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Coach_K

Madison High School Football Coach

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By just about any measure, this program would be considered an abysmal failure.  

Has the school ever considered contraction?

Or has a move to a less competitive conference been considered?

If the kids are just choosing football to stay in shape and kill time before basketball season, there are many other more cost effective options

Maybe the new assistant AD will lead he program in the direction of potential contraction given the extreme challenges they face year in and year out

 

 

 

 

Edited by DT
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I realize that I am being sucked in by the resident troll, but I refuse to let the program be spoken of in such a manner. Numbers are numbers, and that is fine, but what is most important is what you don't see in the significance of the sport to the many student-athletes who participate. The community loves football and supports it dearly. Like many rural communities, Madison has been hit heavily by the drug epidemic and has one of the highest rates of suicide in the state (did you read the article??). Football is all some of these kids have, win or lose. 

If you follow the Hoosier Hills Conference, you will know that the schedule has in fact been adjusted to allow the smaller programs the opportunity to schedule an out of conference game. Other conference affiliations have been considered but such a move isn't as simple as it seems. There aren't many programs in southeast Indiana with which to pair. Coach Morrison is a Madison alum and has been loyal and given everything he has for the program. Someone else will come in and do the same. Regardless of record, these kids and the community will support the coach and the student-athletes that participate. 

These points have been argued to you many times and you fail to consider anything besides shear numbers. If that is all we ever consider, we fail the young men we try to support with this game. For some schools with very small enrollments and low participation, perhaps it is something they must consider. Madison has nearly 900 students at the high school and regularly has 60-70 kids on the team. Football isn't going anywhere, nor should it. 

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I certainly understand and appreciate your point of view

However I do believe that momentum is building in this country towards the contraction option for chronically non competitive football programs .   It's certainly an unpopular and distasteful option for many fans and supporters, but it is the right and practical choice for many schools facing insurmountable headwinds

You have a new generation of admins who are coming into power who do not have the loyalty and passion to football as did their predecessors

Changing demographics also portend continued participation declines, further exacerbating existing challenges

I believe we will continue to see a slow but steady decline in high school football programs in Indiana and across the country, especially in the Midwest and the Northeast where population declines have been the trend for the past decade.  

 

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44 minutes ago, DT said:

I certainly understand and appreciate your point of view

However I do believe that momentum is building in this country towards the contraction option for chronically non competitive football programs .   It's certainly an unpopular and distasteful option for many fans and supporters, but it is the right and practical choice for many schools facing insurmountable headwinds

You have a new generation of admins who are coming into power who do not have the loyalty and passion to football as did their predecessors

Changing demographics also portend continued participation declines, further exacerbating existing challenges

I believe we will continue to see a slow but steady decline in high school football programs in Indiana and across the country, especially in the Midwest and the Northeast where population declines have been the trend for the past decade.  

 

DT you might be right, but have you been to Madison?  Did you read the NY Times article?

I went to college in Hanover only about 5 miles away.  I know the city, some of the people and the history.  The student-athletes there need football.   Football provides the kids an opportunity to develop a bond, friendship and brotherhood not to mention keep the kids safe.  The boys learn accountability and have the football staff looking out for them.  The coaches at Madison educate their student-athletes about life as much as the game of football. 

You and I probably view success differently.  Yes they might not be win on the gridiron, but who is it to say that winning is success for this community?  Just because a team doesn't win doesn't mean it isn't successful.  Coaches are with these guys for a minimum of 20 hours per week in season and countless hours out of season.  We are positive role models who represent what their lives could become instead of what they see everyday.  I'm only 34, but when former players come up and talk to me they appreciate how much work and time I gave them.  

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13 hours ago, DT said:

By just about any measure, this program would be considered an abysmal failure.  

Has the school ever considered contraction?

Or has a move to a less competitive conference been considered?

