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Cinderella is a myth


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43 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

58-2 is the record between top half Sagarin teams and bottom half Sagrin rated teams. 

Cinderella is a myth yet it is a huge talking point as to why the all-in exists. 

 

What do you consider a Cinderella Story? By definition: Cinderella team are used to refer to situations in which competitors achieve far greater success than would reasonably have been best expected" you can be in a upper half of Sagarin and not be totally expected to beat teams and make a run. Cinderella doesn't actually mean you have to be an 0-8 team beating someone else. I think there is far confusion on Cinderella.

 

I will give prime example: 2000 Plainfield was a Cinderella. Defeated a super highly rated Cathedral team (considered top in the state 14-7). Plainfield wasn't a 0-9, 1-8, 2-7 etc team), they were 9-0 but considered a cinderella. I don't look at record as much.

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2 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Understand the latter....while again, someone is telling a 7-2 team located in a different region of the state outside of the populated Indy metro area they are staying at home.

I don't think it is as easy as you claim changing conferences and traveling all over the northern part of the state.  That impacts all sports and middle schools as well.

You are absolutely entitled to your thoughts and there's some merit.  I think seeding (and that would be controversial to an extent) would at least allow teams to decide it on the field vs. an imperfect computer algorithm.  I completely agree with you that teams like Brownsburg and Ben Davis should not be meeting in the first game of the sectionals.

It’s not telling at all. Warsaw played a joke of a schedule (in comparison to the rest of 6A) and wasn’t competitive against their two best opponents, both from lower classes. Computer rankings such as Sagarin, CalPreps, etc exist for this very sole reason. Raw W-L record is an extremely poor way to gauge how good a team is given the imbalance in scheduling.

I’m all for seeding. It would be a precursor to a qualifier. Let’s see it happen!

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1 minute ago, FastpacedO said:

What do you consider a Cinderella Story? By definition: Cinderella team are used to refer to situations in which competitors achieve far greater success than would reasonably have been best expected" you can be in a upper half of Sagarin and not be totally expected to beat teams and make a run. Cinderella doesn't actually mean you have to be an 0-8 team beating someone else. I think there is far confusion on Cinderella.

 

I will give prime example: 2000 Plainfield was a Cinderella. Defeated a super highly rated Cathedral team (considered top in the state 14-7). Plainfield wasn't a 0-9, 1-8, 2-7 etc team), they were 9-0 but considered a cinderella. I don't look at record as much.

Plainfield vs Cathedral was a big upset, but nowhere close to a Cinderella run. That Plainfield team had multiple D1 kids and believe they had an OL eventually play in the NFL.

For me, a Cinderella team would be a bottom half Sagarin rated team that beats 2-3 top half rated Sagarin teams en route to a sectional championship, akin to a 13+ seed reaching the S16 of the NCAA basketball tournament.

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1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

For me, a Cinderella team would be a bottom half Sagarin rated team that beats 2-3 top half rated Sagarin teams en route to a sectional championship, akin to a 13+ seed reaching the S16 of the NCAA basketball tournament.

If the field is cut in half does a Cinderella exist? Based on what you're saying here it doesn't appear to be the case?

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37 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Clean sweep in the first round of 5A and 6A as top half Sagarin rated teams go 16-0 vs the bottom half. Top half Sagarin teams go 74-2 in the first round against the bottom statewide in our all-in format, proving that Cinderella doesn’t exist.

It’s the same every year.

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49 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Clean sweep in the first round of 5A and 6A as top half Sagarin rated teams go 16-0 vs the bottom half. Top half Sagarin teams go 74-2 in the first round against the bottom statewide in our all-in format, proving that Cinderella doesn’t exist.

 

Let me present to you the Pike Central Chargers. Yet, in their first real game will get destroyed this week.

Edited by Digger08
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22 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

There’s nothing Cinderella about the Pike Central Chargers. They’re in the sectional finals due to a broken format.

I agree, they're no Cinderella, but I bet there was a vibe in that school last week that hasn't been there in a long time. And I bet it will be even greater this week. I'm happy for the Chargers. Not sure OV v. GS would have been any better next week than it was last night.

Don't beat me up. It's still early down here... LOL. 

