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Coach Nowlin

6th Quarter APPROVED: Mercy Rule or No Mercy Rule

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Scenario:   Sophomore RB:   Plays 10 reps on Friday night,  5 in the the 3rd quarter, 5 and in the 4th quarter::  That is 2 Varsity Quarters. 

Sophomore RB is the JV RB, Monday or Saturday JV game::   He plays all 4 quarters:   That would have been illegal as he has now played 6 quarters, so the game he played the extra quarter was JV game and that game if called out on would be the game that the school would have to forfeit 

In the current stated rule:  Same scenario:   This Sophomore RB would not be able to play 4 quarters of JV ball

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5 hours ago, Miner_Pride said:

Definitely what I was thinking too.... So many times in the past, and a handful last year.. I'd hear the opposing fans get bent when the starters would still be out in the middle of the 3rd ...even though there would be subs at positions, as well as players in different positions... we would always wait til that 3rd quarter ended to bring in the JV.  So I think now we will see more of the JV gets get time with the varsity on the field in those situations.  I know the coaches want to get the varsity work in game situations...especially early in the season... and honestly.. we've not been in those blowout situations in the first 5 weeks these last 2 years....   I like the change to 6 a lot.  But I also think that once the young kids get on the field..if we are up by 35 and it's a running clock... they'll only get a couple possessions to do anything LOL.. that clock moves fast!   I still think that if the opponent keeps his starters out there and we throw in the young kids... they should do the same..   but some don't. 

That goes to show you:  "Great minds, think alike".  LOL  I feel the same about the JV kids against varsity.  I feel both teams should change out.  I would hate to see a younger, smaller kid get blasted by someone 50 pounds bigger and a couple years older.  Maybe not so much age, but size for sure.   And yes, I've noticed that some keep their varsity in against the JV.  I've seen them score on the JV and they act like they've won the game.  Bad sportsmanship (IMO).  And I've also noticed we picked up 4A Boonville on the schedule this year.  Man, Linton's SOS is really getting tough!  Not many of the old 1A teams left now, but I really love it!

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4 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

In the current stated rule:  Same scenario:   This Sophomore RB would not be able to play 4 quarters of JV ball

 The current stated rule is the 6 quarter model now, right?

Based of your example, JV Joe participated in 2 Varsity (no more than) and 4 Sub Varsity (no more than). Thus is within the rules. If he is not then I really don't know. 

JV Joe is a helluva RB btw, kids gonna be All State one day. 

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3 hours ago, Zonefball said:

 The current stated rule is the 6 quarter model now, right?

Based of your example, JV Joe participated in 2 Varsity (no more than) and 4 Sub Varsity (no more than). Thus is within the rules. If he is not then I really don't know. 

JV Joe is a helluva RB btw, kids gonna be All State one day. 

I always felt the 5 quarter rule needed a little leeway anyway. Most of the time at a smaller school JV Joe is the backup RB and backup LB. 2nd Quarter of the varsity game, he plays 3 downs at LB because the starter’s helmet strap broke (Those SpeedFlex snaps can be a bear.) Then he plays the last offensive series at RB to help run out the clock.

I always felt playing him only 3 quarters in JV was unnecessarily punitive and not really in the spirit of the rule. The new rule makes that scenario OK

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On 5/3/2019 at 11:48 AM, Coach Nowlin said:

violation occured during the sub varsity game, how could that cost the forfeiture of the Varsity contest ?   That makes NO sense.   the game where the player played more than the allotted number of quarters would be the game that if called out on by the other team or self reported would be the game that would be deemed a forfeit for the infraction made by the team.  

Ok, so no penalty to Varsity games is what you are saying, so why does IHSAA have a rule at all?  Last I knew, Mighty of Winamac was the only one that watched JV and freshman team records.

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16 minutes ago, Coach-Ref_Kiser said:

Ok, so no penalty to Varsity games is what you are saying, so why does IHSAA have a rule at all?  Last I knew, Mighty of Winamac was the only one that watched JV and freshman team records.