If the kids are just choosing football to stay in shape and kill time before basketball season, there are many other more cost effective options

Maybe the new assistant AD will lead he program in the direction of potential contraction given the extreme challenges they face year in and year out

 

1 hour ago, DT said:

I certainly understand and appreciate your point of view

However I do believe that momentum is building in this country towards the contraction option for chronically non competitive football programs .   It's certainly an unpopular and distasteful option for many fans and supporters, but it is the right and practical choice for many schools facing insurmountable headwinds

You have a new generation of admins who are coming into power who do not have the loyalty and passion to football as did their predecessors

Changing demographics also portend continued participation declines, further exacerbating existing challenges

I believe we will continue to see a slow but steady decline in high school football programs in Indiana and across the country, especially in the Midwest and the Northeast where population declines have been the trend for the past decade.  

Didn't I read a while back you were "retiring" from the GID? We'll have to change your name from DT to Brett Favre.

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Madison Football is a very unique situation.  They are the smallest school in the HHC.   The Cubs are a 4A School playing in a 5A and 6A conference.  If Madison is in a league with schools of similar demographic makeup, then I thoroughly believe that they win more and very possibly finish the season with a winning record every now and then.  All I can say from being the head coach for 4 seasons that the kids will give you everything they got.  They will compete and they will play their hearts out every Friday night.  Jut look at Sectional of 2018  Madison with one win travels to a 6-3 Edgewood Squad.  Madison does lose but it is a ballgame the whole way through.  A break hear and there and Madison comes home with a victory.  (Edgewood won 28-19)

I came down in 2003 -  1st season 0-10   We had some injuries to some key players in weeks one and two.   I started majority freshman and sophomores.  As coaches know it is hard to win on Friday nights with your JV squad on the field.  We were defeated in the sectional by a very good Pat Parks Shelbyville team.

2004 - 0-10 Again.  However, we made strides  we were up 14 at half in week one.  They finally figured out where to run the ball at in the second half.  We lost 21-20.  Week 4 we are at Jeff.  Thy got PJ Thomas - all state baseball player and punter at QB  and Trey Burgess (future IU running back).  It is 4th and 4 under 2 min Jeff has just used their last timeout.  We are nursing a 16-14 lead.  We stuff their ISO play for a 2 yard loss.  Madison has never beaten Jeff.. We get called for a facemask.  Kid did not mean to do it but it happened.   Sectional we draw East Central.   21-17  East Central with 2 min to go  we are driving.   25 going in on a 3rd down play my Q throws an interception  they take it nearly all the way back and score late for the victory.  Their principal comes in to our locker room to tell us how much respect he has for our program.  How the fans at the beginning of the game were making plans for running clock and being able to get home early.  We also did not have 2 of our best players for that game.

2005- We start out of the gate 3-0 and are the WLKY team of the week.  Jeff week 4 Operation football and the whole 9 yards.  We make a miscue hear and there and lose by 14  very competitive game bounce back with a win vs JC and sit 4-1.  Get New Albany, East and BNL who are all ranked and they show us what we need to work on.  Play JC in sectional and get our first playoff win in a number of years.  Lose in the semi finals to a very good SD team who we had beaten in week two.  Our offense was potent that year.  Coach Ketchum went for it on 4th down every time to keep our kids off the filed.  My Q set the record for completions in a game that night 37   What is most impressive is he did that on 44 attempts.

2006 - A season of high hopes. Make some mistakes week one lose 21-8.  Week 3 we bounce back and beat a sound FC team.  Play through some injuries and such come in at 2-7 on the year. Lose to JC in overtime on a 4th down QB Draw.   We knew it was coming. Our kid just did not get low enough on the hit and their Q bulled into the endzone for the win.  could we have won more that year maybe but we played hard every week and we never gave up.

