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6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

He's not wrong in the least. The IHSAA doesn't exist to hand out trophies to everyone. Akin to the NCAA, the IHSAA exists to regulate the rules they set forth for each existing member. 

Competitive balance <> "hand out trophies to everyone".  Please stop with that tired old canard.

 

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12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Competitive balance <> "hand out trophies to everyone".  Please stop with that tired old canard.

 

Straight from the horses mouth...Show me where it says anything about promoting fair and competitive balance? I'll hang up and listen.

https://www.ihsaa.org/About-IHSAA/Current-Information/Purpose

PURPOSE OF THE INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION

Organized in 1903, the Indiana High School Athletic Association is a voluntary, not-for-profit organization that is self-supporting without the use of tax monies.

Any high school in the state, or any junior high school offering ninth grade, whether public, private, parochial, or institutional, if accredited by the Indiana Department of Education, may become a member of the Association by making a formal application that is authorized by its board of education and by subscribing to the rules and By-Laws of the Association. Membership, once attained, is renewable annually provided requirements are met. The purpose of the IHSAA is to encourage and direct wholesome amateur athletics in the high schools of Indiana. In keeping with this mission, the Association:

• Regulates, supervises and administers interschool athletic activities among its member high schools as an integral part of the secondary education program. A tournament series is sanctioned in 22 sports, 10 for girls, 10 for boys and two co-ed (unified flag football and unified track and field). This school year, more than 160,000 students will compete in IHSAA-sanctioned tournaments.
• Cooperates with all agencies vitally concerned with the health and educational welfare of secondary school students.
• Determines qualifications of individual contestants, coaches and officials.
• Provides written communications to facilitate athletic relations among member schools.
• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

The IHSAA is governed by its legislative body, the Board of Directors. Composed of 19 members who are elected by member school principals from three IHSAA legislative districts, the directors serve staggered three-year terms. The Board of Directors meets annually with the responsibility of establishing the Association’s rules and regulations.

The same 19 members of the Board also comprise the IHSAA Executive Committee. The Committee meets monthly and is responsible for organizing and directing state tournaments and meets, interpreting the Association's By-Laws, determining penalties for rules violations, establishing the Association's state office and employing a commissioner and staff to administer the daily functions of the Association.

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29 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Straight from the horses mouth...Show me where it says anything about promoting fair and competitive balance? I'll hang up and listen.

 

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

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10 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

Lol.

That doesn't mean what you think it means. It means the IHSAA has the power to decide who plays who and when/where ie the "300 mile rule" which they just amended because you know, they have the power too. 

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2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Lol.

That doesn't mean what you think it means. It means the IHSAA has the power to decide who plays who and when/where ie the "300 mile rule" which they just amended because you know, they have the power too. 

Thank you, Mr. IHSAA Board Member.

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

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1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

Not jumping in this argument but taking a tangent off of it.

 

i fail to see how a school would be exploited….and currently feel that students being forced to stay at a school by the ihsaa is schools exploiting the students. 
E01C4CA3-C944-454A-B3F0-12CD1951D988.thumb.jpeg.f22c78c79adf2b297237fb5c22f1f16f.jpeg

The only ones being treated unfairly for benefit/benefitting from restricting the free will of a student is the student. 
 

in no way is a school being exploited if a student of theirs chooses to attend another school on their own free will for any reasons they deem worthy. 
 

that’s my 2¢ Lol

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1 minute ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Not jumping in this argument but taking a tangent off of it.

 

i fail to see how a school would be exploited….and currently feel that students being forced to stay at a school by the ihsaa is schools exploiting the students. 
E01C4CA3-C944-454A-B3F0-12CD1951D988.thumb.jpeg.f22c78c79adf2b297237fb5c22f1f16f.jpeg

The only ones being treated unfairly for benefit/benefitting from restricting the free will of a student is the student. 
 

in no way is a school being exploited if a student of theirs chooses to attend another school on their own free will for any reasons they deem worthy. 
 

that’s my 2¢ Lol

The IHSAA can't restrict a student from transferring from school A to school B.

The IHSAA however can restrict varsity eligibility from a student transferring from school A to school B.

Big difference.

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Thank you, Mr. IHSAA Board Member.