It seems like the IHSAA should be consistent across all sports.  Last season in baseball a pitcher pitched more than his allotted pitches in a day (Regional).  His team won, then the IHSAA suspended the pitcher for the next game, which his team lost.  In this circumstance, I do not think the pitcher knew how many pitches he threw, but his coach should have.  The IHSAA chose to suspend the player not the coach, setting the precedence.  Obviously, there was good documentation with the pitch count and this could be harder to do in football especially if players wear different numbers.

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41 minutes ago, Coach_K said:

It seems like the IHSAA should be consistent across all sports.  Last season in baseball a pitcher pitched more than his allotted pitches in a day (Regional).  His team won, then the IHSAA suspended the pitcher for the next game, which his team lost.  In this circumstance, I do not think the pitcher knew how many pitches he threw, but his coach should have.  The IHSAA chose to suspend the player not the coach, setting the precedence.  Obviously, there was good documentation with the pitch count and this could be harder to do in football especially if players wear different numbers.

Was he suspended or forced to sit for his mandated days of rest?

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1 hour ago, SoIndRef said:

Was he suspended or forced to sit for his mandated days of rest?

Suspended... I think it was Indianapolis Scecina last year baseball semi-state.  I'm sure you can look it up.

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7 hours ago, Coach_K said:

It seems like the IHSAA should be consistent across all sports.  Last season in baseball a pitcher pitched more than his allotted pitches in a day (Regional).  His team won, then the IHSAA suspended the pitcher for the next game, which his team lost.  In this circumstance, I do not think the pitcher knew how many pitches he threw, but his coach should have.  The IHSAA chose to suspend the player not the coach, setting the precedence.  Obviously, there was good documentation with the pitch count and this could be harder to do in football especially if players wear different numbers.

Don't know what the baseball rulebook says but it is very clear in football that it would be the jv game.  Virtually impossible to ever lose the varsity football contest due to a player playing too many quarters.  Seems like you should lose the game that the violation occurred, but that may be a bit punitive if it was only a few pitches.  Brings to mind the George Brett illegal pine tar game.

Quarters Q. 54-2 When a player participates in more than the allowed number of football quarters on successive days or during a week, what action is required?

A. A violation of the maximum contest rule requires that the School to forfeit the game in which the player exceeded the limit, charge the player with each quarter of participation, and send a written report to the Commissione

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16 hours ago, Lemmy said:

Don't know what the baseball rulebook says but it is very clear in football that it would be the jv game.  Virtually impossible to ever lose the varsity football contest due to a player playing too many quarters.  Seems like you should lose the game that the violation occurred, but that may be a bit punitive if it was only a few pitches.  Brings to mind the George Brett illegal pine tar game.

Quarters Q. 54-2 When a player participates in more than the allowed number of football quarters on successive days or during a week, what action is required?

A. A violation of the maximum contest rule requires that the School to forfeit the game in which the player exceeded the limit, charge the player with each quarter of participation, and send a written report to the Commissione

So if I am reading this correctly... If a player participates in 3 varsity quarters and 3 sub varsity quarters based on these old rules

image.png.a6dddc2d507001e1e5781a7ff2cf7b92.png

Then he could only play in 2 varsity quarters the following week possibly causing his team to forfeit?  Because you have to charge him with each quarter of participation.  This is all so damn confusing and hopefully doesn't have to be used but just in case.

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2 hours ago, Coach_K said:

So if I am reading this correctly... If a player participates in 3 varsity quarters and 3 sub varsity quarters based on these old rules

image.png.a6dddc2d507001e1e5781a7ff2cf7b92.png

Then he could only play in 2 varsity quarters the following week possibly causing his team to forfeit?  Because you have to charge him with each quarter of participation.  This is all so damn confusing and hopefully doesn't have to be used but just in case.

The week starts on Friday so a player will always be at zero qtrs on Friday, therefore unless a varsity game were to occur before Friday(don't think this is even allowed) a team would never have to forfeit the varsity contest due to too many qtrs. by a player. 

