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slice60

Special treatment? Why is Cathedral dropping to 4A?

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The Success Factor rule has been tweaked to lower the minimum from 3 points to 2 points for teams to remain in a higher class. Because of this rule change, Marquette remains in 2A Boys Basketball (Sectional Champs in 2018 & 2019) solely due to this change. 

So why is Cathedral football dropping from 5A to 4A after winning the 5A Regional in 2017??? Just like Marquette basketball, Cathedral football earned 2 points during the 2-year cycle that just ended.

Granted, the fall sports classifications were announced back in February but they made unusual adjustments for the Elkhart consolidation. So it's not like everything was set in stone.

 

APRIL 29 IHSAA NEWS RELEASE:

The group approved by an 18‐1 vote a modification to Rule 2.5, also known as the Tournament Success Factor. The result lowers the number of points needed (from 3 points to 2 points) by a school already playing in a higher classification to continue playing in that same class for another two years. Schools that win a regional championship in a single season or a sectional championship in back‐to‐back seasons would remain in that same higher class. The rule up to this point had required three points (two sectional titles and a regional title) to continue in that class.

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Changes in by laws are not retroactive. So, the points to stay in a class will be in effect for the upcoming 2 year period. The previous 2 year period had completed under the previous rules, so they go back to 4A.

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That by-law change had ZERO to do with Cathedral going to 4a.

Cathedral is in 4a because they did not earn enough points to stay in 6a, so they dropped down to 5a, also did not earn enough points to stay in 5a, so in this classification cycle, they were placed in the class per their enrollment. 

 

 

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This is an interesting question.  On the IHSAA listing of classifications for boys basketball it is noted that Marquette is remaining in 2A "Pending proposed change in Rule 2-5d school would remain in higher class".  

There were no provisions made for this situation in the football classifications (i.e. with Cathedral).

Basically it appears that the change to the rule was applied when reclassifying boys basketball and not for football.  

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1 hour ago, Coach Nowlin said:

That by-law change had ZERO to do with Cathedral going to 4a.

Cathedral is in 4a because they did not earn enough points to stay in 6a, so they dropped down to 5a, also did not earn enough points to stay in 5a, so in this classification cycle, they were placed in the class per their enrollment. 

 

 

So cathedral is just an average, everyday program like everyone else?

Interesting

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22 minutes ago, slicer28 said:

This is an interesting question.  On the IHSAA listing of classifications for boys basketball it is noted that Marquette is remaining in 2A "Pending proposed change in Rule 2-5d school would remain in higher class".  

There were no provisions made for this situation in the football classifications (i.e. with Cathedral).

Basically it appears that the change to the rule was applied when reclassifying boys basketball and not for football.  

EXACTLY!

They approved the change to 2pts at the same time that winter sports classifications were rolled out. So the lower 2 point minimum was applied & Marquette stayed in 2A. Apparently the IHSAA decided that they would not apply it to the fall sports even though Cathedral football earned 2 points in the same 2-year cycle.

I acknowledge that it would have caused changes to the football classifications. But frankly, Marquette has a very valid argument that (if it's NOT going to be applied to ALL sports) then the new 2-point minimum shouldn't come into play until the next 2-year cycle ends. When the basketball season ended, they had earned 2 points & the minimum was 3 points at that moment.

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

Changes in by laws are not retroactive. So, the points to stay in a class will be in effect for the upcoming 2 year period. The previous 2 year period had completed under the previous rules, so they go back to 4A.

That's not an accurate statement. Marquette boys basketball has been kept in 2A after earning just 2 points in the current cycle.

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3 hours ago, DT said:

So cathedral is just an average, everyday program like everyone else?

Interesting

As a member of IHSAA they are treated just like Rensselaer Central.    So yes  

Now of course they have a storied history of success, we can go in over and over and over again of what some feel are unfair parameters to P/P/Charters.   I am so exhausted from all of that I choose to ignore any and all. 

