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swordfish

School Shootings

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18 minutes ago, swordfish said:

Your point has validity......until you notice the (s) plurals that were placed everywhere in my post......and the "group" reference may have been aimed only at the 16 yo.......

I have seen plenty of articles about the 18 year old. Not sure why you think he is being ignored.....

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22 hours ago, swordfish said:

Maybe this will shed some light as to why the MSM is so silent about the shooters......This is from a UK paper - Google "Colorado school shooter father illegal alien"  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7012485/Father-Colorado-school-shooter-Alec-McKinney-serial-felon-illegal-immigrant.html?fbclid=IwAR2OnCmvKI9o0UFocR0dq3bv7upXv3TFd5s12pYT0BBPXwNwC-Ha4fSaOiA

This group of kid shooters really sound troubled.  So it couldn't have been their fault.  I mean really these kids are not the "prototype" shooter the MSM likes to cover.

 

I'm not seeing silence ...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspected-colorado-stem-shooter-was-bully-made-jokes-about-school-n1004181

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2019/05/10/colorado-school-shooting-updates-unanswered-questions/1157356001/

http://time.com/5585312/school-shooting-colorado-stem/

https://nypost.com/2019/05/10/colorado-school-shooting-suspect-cracked-jokes-about-killing-classmates/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/colorado-stem-school-highlands-ranch-shooting-suspects-devon-erickson-female-juvenile-law-enforcements-radar/

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/7/18536054/colorado-shooting-stem-school-highlands-ranch-denver

https://kdvr.com/2019/05/10/investigation-into-school-shooting-is-intense-and-time-intensive/

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/07/721200551/multiple-people-injured-in-colorado-school-shooting

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a27404389/colorado-stem-school-shooting-8-year-old/

 

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18 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

In one of the articles linked, at least one of the shooters was using drugs, "legal and illegal" and had been in therapy. 

As I have stated before no one wants to look at the white elephant in the room, there is a recurring theme in "most" of these shootings and everyone refuses to see it.

What are the "these shootings" you are specifically talking about. School shootings? Mass shootings? Shootings where the shooters were kids? 

The only "theme" I see is people with grudges against the world, based on religion, politics, bullying, can't get a date, can't keep a job, mommy didn't love me, didn't get a pony, etc., etc., etc., took advantage of easy access to guns to kill or maim some people. 

Ultimately not any different that what happens almost nightly in Indy and other big cities, but that's 18 or 16 year old black kids shooting up other 18 or 16 year old black kids, so no one really cares about identifying any "themes." 

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3 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

I have seen plenty of articles about the 18 year old. Not sure why you think he is being ignored.....

 

1 minute ago, foxbat said:

Yeah - SF is wrong again.......

However - Notice the dates on the stories......all from last week......

Nothing substantial this week.  Again - this GROUP of shooters (two survivors) does not fit the prototype "conservative, straight male, stars and bars" kind of shooter the MSM wants to cover with any effort.......

Again - while I am glad there is not grandiose coverage of these losers, (unlike normal) I can't help but notice how fast this has disappeared.

7 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

What are the "these shootings" you are specifically talking about. School shootings? Mass shootings? Shootings where the shooters were kids? 

The only "theme" I see is people with grudges against the world, based on religion, politics, bullying, can't get a date, can't keep a job, mommy didn't love me, didn't get a pony, etc., etc., etc., took advantage of easy access to guns to kill or maim some people. 

Ultimately not any different that what happens almost nightly in Indy and other big cities, but that's 18 or 16 year old black kids shooting up other 18 or 16 year old black kids, so no one really cares about identifying any "themes." 

School shootings W.  The thread is about school shooting.  (IMHO)

The "Theme" SF (not speaking for IO) would tap on would be the "school shooter has to fit in the prototype category" to back a gun control narrative.  But when the shooter(s) turns out to be a bullied, or marginalized person, then a "some people did something" narrative (hat tip to Congresswoman Ilhan Omar) is put out, then the story can fade, or blame placed elsewhere - like the school system.

Referencing your last comment (outside of school shootings) - (IMHO) the majority of black on black shootings would most likely be related to gangs.  Violence of that sort has certainly become commonplace in Chicago and  I suppose Indy.

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13 minutes ago, swordfish said:

 

Yeah - SF is wrong again.......

However - Notice the dates on the stories......all from last week......

Nothing substantial this week.  Again - this GROUP of shooters (two survivors) does not fit the prototype "conservative, straight male, stars and bars" kind of shooter the MSM wants to cover with any effort.......

Again - while I am glad there is not grandiose coverage of these losers, (unlike normal) I can't help but notice how fast this has disappeared.