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1 hour ago, Lemmy said:

The week starts on Friday so a player will always be at zero qtrs on Friday, therefore unless a varsity game were to occur before Friday(don't think this is even allowed) a team would never have to forfeit the varsity contest due to too many qtrs. by a player. 

If you exceed quarters in the previous week, you are suppose to charge the player quarters.  Does that just mean season quarters or week quarters?  Because if it were week quarters, would those roll over to the next week?

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Posted (edited)

Not to belittle the topic, but is JV forfeiture really a punishment for playing to many quarters? At the end of the day not to many people are going to care if they have to forfeit a JV or freshman game if they feel they can give their kids some extra playing opportunities.

How are teams even kept accountable for this?

Edited by FarmerFran

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accountability lies within the coaching and admin community

If I knew for a fact that a kid I was coaching against had too many quarters my options are:  

1) contact my AD with proof via film from Friday night games with plays played and which quarter and film of JV game likewise:   AD would then choose to decide to contact the opponent school and IHSAA to file a claim, if founded, IHSAA would on the next executive board minutes list the infraction and penalty of forfeiture, followed by a strict warning to the HC of the infraction team

2)  Do nothing ,  Not my monkey, not my circus (this is the route I take) 


I personally am the one who is in charge of this for my team/school.   I will not "cheat" quarters for 1 simple fact,  if that player gets significantly injured in a quarter that I knowingly and willfully played him in, then I would be held liable.   Thanks, but no Thanks on that one, I will just map out the quarters each week and stick to that plan, if we end up having to cancel a Freshman game because we run out of players, so be it, but in our area, Freshman teams seem to be a luxury these days.  

 

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Is there a day coming when helmets will contain a chip that compiles a play count instead of just counting quarters?  I think it's fair to say that some 1A and 2A players play more downs on a Friday night than some 5A and 6A players might play in all 6 quarters of eligibility.  If player safety is really the concern, a play count (like a pitch count in baseball) would be a much more effective tool in controlling the amount of contact a player is exposed to in game situations.

Of course it's ridiculous to think a coaching staff could manually count plays for every player.  And it's certainly cost prohibitive to think about using electronics to do the task at this point.  But it might not be that far off.  And it would definitely be a better method for helping with player safety than just limiting quarters.

I know the technology also exists to measure the impact of helmet contact.  I believe that if a player using the technology has a head impact over a certain level, it signals a coach who can immediately remove the player for an evaluation.  There are things out there to aid in player safety.  It's probably just a matter of time until it's mandated.

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17 hours ago, FarmerFran said:

Not to belittle the topic, but is JV forfeiture really a punishment for playing to many quarters? At the end of the day not to many people are going to care if they have to forfeit a JV or freshman game if they feel they can give their kids some extra playing opportunities.

How are teams even kept accountable for this?

Don't forget the last bit of the punishment above "send a written report to the Commissioner"  I have to believe punishment becomes a lot more punitive if it happens more than once.

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23 hours ago, FinePrint said:

Is there a day coming when helmets will contain a chip that compiles a play count instead of just counting quarters?  I think it's fair to say that some 1A and 2A players play more downs on a Friday night than some 5A and 6A players might play in all 6 quarters of eligibility.  If player safety is really the concern, a play count (like a pitch count in baseball) would be a much more effective tool in controlling the amount of contact a player is exposed to in game situations.

Of course it's ridiculous to think a coaching staff could manually count plays for every player.  And it's certainly cost prohibitive to think about using electronics to do the task at this point.  But it might not be that far off.  And it would definitely be a better method for helping with player safety than just limiting quarters.

I know the technology also exists to measure the impact of helmet contact.  I believe that if a player using the technology has a head impact over a certain level, it signals a coach who can immediately remove the player for an evaluation.  There are things out there to aid in player safety.  It's probably just a matter of time until it's mandated.

I've always understood the reason for the rule was to prevent a coach from stacking his JV game with varsity players or limiting participation by the non-varsity players by letting the varsity play their quarters. That's why someone who plays 3 or 4 quarters in a varsity game can only play 4 total quarters

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