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

Please interpret how that relates to promoting fair and competitive balance? 

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

Please interpret how that relates to promoting fair and competitive balance? 

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

Standards of competition promote fair and competitive balance.  Really, this statement by the IHSAA is so vague, it is like the Commerce Clause in the U.S. Constitution, which the federal government abuses to force all kind of regulations upon the populace and business.

 

 

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Just now, Muda69 said:

• Establishes standards for eligibility, competition and sportsmanship while providing protection against exploitation of schools or students.

Standards of competition promote fair and competitive balance.  Really, this statement by the IHSAA is so vague, it is like the Commerce Clause in the U.S. Constitution, which the federal government abuses to force all kind of regulations upon the populace and business.

 

 

Then the IHSAA has done the absolute worst job imaginable in creating "fair and competitive balance" because it has never existed in high school sports nor will it ever. The IHSAA doesn't exists nor strive for all 360 something member schools to be on equal footing because it is literally an impossible feat.

Show me one single thing the IHSAA has done or implemented that has improved fair and competitive balance?

"Establishes standards for competition" doesn't mean what you think it means, as I previously stated. I already told you what it means and how it relates to their mission. 

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3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Then the IHSAA has done the absolute worst job imaginable in creating "fair and competitive balance" because it has never existed in high school sports nor will it ever. The IHSAA doesn't exists nor strive for all 360 something member schools to be on equal footing because it is literally an impossible feat.

Show me one single thing the IHSAA has done or implemented that has improved fair and competitive balance?

"Establishes standards for competition" doesn't mean what you think it means, as I previously stated. I already told you what it means and how it relates to their mission. 

The success factor?

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8 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

The success factor?

How does bumping a single team (or two) every two years improve competitive balance? I will assure you moving Cathedral from 4A to 5A didn't magically make Frankfort or Gary West a better football team. The Success Factor benefits a handful of teams every 2 years.

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

How does bumping a single team (or two) every two years improve competitive balance? I will assure you moving Cathedral from 4A to 5A didn't magically make Frankfort or Gary West a better football team. The Success Factor benefits a handful of teams every 2 years.

Improving competitive balance doesn't mean making every program equal, thought that was obvious. 

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28 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

The IHSAA can't restrict a student from transferring from school A to school B.

The IHSAA however can restrict varsity eligibility from a student transferring from school A to school B.

Big difference.

Please interpret how that relates to promoting fair and competitive balance? 

To further the initial point, the IHSAA does not rule on transfers with an eye toward "competitive balance." They're not going, "you know, if this kid transfers, it's going to really hurt this school's team that's struggling and make this other team much better and we can't have that." They're going to rule based on the factors of each case. The relative strength of the programs and what's "best for Indiana high school football" is not among the criteria.  

Basically, the transfer rules are pretty simple. 

If the two ADs/principals sign off on it, it's good. 

If someone doesn't sign off on it, the questions are - was the transfer was for athletic reasons, it's likely going to be reviewed and limited eligibility granted. 

Generally, the "athletic reasons" involve going to a school where you have a past link (translation: if you're transferring to be with your former AAU basketball or travel baseball coach) and/or your move did not involve a change of address, then some red flags get raised. Sometimes, the move was without a change of address and *appeared* to be an athletic move even though it was for other reasons (the Jayden Brewer case when he transferred from Avon to Ben Davis - the latter being the school district he lived in, for family reasons - being the most obvious, but we broadcast Hamilton Heights games a few years ago where they had a WR - who ended up going to Oregon - transfer from Noblesville, we were told because of the FFA program, who had limited eligibility for one year and couldn't play until the sectional).

There was another case where a kid transferred from a p/p to his local public school. Went to the Case Review Panel and they upheld the IHSAA's limited eligibility ruling as the dad basically spent the entire hearing talking about how bad the previous school's coach was. It couldn't have been a more blatantly obvious athletic transfer. 

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4 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Improving competitive balance doesn't mean making every program equal, thought that was obvious. 

I fail to see how bumping 3-5 teams up a class every 2 years (out of 350+ member schools) improves competitive balance?

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4 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

And to further the initial argument, the IHSAA does not rule on transfers with an eye toward "competitive balance." They're not going, "you know, if this kid transfers, it's going to really hurt this school's team that's struggling and make this other team much better and we can't have that." 