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2 minutes ago, tango said:

I agree, they're no Cinderella, but I bet there was a vibe in that school last week that hasn't been there in a long time. And I bet it will be even greater this week. I'm happy for the Chargers. Not sure OV v. GS would have been any better next week than it was last night.

Don't beat me up. It's still early down here... LOL. 

In a format that not only allowed 4 of the 7 worst teams in 3A to “make” the tournament, but pitted all four of them on the same side of the bracket, there was always going to be that feeling for one of those schools and communities. It’s the de facto result of a broken tournament.

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

In a format that not only allowed 4 of the 7 worst teams in 3A to “make” the tournament, but pitted all four of them on the same side of the bracket, there was always going to be that feeling for one of those schools and communities. It’s the de facto result of a broken tournament.

I know, I know. But how is OV v. GS any better if it's next week instead of last night? 

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41 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

A sectional championship barn burner between GS and OV sounds a hell of a lot better than an OV-Pike Central second half running clock, but that’s just me I guess.

The championship probably was last night. Is the game itself any better if it happens next week? I expect every player and person in attendance last night in Spencer knew what was on the line. 

1 minute ago, Bobref said:

How good is this from Brownsburg Coach John Hart?
 

image.png.c07f131b5b2971916b412cf88a88922f.png

Somebody would have to sharpen the crayons for the the brain trust on N Meridian.

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10 minutes ago, tango said:

The championship probably was last night. Is the game itself any better if it happens next week? I expect every player and person in attendance last night in Spencer knew what was on the line. 

Again, the higher the profile game, the higher level of competition I prefer to see.

I don’t see what the problem with that is?

Edited by Footballking16
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18 minutes ago, tango said:

The championship probably was last night. Is the game itself any better if it happens next week? I expect every player and person in attendance last night in Spencer knew what was on the line.

One of the advantages of seeding would be these two teams would play later in the tournament, which would give people from teams already eliminated a chance to see the game. One of the things I loved about working a sectional final or regional was all the letter jackets from different schools you’d see at the game. That’s better for high school football in general.

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21 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Again, the higher the profile game, the higher level of competition I prefer to see.

I don’t see what the problem with that is?

If you had your wish, LN probably wouldn't have "qualified" for the playoffs and LC either.  I believe both, with losing records, are worthy of being in the playoffs.  There's nothing wrong with the current all-in system that warrants 11 pages of discussion, imho.

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12 minutes ago, Bobref said:

One of the advantages of seeding would be these two teams would play later in the tournament, which would give people from teams already eliminated a chance to see the game. One of the things I loved about working a sectional final or regional was all the letter jackets from different schools you’d see at the game. That’s better for high school football in general.

And one of the advantages currently is you can see a great game each week of the playoffs. I took a carload to Mier last week to watch Guerin/Oak Hill, and a little less than a carload to watch the nut-buster at Owen Valley last night.

You seed it, we'd likely stay home the first two weeks.

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3 minutes ago, PHJIrish said:

If you had your wish, LN probably wouldn't have "qualified" for the playoffs and LC either.  I believe both, with losing records, are worthy of being in the playoffs.  There's nothing wrong with the current all-in system that warrants 11 pages of discussion, imho.

LC (12) and LN (13) both would have been in a playoff qualifier using Sagarin that effectively cut the field in half at the conclusion of the regular season.

Thanks again for contributing.

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

LC (12) and LN (13) both would have been in a playoff qualifier using Sagarin that effectively cut the field in half at the conclusion of the regular season.

Thanks again for contributing.

And I thank you for carrying on this discussion.

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6 minutes ago, Stoner said:

And one of the advantages currently is you can see a great game each week of the playoffs. I took a carload to Mier last week to watch Guerin/Oak Hill, and a little less than a carload to watch the nut-buster at Owen Valley last night.

You seed it, we'd likely stay home the first two weeks.

Not with a top 50% qualification format.

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6 minutes ago, Stoner said:

And one of the advantages currently is you can see a great game each week of the playoffs. I took a carload to Mier last week to watch Guerin/Oak Hill, and a little less than a carload to watch the nut-buster at Owen Valley last night.

You seed it, we'd likely stay home the first two weeks.

You seed it then after a few years there’s no other logical choice but to cut the field in half.

Appropriate seeding is step 1 to an eventual qualifier. That’s why the IHSAA hasn’t enacted it.

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