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You're right. I went with that "Special treatment" headline to draw attention.

It probably has nothing to do with the Cathedral (besides the fact that Cathedral football benefits from a drop to 4A) or any other school. But my main point still stands-- it seems illogical that the IHSAA changed the Success Factor minimum to 2 points but apparently only made it applicable to Winter & Spring sports. 

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On 5/22/2019 at 10:12 AM, Irishman said:

Changes in by laws are not retroactive. So, the points to stay in a class will be in effect for the upcoming 2 year period. The previous 2 year period had completed under the previous rules, so they go back to 4A.

So, if I team gets bumped up a class the two years prior, if they earn only two points they need to stay at that class??

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On 5/22/2019 at 3:40 PM, slice60 said:

You're right. I went with that "Special treatment" headline to draw attention.

It probably has nothing to do with the Cathedral (besides the fact that Cathedral football benefits from a drop to 4A) or any other school. But my main point still stands-- it seems illogical that the IHSAA changed the Success Factor minimum to 2 points but apparently only made it applicable to Winter & Spring sports. 

I disagree with the premise that a drop to 4A "benefits" Cathedral football.  It actually will hurt the program over the long term and impede the development of talent on roster due to the diluted level of competition.  

Im shocked that Cathedral would not simply petition to remain in the upper classes.  Rather silly for them to play 4A football given their access to talent in Indianapolis.  

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INDIANAPOLIS CATHEDRAL
FIGHTING IRISH
Coach: Bill Peebles, 6-6 in 2nd year at school, 80-71 in 15th year overall
DATE OPPONENT EASTERN TIME OA 0.0, DA 0.0
               
Aug. 23 at Noblesville 6A 7:00 pm    
Aug. 31 at Cincinnati Moeller (Ohio) 7:00 pm   St. Xavier
Sep. 6 at Cincinnati Elder (Ohio) 7:00 pm    
Sep. 13   Indianapolis Chatard 3A 7:00 pm    
Sep. 20 at Cincinnati St. Xavier (Ohio) 7:30 pm    
Sep. 27   Jeffersonville 5A 7:00 pm    
Oct. 4   Louisville Trinity (Ky.) 7:00 pm   TBA
Oct. 11 at Brebeuf Jesuit 3A 7:00 pm    
Oct. 18   Center Grove 6A 7:00 pm

I would say that these 9 games won't impede any D1 players aspirations or stunt program growth both in the short or long term.   

Also, development of players is not strictly 3 month period August thru November.   That is archaic thought, cmon man, Get with the Times Old Man 😎

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This has devolved into another discussion about Cathedral which is not what Slice60 was getting at.  

The basic question is why is the revised rule being applied to basketball and not to football?  The only reason I can think of is that the revision to the rule had been proposed prior to the reclassification for basketball so IHSAA took that into account when setting up the basketball classifications.

If the change in the rule for classification isn't going to be applied to football next season then maybe the change for participation quarters (54-3.1) shouldn't apply next year either.... (I am in no way advocating for that.  Just making a point)

Hopefully the IHSAA has recognized that this is an issue, and is discussing this now and they will either issue a revised football classification list, or they will explain why the rule change will not be applied.  I'm not sure if there are any other teams that this applies to, but I think the IHSAA needs to be consistent here.  Either both Cathedral football and Marquette boys basketball play up, or they both go back down.  

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I missed another one in Football! In addition to Cathedral, FW Snider is dropping down to 5A in football even though they earned 2 Points with back-to-back Sectional titles.

There will probably be a couple of bumped-up Baseball/Softball teams to earn 2 Points & stay up just like Marquette Boys Basketball.

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7 hours ago, slice60 said:

I missed another one in Football! In addition to Cathedral, FW Snider is dropping down to 5A in football even though they earned 2 Points with back-to-back Sectional titles.

