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Cinderella is a myth


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8 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Seems odd to me. This was during the time I was in HS. We played our last game on Wednesday and the playoffs began the next week. Several teams around here were making the playoffs, not saying it didn’t happen, but I sure don’t remember it. 

Many things in the 1970's seemed a little odd to me.  From 1977-1979 for whatever reason, not every school played their last football game on the same date.  In 1979 most schools played their last football game on Friday October 26.  LCC and others were to play their last game of the season on Thursday Nov. 1.  The playoff game was Friday Nov. 2 and Hobart had to cancel their game with LCC.  Ritter played their last game of the 1979 season on Wednesday October 24.  Starting in 1981 the last game of the season was played on Wednesday October 28 and the sectional game was played on Tuesday November 3.  The regional game was played on Saturday November 7, 1981.  They had 4 days between games.

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2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Early indications are that top half Sagarin rated teams went 58-2 against bottom half Sagarin rated teams last night in class 1A-4A. Typical, but not at all surprising.

Dekalb #39 over #29 New Haven and #40 New Castle over #31 Beech Grove both out of 4A were the two “upset” winners. Will be back later with final score analysis to show just how lopsided last nights affairs were.

Cut the field in half people, please.

58-2? Wow. Thanks for the update. 

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5 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Early indications are that top half Sagarin rated teams went 58-2 against bottom half Sagarin rated teams last night in class 1A-4A. Typical, but not at all surprising.

Dekalb #39 over #29 New Haven and #40 New Castle over #31 Beech Grove both out of 4A were the two “upset” winners. Will be back later with final score analysis to show just how lopsided last nights affairs were.

Cut the field in half people, please.

The field WAS cut down a bunch last night.  And more people got out to see football on a beautiful night weatherwise.  No down side to that, imho.

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5 hours ago, PHJIrish said:

The field WAS cut down a bunch last night.  And more people got out to see football on a beautiful night weatherwise.  No down side to that, imho.

Several top teams were cut down by other top teams as teams who had no business playing in the postseason advanced. The all-in sucks and the regulated season doesn’t mean Sh*t.

Travesty 

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34 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Several top teams were cut down by other top teams as teams who had no business playing in the postseason advanced. The all-in sucks and the regulated season doesn’t mean Sh*t.

Travesty 

Mount Vernon (Fortville) and Vincennes are prime examples

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20 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Exactly. Glad Pike Central won a postseason game at the expense of Mount Vernon or Ben Davis/Brownsburg or South Putnam or Oak Hill.

Make it make sense.

What does Pike Central have to do with anything? In your format, the Mount Vernon, Ben Davis, Brownsburg, South Putnam and Oak Hills lose to good teams in the first round anyway. Only good teams would be allowed to play in the tournament so only good teams lose in the first round of the tournament. Your issue really is, you don't like that Pike Central won a game in the tournament. Not that those other teams lost.

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23 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Exactly. Glad Pike Central won a postseason game at the expense of Mount Vernon or Ben Davis/Brownsburg or South Putnam or Oak Hill.

Make it make sense.

Just curious how 3A Pike Central has ANY influence at all on 6A Ben Davis, 6A Brownsburg, and 1A South Putnam?  Just chaff?

Incidentally, this same thing will likely happen in a qualifying system too, except it will be 5-4 playing 5-4 while 9-0 plays 8-1 ... or, by Sagarin, #31 3A vs. #32 3A while #5 3A plays #2 3A.  The issue isn't with all-in; it's with a lack of seeding / blind draw.  The only way to avoid that problem is to make sure that only 9-0s and 8-1s are allowed in the post-season.  I suspect that the complaint at that point, however, would be two 8-1s met in the first round and so did two 9-0s. 

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53 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Just curious how 3A Pike Central has ANY influence at all on 6A Ben Davis, 6A Brownsburg, and 1A South Putnam?  Just chaff?

Incidentally, this same thing will likely happen in a qualifying system too, except it will be 5-4 playing 5-4 while 9-0 plays 8-1 ... or, by Sagarin, #31 3A vs. #32 3A while #5 3A plays #2 3A.  The issue isn't with all-in; it's with a lack of seeding / blind draw.  The only way to avoid that problem is to make sure that only 9-0s and 8-1s are allowed in the post-season.  I suspect that the complaint at that point, however, would be two 8-1s met in the first round and so did two 9-0s. 

An all-in format that allows Pike Central to play Washington while Ben Davis plays Brownsburg is a travesty. Get rid of it. It’s not that hard.

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1 hour ago, JQWL said:

What does Pike Central have to do with anything? In your format, the Mount Vernon, Ben Davis, Brownsburg, South Putnam and Oak Hills lose to good teams in the first round anyway. Only good teams would be allowed to play in the tournament so only good teams lose in the first round of the tournament. Your issue really is, you don't like that Pike Central won a game in the tournament. Not that those other teams lost.

A format that allows Pike Central and Washington to play in the first round while Oak Hill and Guerin play in the first round is a travesty. Pike Central and Washington don’t belong in the tournament to begin with, let alone have a favorable first round match up. 9-0 Oak Hill playing a top 10 Sagarin opponent in round 1 while two of the worst teams in 3A squaring off against each other (Pike Central & Washington) is a travesty.