7 and 34 is not going to win anyone any coach of the year awards. However if you consider who the Cubs have to play week in and week out I call it respectable.  I have experienced great success in football as well as other sports prior to Madison.  I have experienced great amounts of success in football and other sports post Madison. And while at Madison I experienced success.  What means the most to me is all the great kids that I got to work with and be a part of their lives.  A majority of my former players are doing great things in all parts of the world.  A few of them I have stayed right at home. # 60 Patric Morrison would eventually become Madison's Head Football Coach.  Former All-State Lineman Ryan Lamb would join Patric as an Asst. Coach for the Cubs.  I got a big list of others that are near and dear to my heart.  I will not bore everyone with an already lengthy post.  Just know this.  Before you bash a program or suggest a team fold tent and give up... please consider all the factors. Consider the kids that give their time and energy to 40 guaranteed Friday Nights. Consider all the work the coaches put in.. not to win but to just be competitive and not be  embarrassed by a wide margin of defeat.  And consider all the parents and community that desperately want a winner and who support their teams no matter what the outcome.

Thanks

Mike Dowell

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DT, have you ever had a positive thought even once in your entire life. It has been made abundantly clear to you the positive influences that football has in young mens lives, time and time again. Still you beat the drum of contraction as if it is the only solution. 

Have you volunteered at any of these “low performing” schools in an effort to turn them around? Or do you show up and tell them “You suck, I’d quit if I were you”

Just venting, that’s all. 

Coaches coach, players play, fans cheer.

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3 hours ago, SenatorFan said:

DT, have you ever had a positive thought even once in your entire life. It has been made abundantly clear to you the positive influences that football has in young mens lives, time and time again. Still you beat the drum of contraction as if it is the only solution. 

Have you volunteered at any of these “low performing” schools in an effort to turn them around? Or do you show up and tell them “You suck, I’d quit if I were you”

Just venting, that’s all. 

Coaches coach, players play, fans cheer.

I don't volunteer

Dad said "it ain't worth doin if you don't get paid for it"

Lol

I was living out of state once and asked him to sell a car for me that I had left behind.  He said "sure son, for 3% commission"

Pure capitalist.  Like father like son

 

 

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13 hours ago, DT said:

I don't volunteer

Dad said "it ain't worth doin if you don't get paid for it"

Lol

I was living out of state once and asked him to sell a car for me that I had left behind.  He said "sure son, for 3% commission"

Pure capitalist.  Like father like son

 

 

You are not a pure capitalist.

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On 5/16/2019 at 6:39 AM, Coach Dowell said:

Madison Football is a very unique situation.  They are the smallest school in the HHC.   The Cubs are a 4A School playing in a 5A and 6A conference.  If Madison is in a league with schools of similar demographic makeup, then I thoroughly believe that they win more and very possibly finish the season with a winning record every now and then.  All I can say from being the head coach for 4 seasons that the kids will give you everything they got.  They will compete and they will play their hearts out every Friday night.  Jut look at Sectional of 2018  Madison with one win travels to a 6-3 Edgewood Squad.  Madison does lose but it is a ballgame the whole way through.  A break hear and there and Madison comes home with a victory.  (Edgewood won 28-19)

I came down in 2003 -  1st season 0-10   We had some injuries to some key players in weeks one and two.   I started majority freshman and sophomores.  As coaches know it is hard to win on Friday nights with your JV squad on the field.  We were defeated in the sectional by a very good Pat Parks Shelbyville team.

2004 - 0-10 Again.  However, we made strides  we were up 14 at half in week one.  They finally figured out where to run the ball at in the second half.  We lost 21-20.  Week 4 we are at Jeff.  Thy got PJ Thomas - all state baseball player and punter at QB  and Trey Burgess (future IU running back).  It is 4th and 4 under 2 min Jeff has just used their last timeout.  We are nursing a 16-14 lead.  We stuff their ISO play for a 2 yard loss.  Madison has never beaten Jeff.. We get called for a facemask.  Kid did not mean to do it but it happened.   Sectional we draw East Central.   21-17  East Central with 2 min to go  we are driving.   25 going in on a 3rd down play my Q throws an interception  they take it nearly all the way back and score late for the victory.  Their principal comes in to our locker room to tell us how much respect he has for our program.  How the fans at the beginning of the game were making plans for running clock and being able to get home early.  We also did not have 2 of our best players for that game.