A big reason that this one hasn't lingered ... morbid or not, is body count not political affiliations or immigrant status.  North Carolina was similar.  Coverage tends to be tied to body count and, again morbid or not, sometimes the age of the kids.  Had it been one or two kids under the age of ten, the coverage would linger longer regardless of source.  Two teenagers close to graduating, probably less.  Ten teenagers closer to graduation, more coverage.  It's become more commonplace that it takes more for it to register at any level of sustainability in news cycles unless people push it to stay in the forefront with things like protests, show appearances, etc.

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1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

there is a recurring theme in "most" of these shootings and everyone refuses to see it.

I see it. It's people who wouldn't have access to guns if the current laws were enforced, but they're not being effectively enforced. Is law enforcement that scared of the gun lobby that they're letting this stuff slide? Are they just flat out incompetent? Do they 'turn a blind eye' to red flags? 

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Just now, foxbat said:

A big reason that this one hasn't lingered ... morbid or not, is body count not political affiliations or immigrant status.  North Carolina was similar.  Coverage tends to be tied to body count and, again morbid or not, sometimes the age of the kids.  Had it been one or two kids under the age of ten, the coverage would linger longer regardless of source.  Two teenagers close to graduating, probably less.  Ten teenagers closer to graduation, more coverage.  It's become more commonplace that it takes more for it to register at any level of sustainability in news cycles unless people push it to stay in the forefront with things like protests, show appearances, etc.

Yep - body count IS a factor in this equation.......

The heroics of young Mr. Castillo certainly deserved a little more attention (IMHO).  I mean so far it has been good, but that kid deserves a lot.

2 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

I see it. It's people who wouldn't have access to guns if the current laws were enforced, but they're not being effectively enforced. Is law enforcement that scared of the gun lobby that they're letting this stuff slide? Are they just flat out incompetent? Do they 'turn a blind eye' to red flags? 

Great topic Gonzo.  Punish the parents as well when there is obvious fault by not securing weapons.  From a lawyer's perspective for the parents I suppose that's easier said than done though.

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9 minutes ago, swordfish said:

 

Yeah - SF is wrong again.......

However - Notice the dates on the stories......all from last week......

Nothing substantial this week.  Again - this GROUP of shooters (two survivors) does not fit the prototype "conservative, straight male, stars and bars" kind of shooter the MSM wants to cover with any effort.......

Again - while I am glad there is not grandiose coverage of these losers, (unlike normal) I can't help but notice how fast this has disappeared.

School shootings W.  The thread is about school shooting.  (IMHO)

The "Theme" SF (not speaking for IO) would tap on would be the "school shooter has to fit in the prototype category" to back a gun control narrative.  But when the shooter(s) turns out to be a bullied, or marginalized person, then a "some people did something" narrative (hat tip to Congresswoman Ilhan Omar) is put out, then the story can fade, or blame placed elsewhere - like the school system.

Referencing your last comment (outside of school shootings) - (IMHO) the majority of black on black shootings would most likely be related to gangs.  Violence of that sort has certainly become commonplace in Chicago and  I suppose Indy.

Wha? Huh?

Since Columbine the "narrative" on school shootings has been the shooters were picked on outsiders; outcasts and social misfits; weirdos with mental issues; mad at a girl, mad at the world.

The notion that the prototypical school shooter is -- or is portrayed in the media as -- "conservative, straight male, stars and bars" is a complete fantasy. 

Now, there have been some recent mass shootings where the shooters were in fact  "conservative, straight male, stars and bars" types, like the dudes who shot up the synagogues in Pittsburgh and California. But those stories didn't get any more attention in the media than the leftie guy who shot up the Republican Congressmen at the ballfield. 

The simple truth is that these school shootings have become so ubiquitous that, as with other "true crime" stories, the amount of media attention they get now depends on how many people died (a "record setter" get lots of coverage) and whether there is some especially pathetic or sad aspect to it (little children killed; a teacher just back from her honeymoon shot) to play up. This last shooting, sadly, was just run of the mill: only one kid killed, no babies or cute puppies involved. So a hot takes on Trump's latest tweet on the trade war with China quickly moved it  off the front page... 

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1 hour ago, Wabash82 said:

 

The only "theme" I see is people with grudges against the world, based on religion, politics, bullying, can't get a date, can't keep a job, mommy didn't love me, didn't get a pony, etc., etc., etc., took advantage of easy access to guns to kill or maim some people. 

 

You think that theme didn't exist when I was a high schooler?  When you were a high schooler?  Why does it seem like a much larger issue today than when we were young adults?

I don't think its nearly as simple as you make it.

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30 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

You think that theme didn't exist when I was a high schooler?  When you were a high schooler?  Why does it seem like a much larger issue today than when we were young adults?