Make it make sense 

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1 hour ago, JQWL said:

What does Pike Central have to do with anything? In your format, the Mount Vernon, Ben Davis, Brownsburg, South Putnam and Oak Hills lose to good teams in the first round anyway. Only good teams would be allowed to play in the tournament so only good teams lose in the first round of the tournament. Your issue really is, you don't like that Pike Central won a game in the tournament. Not that those other teams lost.

In a format that effectively cuts the field in half at the conclusion of the regular season and is seeded accordingly, no these good teams don’t play each other in the first round. That’s why the IHSAA tournament is beyond flawed.

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16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

An all-in format that allows Pike Central to play Washington while Ben Davis plays Brownsburg is a travesty. Get rid of it. It’s not that hard.

No, not effectively seeding the post-season allows Pike Central to play Washington while Ben Davis plays Brownsburg ... not an all-in format.  Effectively seeding the post-season takes care of that problem if done correctly.  A compromise that most folks can likely easily buy into.  Even if it was slightly off and had #1 in a sectional playing #7 and #2 playing #8, I think most folks could/would make that compromise.  The biggest issue is getting #1 and #2 on opposite sides of the bracket ... although #4 and 4 on opposite sides would be nice as well.  I used Sagarin, but pick your poison on the ordering.  This is what Sectional 30 would look like. 

  • A1. Gibson Southern (9-0) vs Princeton Community (0-9)
  • A4. Mt. Vernon (5-4) vs Pike Central (1-8)
  • B3. Vincennes Lincoln (4-5) vs. West Vigo (3-6)
  • B2. Owen Valley (9-0) vs Washington (2-7)

Second round is Winner A1 vs Winner A4 and Winner B3 vs. Winner B2.  Championship is Winner A vs Winner B.

Problem that you complained about, "unworthy teams vs. unworthy teams" and "worthy teams vs. worthy teams" in first round pretty much addressed.

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52 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

A format that allows Pike Central and Washington to play in the first round while Oak Hill and Guerin play in the first round is a travesty. Pike Central and Washington don’t belong in the tournament to begin with, let alone have a favorable first round match up. 9-0 Oak Hill playing a top 10 Sagarin opponent in round 1 while two of the worst teams in 3A squaring off against each other (Pike Central & Washington) is a travesty.

Make it make sense 

I feel like you the vast majority of people on this thread disagree with what you're putting out there but I do appreciate your confidence in continually believing you're right. Keep up the good fight. I personally would like to see the sectionals seeded, no rematch games in the first round, and private schools in their own tournament but I'll probably never see it. I feel like I'm ok with things not being the way I want all the time.

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Since the first (and only) sectional win in school history, Pike Central has drawn and lost to Heritage Hills (65-7), Mater Dei (56-0), Ev Bosse (83-23) and Gibson Southern (63-6). No one seemed to complain, yet for the first time in 20 years they win and its a travesty. 

If you can’t find The Fish Hut on a map, feel free to sit this one out. 

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40 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I feel like you the vast majority of people on this thread disagree with what you're putting out there but I do appreciate your confidence in continually believing you're right. Keep up the good fight. I personally would like to see the sectionals seeded, no rematch games in the first round, and private schools in their own tournament but I'll probably never see it. I feel like I'm ok with things not being the way I want all the time.

I will continue to push my narrative until the IHSAA gets it right. They haven’t since 1984.

44 minutes ago, foxbat said:

 

No, not effectively seeding the post-season allows Pike Central to play Washington while Ben Davis plays Brownsburg ... not an all-in format.  Effectively seeding the post-season takes care of that problem if done correctly.  A compromise that most folks can likely easily buy into.  Even if it was slightly off and had #1 in a sectional playing #7 and #2 playing #8, I think most folks could/would make that compromise.  The biggest issue is getting #1 and #2 on opposite sides of the bracket ... although #4 and 4 on opposite sides would be nice as well.  I used Sagarin, but pick your poison on the ordering.  This is what Sectional 30 would look like. 

  • A1. Gibson Southern (9-0) vs Princeton Community (0-9)
  • A4. Mt. Vernon (5-4) vs Pike Central (1-8)
  • B3. Vincennes Lincoln (4-5) vs. West Vigo (3-6)
  • B2. Owen Valley (9-0) vs Washington (2-7)

Second round is Winner A1 vs Winner A4 and Winner B3 vs. Winner B2.  Championship is Winner A vs Winner B.

Problem that you complained about, "unworthy teams vs. unworthy teams" and "worthy teams vs. worthy teams" in first round pretty much addressed.

The second they seed the sectionals accordingly a qualifier is sure to follow. 58-2 top half vs bottom half. 

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17 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I will continue to push my narrative until the IHSAA gets it right. They haven’t since 1984.

The second they seed the sectionals accordingly a qualifier is sure to follow. 58-2 top half vs bottom half. 

I would say it's more likely seperate public/private tournaments follow a qualifier.

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7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I will continue to push my narrative until the IHSAA gets it right. They haven’t since 1984.

The second they seed the sectionals accordingly a qualifier is sure to follow. 58-2 top half vs bottom half. 

Not likely.  If they go to seeded sectionals, it will take them at least a decade to "assess" the impact and, since the impact will be minimal, if at all, to top-performing teams, there will be very little grousing going on that will require direct action.  A seeded sectional, with an all-in, is a way to respond, if they do at all, in a very risk-averse way.  If there's anything that we've learned from the IHSAA is that risk-averse is their middle name. 

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