2005- We start out of the gate 3-0 and are the WLKY team of the week.  Jeff week 4 Operation football and the whole 9 yards.  We make a miscue hear and there and lose by 14  very competitive game bounce back with a win vs JC and sit 4-1.  Get New Albany, East and BNL who are all ranked and they show us what we need to work on.  Play JC in sectional and get our first playoff win in a number of years.  Lose in the semi finals to a very good SD team who we had beaten in week two.  Our offense was potent that year.  Coach Ketchum went for it on 4th down every time to keep our kids off the filed.  My Q set the record for completions in a game that night 37   What is most impressive is he did that on 44 attempts.

2006 - A season of high hopes. Make some mistakes week one lose 21-8.  Week 3 we bounce back and beat a sound FC team.  Play through some injuries and such come in at 2-7 on the year. Lose to JC in overtime on a 4th down QB Draw.   We knew it was coming. Our kid just did not get low enough on the hit and their Q bulled into the endzone for the win.  could we have won more that year maybe but we played hard every week and we never gave up.

7 and 34 is not going to win anyone any coach of the year awards. However if you consider who the Cubs have to play week in and week out I call it respectable.  I have experienced great success in football as well as other sports prior to Madison.  I have experienced great amounts of success in football and other sports post Madison. And while at Madison I experienced success.  What means the most to me is all the great kids that I got to work with and be a part of their lives.  A majority of my former players are doing great things in all parts of the world.  A few of them I have stayed right at home. # 60 Patric Morrison would eventually become Madison's Head Football Coach.  Former All-State Lineman Ryan Lamb would join Patric as an Asst. Coach for the Cubs.  I got a big list of others that are near and dear to my heart.  I will not bore everyone with an already lengthy post.  Just know this.  Before you bash a program or suggest a team fold tent and give up... please consider all the factors. Consider the kids that give their time and energy to 40 guaranteed Friday Nights. Consider all the work the coaches put in.. not to win but to just be competitive and not be  embarrassed by a wide margin of defeat.  And consider all the parents and community that desperately want a winner and who support their teams no matter what the outcome.

Thanks

Mike Dowell

Why has Madison remained in the HHC?

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2 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

Why has Madison remained in the HHC?

Convenience and a cavalier attitude towards chronic failure.

 

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On 5/15/2019 at 7:22 PM, DT said:

By just about any measure, this program would be considered an abysmal failure.  

Has the school ever considered contraction?

Or has a move to a less competitive conference been considered?

If the kids are just choosing football to stay in shape and kill time before basketball season, there are many other more cost effective options

Maybe the new assistant AD will lead he program in the direction of potential contraction given the extreme challenges they face year in and year out

 

 

I think one of the things that I always wonder about when you go on a contraction rant is that there will always be a worst team. 

Do you think as teams contract that there will be parity among the group as to eliminate lower level teams? 

What would the final result of contraction look like?

A conference finish with 1 or 2 clear front runners and the rest somewhere around .500?

A realignment with teams following a bell curve-ish win loss total with high win teams at the top, most teams in the middle, and low win teams at the bottom with just less teams overall? 

I am sure some schools could and should contract but I don't think that decision should be based solely on win-loss record. 

Edited by coachfields
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Let's apply the "business model" to high school athletics because it has benefited and made public education so much better.  Bottome line is all that counts......profit, test scores, wins.  As someone that has slugged it out at some of the most under -performing football schools in Indiana I can tell you that what football gives these young men is way more than what winning a conference title does for some schools.  Athletic's value is not merited by its results but by the lives that have been transformed in the process of competition.  DT you have no idea what that means until you sacrifice your time, energy, sweat, tears, and your family to give and nourish these young men in these struggling schools.  I have coached at the pinnacle (Ev. Reitz) and at Wood Memorial, Brown County, and Eastern Pekin.  I will tell you that the most satisfying of my years coaching did not come in the Bowl but in the hills of Brown County, the cornfields of Gibson county, and the hollers of Washington County.  You sir have your opinion and you are entitled to it but it is grotesque and smells of affluence.  To all the struggling schools schools out there I say keep fighting the good fight!  You are my heroes!!!

