the state out. That would impossible. It probably needs tweaking. But in the aggregate it’s accomplishing what it set out to do, which was competitive balance. I know you’re a cathedral guy, but winning 4A every year until eternity would’ve gotten old at some point. 

Of the 7 teams to win 3A/4A, how many weren’t perennial winners prior to the SF? Roncalli/Dwenger winning 4A (because Cathedral is in 5A) and Memorial/West Lafayette winning 3A (because Chatard is in 4A) doesn’t enhance competitive balance you knob. 
 

Competitive balance doesn’t exist in high school football, as it has been repeatedly stated. There are haves and have-nots. Haves make up 10-15% of each class, yet win nearly 100% of the titles. Removing Cathedral from the 4A equation does nothing to dismiss the fact there are still 60 teams who have virtually a zero shot of winning a title.

Again, bring me some kind of concrete evidence that the Success Factor has improved competitive balance. I’m still waiting.

[DumfriesYMCA]

10 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Of the 7 teams to win 3A/4A, how many weren’t perennial winners prior to the SF? Roncalli/Dwenger winning 4A (because Cathedral is in 5A) and Memorial/West Lafayette winning 3A (because Chatard is in 4A) doesn’t enhance competitive balance you knob. 
 

Competitive balance doesn’t exist in high school football, as it has been repeatedly stated. There are haves and have-nots. Haves make up 10-15% of each class, yet win nearly 100% of the titles. Removing Cathedral from the 4A equation does nothing to dismiss the fact there are still 60 teams who have virtually a zero shot of winning a title.

Again, bring me some kind of concrete evidence that the Success Factor has improved competitive balance. I’m still waiting.

Before the memorial fans jump all over you….in 2018? They absolutely beat the brakes off of Chatard in the 3A semi state. (IIRC) Might have been the worst loss Chatard has ever had.  It was a full running clock on Chatard which is pretty much unheard of

Edited July 23, 2022 by DumfriesYMCA

[scarab527]

14 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Of the 7 teams to win 3A/4A, how many weren’t perennial winners prior to the SF? Roncalli/Dwenger winning 4A (because Cathedral is in 5A) and Memorial/West Lafayette winning 3A (because Chatard is in 4A) doesn’t enhance competitive balance you knob. 
 

Competitive balance doesn’t exist in high school football, as it has been repeatedly stated. There are haves and have-nots. Haves make up 10-15% of each class, yet win nearly 100% of the titles. Removing Cathedral from the 4A equation does nothing to dismiss the fact there are still 60 teams who have virtually a zero shot of winning a title.

Again, bring me some kind of concrete evidence that the Success Factor has improved competitive balance. I’m still waiting.

You should look that up yourself. I’ve provided plenty of evidence. You’ve been talking out of your behind and backtracking, you knob. 

[tango]

16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

 Memorial/West Lafayette winning 3A (because Chatard is in 4A)

Chatard was in 3A in 2017 & 2018. We like to think they won 3A in 2019 because we were in 4A.. 
Just kidding. I have great respect for BC.

[Muda69]

5 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Then the IHSAA has done the absolute worst job imaginable in creating "fair and competitive balance" because it has never existed in high school sports nor will it ever. The IHSAA doesn't exists nor strive for all 360 something member schools to be on equal footing because it is literally an impossible feat.

Show me one single thing the IHSAA has done or implemented that has improved fair and competitive balance?

"Establishes standards for competition" doesn't mean what you think it means, as I previously stated. I already told you what it means and how it relates to their mission. 

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

[Footballking16]

5 minutes ago, tango said:

Chatard was in 3A in 2017 & 2018. We like to think they won 3A in 2019 because we were in 4A.. 
Just kidding. I have great respect for BC.

All kidding aside, it furthers my point. It’s a revolving door. One team benefits when the other is up and vice versa. There’s a handful of teams each year who benefit from the Success Factor. It doesn’t move the needle in terms of achieving competitive balance in the least. That still seems to be falling of deaf ears.

5 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

Still failing to see where it says “promotes fair and competitive balance”…help me out.