Basically, the transfer rules are pretty simple. 

If the two ADs/principals sign off on it, it's good. 

If someone doesn't sign off on it, the questions are - was the transfer was for athletic reasons, it's likely going to be reviewed and limited eligibility granted. 

Generally, the "athletic reasons" involve going to a school where you have a past link (translation: if you're transferring to be with your former AAU basketball or travel baseball coach) and/or your move did not involve a change of address, then some red flags get raised. Sometimes, the move was without a change of address and *appeared* to be an athletic move even though it was for other reasons (the Jayden Brewer case being the most obvious, but we broadcast Hamilton Heights games a few years ago where they had a WR - who ended up going to Oregon - transfer from Noblesville, we were told because of the FFA program, who had limited eligibility for one year and couldn't play until the sectional).

Agreed.

The IHSAA has to keep a precedent set. If the IHSAA starts granting immediately eligibility for non move-ins/address changes to any and all students, it's going to end up being the wild west. 

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

I fail to see how bumping 3-5 teams up a class every 2 years (out of 350+ member schools) improves competitive balance?

Most of the teams in that 350+ are irrelevant. You only have to move around a few to see a noticeable difference. SF isn't perfect but I think it has at least partially accomplished its goal (which I would say is competitive balance) and I believe most coaches around the state would agree. 

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4 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

To further the initial point, the IHSAA does not rule on transfers with an eye toward "competitive balance." They're not going, "you know, if this kid transfers, it's going to really hurt this school's team that's struggling and make this other team much better and we can't have that." They're going to rule based on the factors of each case. The relative strength of the programs and what's "best for Indiana high school football" is not among the criteria.  

Basically, the transfer rules are pretty simple. 

If the two ADs/principals sign off on it, it's good. 

If someone doesn't sign off on it, the questions are - was the transfer was for athletic reasons, it's likely going to be reviewed and limited eligibility granted. 

 

I'm aware of a case where both schools said it was not athletically motivated, yet public school did not sign the waiver. IHSAA was very interested in the relative success of the two schools when it came to the IHSAA appeal. The Commish made a point of making sure the review committee knew which program was enjoying sustained success and which program was on the decline.  Down here, it very much depends on where the student wants to transfer. 

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Just now, scarab527 said:

Most of the teams in that 350+ are irrelevant. You only have to move around a few to see a noticeable difference. SF isn't perfect but I think it has at least partially accomplished its goal (which I would say is competitive balance) and I believe most coaches around the state would agree. 

Lol. How does the Success Factor improve competitive balance when 99% of the schools are irrelevant?

The Success Factor benefits all of 3-4 teams every two years in a given class. 

Given that competitive balance has never existed in high school sports (nor will it), I fail to see how the success factor has truly moved the needle? Before the success factor was implemented, realistically there was 5-6 teams a class that had a realistic shot of winning a state title. The same logic applies today with the Success Factor.

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Just now, Footballking16 said:

Lol. How does the Success Factor improve competitive balance when 99% of the schools are irrelevant?

The Success Factor benefits all of 3-4 teams every two years in a given class. 

Given that competitive balance has never existed in high school sports (nor will it), I fail to see how the success factor has truly moved the needle? Before the success factor was implemented, realistically there was 5-6 teams a class that had a realistic shot of winning a state title. The same logic applies today with the Success Factor.

You just answered your own question. I still think you don't understand what competitive balance means. There's always gonna be just a handful of teams that can realistically win a state title. The SF is to prevent bull in a china shop situations where one team is clearly better than all the rest in its class. That makes things pretty boring. 5A will be a lot more interesting this year due to the success factor, for example. Since it's implementation, it's made many classes in many years more interesting than they otherwise would've been. 

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1 minute ago, scarab527 said:

You just answered your own question. I still think you don't understand what competitive balance means. There's always gonna be just a handful of teams that can realistically win a state title. The SF is to prevent bull in a china shop situations where one team is clearly better than all the rest in its class. That makes things pretty boring. 5A will be a lot more interesting this year due to the success factor, for example. Since it's implementation, it's made many classes in many years more interesting than they otherwise would've been. 

You don't think there's still bull in china shop situations in the Success Factor era?

I got some land to sell you....

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