I don't think its nearly as simple as you make it.

I didn't suggest those themes are new. That wasn't my point at all.

In 1974, when I entered HS, there were about 100 million guns in the hands of private citizens in the U.S., with a population of around 200 million. Today, there are about 350 million guns in the hands of private citizens in the U.S. with a population of 325 million.

And in the 1970s, a very large percentage of the guns in private hands were hunting weapons --  bolt action rifles and shotguns -- or 5 or 6 shot revolvers. Today, a very large percentage of the guns in the hands of private citizens are semi-automatic handguns and rifles that are not used by their owners for hunting, and which are designed as "self-defense" weapoons -- i.e., designed to be used against human beings -- with magazines that can hold 10+ rounds. 

Troubled kids in the 1970s who wanted to take it out on the world could not easily get their hands on guns in order to do that.  Today, many of then can, and the guns they get their hands on are easy to use (i.e., easy to kill or maim with).

Edited by Wabash82

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5 hours ago, TrojanDad said:

You think that theme didn't exist when I was a high schooler?  When you were a high schooler?  Why does it seem like a much larger issue today than when we were young adults?

I don't think its nearly as simple as you make it.

I think it is still a ripple effect. Suicide rates are high too. Indiana is one of the highest ranking states for attempts and death by suicide. Columbine put things in hyper focus. People see an avenue to 1. Get the most attention possible. 2. Inflict a large amount of damage, injury, and/or death in a short span of time. Suicide follows the same pattern, seeing friends or family members do it, seeing the attention gained. The common denominator though, as far as the individuals go, is mental health, and/or medications. 

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18 hours ago, Wabash82 said:

What are the "these shootings" you are specifically talking about. School shootings? Mass shootings? Shootings where the shooters were kids? 

The only "theme" I see is people with grudges against the world, based on religion, politics, bullying, can't get a date, can't keep a job, mommy didn't love me, didn't get a pony, etc., etc., etc., took advantage of easy access to guns to kill or maim some people. 

Ultimately not any different that what happens almost nightly in Indy and other big cities, but that's 18 or 16 year old black kids shooting up other 18 or 16 year old black kids, so no one really cares about identifying any "themes." 

Take your pick.

Prior to the last meltdown of this forum I posted stats from mass shootings and the presence of mental illness and psychiatric drug use. 

I'll concede the point, you guys are right, we need more gun laws, especially in light of how well our current laws are working and being vigorously prosecuted.

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12 hours ago, Irishman said:

I think it is still a ripple effect. Suicide rates are high too. Indiana is one of the highest ranking states for attempts and death by suicide. Columbine put things in hyper focus. People see an avenue to 1. Get the most attention possible. 2. Inflict a large amount of damage, injury, and/or death in a short span of time. Suicide follows the same pattern, seeing friends or family members do it, seeing the attention gained. The common denominator though, as far as the individuals go, is mental health, and/or medications. 

But this doesn't address root cause....why the shift in societies behavior today vs. when we were younger?  I went to a decent sized consolidated high school, lots of guns in the gun racks in students cars outside in the parking lot.  Yet it never crossed anyone's mind to take that gun into a building and discharge it at fellow classmates...even if some of them were bullies.  Why has behavior and culture changed and can this be addressed?  (or is it too late?)

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I get it.

1) It is a mental health issue if a 16 year old white suburban or rural kid high on Ritalin shoots another 16 year old because he is one of the "jocks" at school who bully him.

2) It is a law-and-order issue when a 16 year old black city kid stoned on pot shoots a 16 year old from the same neighborhood because he is in a different street gang.

3) It is not a problem that either kid had a gun; the problem is the paucity of good-guys-with-guns to "get the drop" on these kids. 

 

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25 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

But this doesn't address root cause....why the shift in societies behavior today vs. when we were younger?  I went to a decent sized consolidated high school, lots of guns in the gun racks in students cars outside in the parking lot.  Yet it never crossed anyone's mind to take that gun into a building and discharge it at fellow classmates...even if some of them were bullies.  Why has behavior and culture changed and can this be addressed?  (or is it too late?)

Other societal shifts; divorce rates/single parent homes, unemployment rates, lack of careers compared to jobs, parent working multiple jobs, children in foster care, drug addictions, are all more significant now than they were back then.

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2 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

I get it.

1) It is a mental health issue if a 16 year old white suburban or rural kid high on Ritalin shoots another 16 year old because he is one of the "jocks" at school who bully him.

2) It is a law-and-order issue when a 16 year old black city kid stoned on pot shoots a 16 year old from the same neighborhood because he is in a different street gang.