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I think this issue plays out over time and resolves itself.

Those who are coming into power in the education hierarchy do not share the same passion for tackle football as their predecessors did.  Changing demographics, socio economic pressures, injury and potential long term disability concerns, and declining participation will all take their toll and contribute to whether schools decide to play on or contract.  Several schools have already taken a hard look at these challenges and made the decision to shut down struggling programs.  More are sure to come.  

The advancing encroachment of lay coaching is another indicator of deterioration within the sport at the high school level.

From an economic standpoint, chronic underachieving schools create problems within their own school corporations and for those who they compete with at the local level.  High school football is far and away the most expensive sport to offer to student athletes on the extra curricular menu.  Gone are the days when ADs could count on gate receipts and concessions to help fund other sports.  Attendance is abysmal and dropping year over year at staggering rates.  Online streaming will only exacerbate this trend.

How can a struggling school corporation like Frankfort justify the expense of staff, insurance, officials, equipment, travel, etc when the community is so apathetic toward the sport and numbers continue to decline year after year?  This scenario is playing out in many other high school communities across the state.

Yes, I do strongly believe that fewer schools will produce an elevated level of play.  Games will be more competitive and meaningful.  The threat of cancellation and postponement will be mitigated.  Severe injuries due to physical mismatch will decline.  many schools will free up valuable resources that can benefit a broader expanse of the student population.

I have said it before and Ill say it again.  ADs do not owe the high school football experience to their respective student bodies.  Football is a sport that demands resources far and above any other sport on the menu.  Prudent, cost effective decision making should replace maintenance of the status quo.  

 

 

 

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On 5/17/2019 at 4:58 PM, DT said:

Those who are coming into power in the education hierarchy do not share the same passion for tackle football as their predecessors did.

Where is your proof of this?  Specifically, you cited Coach Morrison should consider contraction.  Why?

On 5/17/2019 at 4:58 PM, DT said:

Changing demographics, socio economic pressures, injury and potential long term disability concerns, and declining participation will all take their toll and contribute to whether schools decide to play on or contract.

Valid points,if you don't factor in that football is safer than it has ever been.

 

On 5/17/2019 at 4:58 PM, DT said:

The advancing encroachment of lay coaching is another indicator of deterioration within the sport at the high school level.

This is true we are seeing more and more lay coaches, however this is due to the enormous responsibilities put on teachers.  High stakes testing, low wages and now new professional responsibilities all allow an opportunity for others outside the world of education to coach.  Take it from me lay coaches can be difficult to work with but they love the sport and want to coach it.

 

On 5/17/2019 at 4:58 PM, DT said:

Gone are the days when ADs could count on gate receipts and concessions to help fund other sports.  Attendance is abysmal and dropping year over year at staggering rates.  Online streaming will only exacerbate this trend.

Attendance might be down but I am pretty sure football games more than cover for their expenses.  If online streaming is an issue... Do not sign off on it.

 

On 5/17/2019 at 4:58 PM, DT said:

ADs do not owe the high school football experience to their respective student bodies.

You are correct.  An AD's job is to ensure school policies are being followed and to take recommendations to the other administrators school board.  Then the school board can decide what they want to do.  So if you want contraction to happen so bad, get yourself elected to a school board and make it happen.  Or you can just leave these schools alone and wait for the "I told you so" moment, which may or may not come. 