There will probably be a couple of bumped-up Baseball/Softball teams to earn 2 Points & stay up just like Marquette Boys Basketball.

So if IHSAA would decide to apply the new rule to football like they did to other sports it would cause an interesting shake up in 5A and 6A.  FW Snider would remain in 6A next season and Cathedral would remain in 5A.  Due to the cap on the size of 6A this would push Valparaiso down to 5A starting next season and Bedford-North Lawrence down to 4A.  Then after the consolidation of Elkhart in 2020 they would move to 6A and Zionsville would dropped to 5A.

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I don't get this at all.  Why apply the new rules at the end of a two year cycle, but only to certain sports?  Either it should apply to all sports starting this new two year cycle, or it should apply to all sports just finishing the cycle. 

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I have only looked at these sports-- Football, Boys Basketball, Girls Basketball, Baseball, Softball. So if anyone has looked at the other sports (Volleyball, etc), please chime in.

As mentioned, two bumped-up Football programs earned 2 Points in the current 2-year cycle but the IHSAA has bumped them DOWN-- FW Snider from 6A to 5A, Cathedral from 5A to 4A.

In Boys Basketball, Marquette earned 2 Points (2 Sectional titles) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA is keeping them UP in 2A.

In Girls Basketball, no bumped-up programs earned 2 Points.

In Baseball, Lafayette Central Catholic earned 2 Points (2018 Regional title, lost in 2019 Sectional) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA will be keeping them UP in 2A.

In Softball, Gibson Southern earned 2 Points (lost in 2018 Sectional, 2019 Regional title) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA will be keeping them UP in 4A.

To my knowledge, there are no other bumped-up Spring sports programs which will be impacted by the recent change from 3 Minimum Points to 2 Minimum Points.

 

Quote

 

 

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IMO, the main reason is because the football class alignments had already been announced before the bylaw change was proposed and voted on (the sectional alignments had likely also been put together). I don't know if it would have affected any other fall sports (volleyball the most likely), but those schools did not move up, either. Only the winter & spring. 

Bobby Cox hinted at this when the "stay up" threshold was lowered from 4 to 3. In an interview with Bob Lovell several years ago, he said quite a few members considered winning a sectional in the higher class to be enough evidence of success to stay up. I'm not surprised at all it was lowered again to 2. 

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The thing is:  any change is going to make some people unhappy, and others it won't affect at all.  Someone is going to feel they were "screwed" over something.  Going off what Coach Nowlin posted, you look at that schedule and it won't' matter much what class Cathedral is put in.  I mean really, what other team in the state plays that type of schedule?  So they are in 4A now.  Just wait a couple of years and they will be back in 5A.  And that STILL won't make some people happy.

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Posted (edited)

Their schedule has nothing to with it when it comes to tournament time.  

 

I just can't figure out why they want to play a 6A schedule but then play a 4A tournament.  Trophies is the only explanation.

Edited by CaptainHook

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What if the IHSAA made a mistake and Cathedral has to stay in 5A?

What if the IHSAA had to realign football again? 

What if you asked around and see if this is the truth?

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10 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

Their schedule has nothing to with it when it comes to tournament time.  

 

I just can't figure out why they want to play a 6A schedule but then play a 4A tournament.  Trophies is the only explanation.

Isn’t everyone playing for a trophy?

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18 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

"easier trophies"

New Pal has been very, very good for awhile. 74-4 over the last 6 seasons. You do know they could elect to play up a class for better competition? Why do you think they haven’t done that? Easier trophies?

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13 hours ago, Bobref said:

New Pal has been very, very good for awhile. 74-4 over the last 6 seasons. You do know they could elect to play up a class for better competition? Why do you think they haven’t done that? Easier trophies?

Bob, do you think that IHSAA should apply the revised Rule 2-5d to the classifications for Fall sports starting in the 2019-2020 school year as they have done for winter and spring sports?

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The whole issue is the timing of the implementation....stinks for GS softball.

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