3) It is not a problem that either kid had a gun; the problem is the paucity of good-guys-with-guns to "get the drop" on these kids. 

 

#3 - IF either kid had a gun - it was obtained illegally.  So YES - THAT IS THE PROBLEM.  Your solution seems to be less guns, less problems.......not attempting to correct the path to the kids have guns and are using them point.

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18 hours ago, Wabash82 said:

I didn't suggest those themes are new. That wasn't my point at all.

In 1974, when I entered HS, there were about 100 million guns in the hands of private citizens in the U.S., with a population of around 200 million. Today, there are about 350 million guns in the hands of private citizens in the U.S. with a population of 325 million.

And in the 1970s, a very large percentage of the guns in private hands were hunting weapons --  bolt action rifles and shotguns -- or 5 or 6 shot revolvers. Today, a very large percentage of the guns in the hands of private citizens are semi-automatic handguns and rifles that are not used by their owners for hunting, and which are designed as "self-defense" weapoons -- i.e., designed to be used against human beings -- with magazines that can hold 10+ rounds. 

Troubled kids in the 1970s who wanted to take it out on the world could not easily get their hands on guns in order to do that.  Today, many of then can, and the guns they get their hands on are easy to use (i.e., easy to kill or maim with).

I know what your point was, and I am saying its deeper than your point.

Automatic and semi-automatic weapons were available in the 1970's and prior.  A law went on the books in 1934 requiring automatic weapons to be registered with the fed govt.  Since 1986, gunmakers have been banned from making automatic weapons for the civilian market.  Auto's and SA's have been around for a long, long time.  Surplus weapons following WWII were sold to the public from the gov't.  

Now, to your point about weapons with smaller ammo capacities....both Columbine and VA Tech (most casualties for a US school shooting) did not involve SA weapons.  I personally know farming families that own AR's for varmit/animal control that have never considered pointing it at another human being.  Self-defense isn't the only reason to own one.

In the 1970's and early 80's, I could easily get my hands on guns.....both from my home and also from other homes if I wanted to inflict damage.  Not sure I align at all with your statement people could not easily get their hands on guns.  I don't remember many restrictions back in those days.

BTW, I own semi-automatic shotguns....definitely not easy to hunt waterfowl, upland birds, etc. without them.  Holds five 2 3/4" shells with the plug removed.  I can easily order extensions via the internet and triple that capacity.  Can you image what a shotgun can do in tighter spaces?  So, its not just about an AR.  

I just don't buy its all about the tool, and even if we want to stop there, prohibition doesn't seem to have a solid history in the US.  Seems to create markets.

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8 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

I get it.

1) It is a mental health issue if a 16 year old white suburban or rural kid high on Ritalin shoots another 16 year old because he is one of the "jocks" at school who bully him.

2) It is a law-and-order issue when a 16 year old black city kid stoned on pot shoots a 16 year old from the same neighborhood because he is in a different street gang.

3) It is not a problem that either kid had a gun; the problem is the paucity of good-guys-with-guns to "get the drop" on these kids. 

 

Well there is it.....textbook play 

9 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Other societal shifts; divorce rates/single parent homes, unemployment rates, lack of careers compared to jobs, parent working multiple jobs, children in foster care, drug addictions, are all more significant now than they were back then.

agree....I could add many others....that point to why a human life has become less valuable.

 

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5 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

I get it.

1) It is a mental health issue if a 16 year old white suburban or rural kid high on Ritalin shoots another 16 year old because he is one of the "jocks" at school who bully him.

2) It is a law-and-order issue when a 16 year old black city kid stoned on pot shoots a 16 year old from the same neighborhood because he is in a different street gang.

3) It is not a problem that either kid had a gun; the problem is the paucity of good-guys-with-guns to "get the drop" on these kids. 

 

1=Apples

2=Oranges

3=Ridiculous

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3 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

agree....I could add many others....that point to why a human life has become less valuable.

 

I agree, and kids at home alone during the Summer with no supervision, while a parent is at work? Left to their own  decisions; whether playing video games that are extremely violent, or hanging out, will find trouble.

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11 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I agree, and kids at home alone during the Summer with no supervision, while a parent is at work? Left to their own  decisions; whether playing video games that are extremely violent, or hanging out, will find trouble.

Agree with all of your comments....also it seems that social media eliminates the human element.  I am blown away of what I read on Twitter...things that people say to each other.  Cyber bullying, threats, etc.

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38 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I agree, and kids at home alone during the Summer with no supervision, while a parent is at work?

With all the high taxes in most families both parents need to work full time in order to make ends meet.  What is the solution?  Full time, 365-days a year government school?   Government appointed nannies what stay at home with a couple's children?

  

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