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You talked about attendance and online streaming.  It is an interesting concept.  Let us film your game  and run it live or on tape delay.   The school usually allows the radio/video entity to  do this for free in order to promote their programs.  Speaking for the fans (I think)  If I can stay home in my temperature controlled home and watch the game?  What a great idea.  I do not have to drive to the game or buy a ticket.  I do not have to buy any concessions and I can flip back and forth on the screen.  Now the forethought.  This may be another topic in itself.  Why doesn't the school create their own video dept or hire a company to do the game.   Say that expense is $500.  Now will the game to the Fans pay per view?  Subscribe to High School XYZ's website.  You can purchase a game or the entire season for a reduced fee.  How does that not generate revenues.  $500 outlay and a sell 200 viewerships for 10 dollars each.  Hypothetically that is $1500 profit. Do that for 4 or 5 home games and you are bringing  in 6000 to 7500 dollars.  do that in basketball softball and baseball and you are generating some serious revenues. not to mention the ability to sell Advertising.   Anyone know if any of the schools are doing this?

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13 minutes ago, Coach Dowell said:

You talked about attendance and online streaming.  It is an interesting concept.  Let us film your game  and run it live or on tape delay.   The school usually allows the radio/video entity to  do this for free in order to promote their programs.  Speaking for the fans (I think)  If I can stay home in my temperature controlled home and watch the game?  What a great idea.  I do not have to drive to the game or buy a ticket.  I do not have to buy any concessions and I can flip back and forth on the screen.  Now the forethought.  This may be another topic in itself.  Why doesn't the school create their own video dept or hire a company to do the game.   Say that expense is $500.  Now will the game to the Fans pay per view?  Subscribe to High School XYZ's website.  You can purchase a game or the entire season for a reduced fee.  How does that not generate revenues.  $500 outlay and a sell 200 viewerships for 10 dollars each.  Hypothetically that is $1500 profit. Do that for 4 or 5 home games and you are bringing  in 6000 to 7500 dollars.  do that in basketball softball and baseball and you are generating some serious revenues. not to mention the ability to sell Advertising.   Anyone know if any of the schools are doing this?

DT might be now.  LOL

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50 minutes ago, Coach_K said:

Attendance might be down but I am pretty sure football games more than cover for their expenses.  If online streaming is an issue... Do not sign off on it.

or charge a fee for it!

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4 hours ago, Coach Dowell said:

You talked about attendance and online streaming.  It is an interesting concept.  Let us film your game  and run it live or on tape delay.   The school usually allows the radio/video entity to  do this for free in order to promote their programs.  Speaking for the fans (I think)  If I can stay home in my temperature controlled home and watch the game?  What a great idea.  I do not have to drive to the game or buy a ticket.  I do not have to buy any concessions and I can flip back and forth on the screen.  Now the forethought.  This may be another topic in itself.  Why doesn't the school create their own video dept or hire a company to do the game.   Say that expense is $500.  Now will the game to the Fans pay per view?  Subscribe to High School XYZ's website.  You can purchase a game or the entire season for a reduced fee.  How does that not generate revenues.  $500 outlay and a sell 200 viewerships for 10 dollars each.  Hypothetically that is $1500 profit. Do that for 4 or 5 home games and you are bringing  in 6000 to 7500 dollars.  do that in basketball softball and baseball and you are generating some serious revenues. not to mention the ability to sell Advertising.   Anyone know if any of the schools are doing this?

I doubt there are more than 50 schools in the state that have a potential on line audience large enough to support any investment in this option

 

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3 minutes ago, DT said:

I doubt there are more than 50 schools in the state that have a potential on line audience large enough to support any investment in this option

 

If they are not able to support this, I think the program should be contracted immediately.

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I have a solution.

 

Swap Madison with Silver Creek. Let Silver Creek compete in HHC Athletics. Madison would benefit greatly from playing in the MSC.

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2 hours ago, Fkfootball said:

I have a solution.

 

Swap Madison with Silver Creek. Let Silver Creek compete in HHC Athletics. Madison would benefit greatly from playing in the MSC.

 

2 hours ago, Fkfootball said:

I have a solution.

 

Swap Madison with Silver Creek. Let Silver Creek compete in HHC Athletics. Madison would benefit greatly from playing in the MSC.

The HHC can go on with 7 schools

CE , NA, Jeff and FC would all benefit from some stiffer non con competition

 

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